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Psychedelic and emphatogenic effects on narcissists/psychopaths?

Ne0

Bluelighter
Joined
May 24, 2008
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1,071
I've always wondered, what kind of experience would person with psychopathic or narcissistic personality disorder get from MDMA or LSD? Would he feel empathy to other humankind, would he see through her/his damaged and shattered ego on psychedelics, or would he get any other intro perspective effects? I've read that psychedelics may be helpful for this kind of personal disorders.
 
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Regarding narcissists, maybe just ask your peers?

Twenge and Foster also examined data nationwide among various age groups and data taken over 15 years at the University of South Alabama. They found the school's student population experienced a surge in narcissistic personality traits from 1994 to 2009. In 1994, 18 percent of students scored 21 or higher on the NPI. By 2009, 34 percent of students at South Alabama scored within that range.

http://news.discovery.com/human/narcissism-epidemic-college-students.html
 

I don't understand what you mean by "your peers", but anyway. Its the whole western capitalistic mindset that is psychopathic and egoistic. Only thing that matters is success, and you can use other people to success. It's not particularly a disorder in that way, as it's like wide cultural thing. Anyway I'm talking about real psychopaths and sociopaths, like serial killers and the big corporation bosses (not that they all are, but there are lots of these, they success good in short term).
 
I didn't mean your friends necessarily. You asked about narcissists and the narcissistic personality inventory rates a hefty chunk of the college-aged population as narcissistic, a huge jump from previous decades. Ergo, you probably know a narcissist, and maybe even one who has tripped with you.
 
I didn't mean your friends necessarily. You asked about narcissists and the narcissistic personality inventory rates a hefty chunk of the college-aged population as narcissistic, a huge jump from previous decades. Ergo, you probably know a narcissist, and maybe even one who has tripped with you.

Well, as I said I don't believe that these college kids really have narcissistic personally disorder. It's serious disorder that is caused by traumatizing child hood. It's more like that narcissistic behavior is successful in modern western world, so they have been taught to be egoistic. Person who has narcissistic disorder, is using other people for their needs/enjoyment, enjoy seeing other suffering, don't feel any empathy toward others, they are emotionally like little children, it's only them on this world, no one else matters. So it's like they're egos are really screwed up. Usually when they take alcohol or stimulants like meth or coke, they end up aggressive and moody (not that both of these long term can cause it on normal person too). So maybe good dose of shrmoos will kill their ego and they can repair it then?
 
Ne0, they are actually saying 34% of college students are like you described a person with narcissistic disorder. This is a fucked up country man.
 
I know of one documented psychopath that apparently went through 'LSD therapy'. As far as I can tell it didn't change a thing.

I've been interested in that subject for a while as well. Not sure what the results imply though...
 
Everybody is different. Ultimaltely, everybody reacts differently to different experiences.
For a psychopath or narcissist, a psychedelic experience could be anywhere from positive to traumatic.

It irritates me the way modern psychiatry/psychology has this tendency to want everything to fit into a textbook. Not everyone is a stereotype and can be easily labeled with a mental disorder.

I think that from a biochemical point of view, these college students are completely "sane". They simply have been conditioned their whole lives to adopt egoistical behaviours. This is what is considered normal in this culture. The values and cultural references themselves are flawed and corrupted. You don't need to look further than the media that is feeding their brains since birth: materialism, egocentrism, violence lust and envy.

"The video screen has become the retina of the mind's eye"
(Watch David Cronenberg's "Videodrome" for a nice early critique)

The society itself is mentally ill. These students are fine. Real biochemical or genetic mental disorders (psychopaths, mentally challenged, etc.) are rather rare.

The DSM-III tries hard, but in the end fails because it "wants" to diagnose a COMPLEX person with a SIMPLE disorder.
 
