Proof for Reincarnation?

[bdomihizayka]

An interesting thought this provoked in me: if the self exists beyond this life, and we have a unique soul that reincarnates, what happens in the case where someone sustains massive brain damage and becomes vegetative, but still alive? Has their soul left their body? Does that person exist anymore, or have they become a hunk of meat? What happens to their soul/personality in the midst of that, still alive but not really alive?

My cousin suffered a traumatic brain injury and his personality took a complete 180. He is not the person he was before the accident. So what is the soul? Obviously it isn't personality.

Sorry for these three posts in a row- I tried multi-quoting and it wasn't working right.... or maybe I'm just retarded.

 

[infectedmushroom]

I lean towards reincarnation being a political tool. The king says to the slaves, "Don't worry (and don't rise up!).. next time around, you'll be king and I'll be a slave!".

My greatest fear is reincarnating on this planet though. One life time here is more than enough!

This is the main thing that's always deeply bothered me about reincarnation and caste-system ideologies. I'm of the firm conviction men are not poor or rich because of past lives, but because of how we structure and organize ourselves, while we're alive, now.

The predicaments humans find themselves in are our own creations first and foremost. To think the crippled pauper freezing in the cold will have a better shot in the next life to me is simply immoral. It's an attempt to admonish ones/our responsibility, which cannot and should not be done.

 

[Munchkoala]

Is it possible that the notion of reincarnation is merely a result of cognitive bias?

 

[infectedmushroom]

^Can you expound on that a little?

 

[swilow]

How do we know that these humans being reborn on earth didn't die on some other alien planet? And there's also the animal kingdom and plant kingdom as well- which both over-populates the human population on earth

That's true, I hadn't considered that. I guess most religions that espouse reincarnation don't seem to mention extra-terrestrials- but an interesting point.

Re: animal/plant kingdom. Given what we know about the flora, at least, its difficult to imagine a means by which a tree accumulates good karma to enable them to reincarnate as a human (assuming being a human is somehow a good thing/reward!).

I think there aren't many compelling reasons to believe in reincarnation, myself. I mentioned the 'unreliability' of children who seem to recall their past lives- given the vivid imaginative capacity of most children, it seems difficult to seperate a real experience from fantasy; indeed, many children do not distinguish between the two. I see reincarnation as wishful thinking (again, I cannot imagine why anyone would really want to go through this again...)

By the way, you can multi-quote and condense your thoughts to one single post.

 

[Munchkoala]

Is it possible that the notion of reincarnation is merely a result of cognitive bias?

^Can you expound on that a little?

Since there may be more to reality than only scientific knowledge, it seems to become increasingly effective to think in terms of heuristics - these heuristic principles form a local base of rationality that many seem to use, often leading to fallacious arguments...

Is this the case with reincarnation?

 

[infectedmushroom]

I believe so. Reincarnation is just one of the many answers to the overarching, recurring question, what happens we we die? It wouldn't surprise me if there were convincing scientific evidence some day soon as to what really happens. Reincarnation in some form or another in the biological/chemical/physical sense does seem up there in terms of possible explanations (much more so than heaven/hell for example.)

 

[Bagseed]

haven't read all of this, but me starting to study science (chemistry to be precise) also had implications on my spiritual growth.

first of all, science is just invention of concepts (never true to objective reality, which cannot be percieved by us), and looking which concepts match what we can see / measure best. so science is not looking for absolute truth, because this is impossible.