Psychedelic drugs have a tendency to prompt dramatic realisations in imbibers. I suspect that many bad trips are the result of such realisations or the discovery of uncomfortable aspects of a takers personality. Of course normal self reflection is not within the mental repertoire of many who suffer with the psychological complaints mentioned in the OP.
Thus a tripping narcisist might indeed understand that their behaviour is different from that of others, but whether they would find it distasteful in that frame of mind, as opposed to when unintoxicated - I personally doubt. I got no evidence for this really. I just doubt that a psychedelic drug can be expected to switch on morality in the mind of someone whose mental hardware lacks such components. Of course I'm probably wide of the mark, and I do believe psychedelics can have a very real healing role with some psychological issues, I just think it sounds a little bit like a high stakes experiment. What if the taker finds confirmation in their pathological perspective. This seemed to be the case for at least one of the classic nutjobs (Charles Manson).
I reckon that empathogens might be less risky on that level, but not sure if they would be very effective. Even if there were some kind of radical empathogenic epiphany, what kind of therapy would be required in order to carry it through into normal life?
It would doubtless be an interesting piece of research if it could be done ethically and safely.
The current research into the different area of treatment for PTSD looks much more promising. These people started from a mentally fit point of view before they suffered the traumas that caused their PTSD. It is more a case of facilitating the recovery and recalibration of their mental processes than the construction of new ones which have not previously been entertained.
I'd love to believe in redemption for all, but it seems there are always a few unreachable souls who to their and societies misfortune, just didn't come out with the normal moral equipment. Maybe we have to accept that this is going to be the case considering the infinite variation of potential personalities that can be realised by the human spirit.
Trouble with psyches is that I wish everyone could experience the moments of transcendence which they can give, but clearly they are not good for everyone. Bit of a riddle really.
Peace - Pipp
 
http://www.alternet.org/drugs/103379/?page=entire

The Johns Hopkins / Council on Spiritual Practices Psilocybin Study showed promotion of pro-social behavior following a single administration of the drug:

And Griffiths is impressed by the results of their 2008 follow-up study, which showed that the positive changes in outlook and behavior were lasting. "Unlike most behavioral change that occurs incrementally -- like learning to ride a bike, in successive steps -- mystical experiences appear to have the ability to reorganize human behavior and perception dramatically ... all at once," he says. "And that's what conversion experiences are -- experiences of great insight, or of religious meaning, that push people to reorganize their priorities, their perceptions of the world drastically. And they change in ways that are most often good -- altruistic, pro-social, and open to new experiences."
 
^Right, but the average age of the participants was around 45 I believe, and they were all interested in using psilocybin to have a significant spiritual experience. Using psychedelics isn't nearly so transformative for the average teenager, let alone a psychopath or narcissist. Psychedelics are mature persons' drugs that are ironically given up by most because they feel they've "grown out of them."
 
Great question. Psychedelics and mdma can increase and affect your empathy but if you're someone who has no sense of empathy to begin with, I doubt it will do anything drastic to their lack of feeling towards others. I could be wrong though. In fact, I hope I am wrong so we can someday have a potential treatment for people with personality disorders.
 
I haven't seen it do anything to a narcissist or psychopath that it doesn't do to anyone else.
 
I've tripped with a psyochotic multiple personality kinda guy and lets just say that he had quite the battle between his two selfs. Not a fun time for me. I hate having to trip-sit whilst you're tripping
 
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lsd amplifies your mind.

no one is a solid narsisist or psychopath, rather they are varying degreese, which means that they have a mixture of regular thoughts along with the personality disorder. lsd has the ability (as long as the person does) to show them things that will present them with new choices (just as any life expereince does).

the choice is still theirs to make.

it can make a clever narsisist impossibly tricky (to him/herself and to others) and exaggerate the illness to new levels or it can do as you proposed and shatter their egos and bring them down a train of thought that can help them live normal lives.

the devil will always be at the door.


if the empathy isnt genuine (and justly deserved or usefull with reason... how should i say... not feeding the ego, which btw a narcissist can find a way to make even empathy towards others feed the ego) then it will be just as superficial as any lie or trait of the disease. i say this from personal experience.
 
A lot of people would define me as narcissistic but i'm devout on loving everyone who cares to do the same back. i'm just a cocky guy, why not act like a hot shot?

i'll say it again, MDMA is not a "love drug" it's a potent amphetamine... i've done some not so virtuous things on MDMA and I can picture the indulgence factor overriding the empathic factor easily especially since there are several different stages of an MDMA high, including a sketch out period at the start of the crash.
 
My father is a narcissist and, naturally, I inherited his trauma. I say trauma because that's what narcissism is; someone who suffered a blow to their ego at a young age and created a "false self" to protect their wounded "true self". My father grew up on a farm with my hardass gramps who put him to work all the time and made him feel worthless, so he spent his life trying to prove how awesome he is to him. His callous, self-centered and demeaning attitudes hurt me as a child and I developed a malignantly narcissistic alter ego.

Thus, narcissism is a learned survival mechanism. Not really a disorder, but a totally rational response to trauma. Psychedelics, being a traumatic experience (HPPD being nothing more than PTSD), deals with this area.

You can see it in the body language of a narcissist. Every time they begin to feel a bit of emotion they quickly hide it away; you can often sense how intense the emotion is. They do this every time. They've done this for so long that they've forgotten who they truly are; they embody their false self. Because it's gone on so long, their true self has become immature and extremely fragile. If they were to give up their narcissism, they would be an emotional wreck and unable to thrive or perhaps even survive.

This is where psychedelics come in. A common phrase I uttered during my experiences was "you can't lie to yourself when you're tripping". I think this is true. It is also often described as a return to childhood. For me, a person with extreme narcissistic traits, it brought out my true self and made me unable to be my false self. I cry every time I trip. I explore forgotten traumas. I have a spiritual experience and find strength in my true self. After the experience is over, I remember what I learned and strive to be more honest (very difficult indeed).

Now, since psychedelics are unused in a therapeutic environment, we naturally don't see much healing going on. A "friend" of mine with antisocial personality disorder was a complete tool. A pathological liar. However, under the influence, his true self came out and he was incredibly friendly, fun to be around, and whenever his behavior was mentioned I could sense guilt and shame in him and he would say something like "I guess that does make me an asshole"...

When tripping, he had the insight. When not, he doesn't. He was afraid of the truth though and refused to explore the issue further. Perhaps in a clinical environment where he felt safe from social judgment (even though i wouldn't have judged him), he could have healed better.

I'm different though. I desperately desire to rid myself of this burden (which is what it really is--to be a narcissist is worse than to suffer the abuse I can assure you of that). I want to have real relationships, feel real love, be able to express myself honestly at all times. A few years ago I was completely unable to do this. Things have changed, though. I'm not all the way better by any means. But I continue on the path of "enlightenment". Healing is a long process and tripping allows you to see, truthfully, how close you are to being your true self again.

Problem is, the idea that I can "heal myself" with some drugs could conceivably be a narcissistic delusion on my part. I do not believe this is the case, but I can certainly see why one would think that. Perhaps it is one? Perhaps my grandeur and desire to be on the cutting edge drove me to find a simple truth? I can't say for certain. All I know is that it grants me the ability to be myself again. It allows me to work on my inner self and strengthen it so I don't need a false self to protect it anymore. It allows me to release those pains and weaknesses in a controlled setting.

Personally, I think I would have better results if an experienced psychonaut guided me through my trips. I don't have that really. I think using them on my own certainly helps tremendously, but I think the process would be much more dramatic and short lived with guidance, so I don't have to wander around near aimlessly in my own subconsciousness to find the epiphanies I'm looking for.

Psychedelics+therapy=the cure for personality disorders and addiction. I don't just believe this, but I know it from personal experience.

I'm not all better. I have a lot of work to do and I'll be working and healing for the rest of my life (during this process I also cleaned my diet up to heal an embarrassing and painful autoimmune condition I have--I am truly undergoing total physical/spiritual healing). As long as I know that I'm never perfect and never totally healed and I understand that it's a process, I don't think it's narcissistic to think I'm capable of healing.

Spread the word guys. Ego death, unsurfacing the true self, and spirituality=treatment for personality issues. It makes too much sense. It really does. And this is beyond behavior modification. It is healing the true self.
 
good post einzige..! quite informative....

i've been interested in this topic for a while, particularly with psychopaths. i'm an amateur psychologist to a degree, and my focus in studies was abnormal psyche. anxious to hear more...!
 
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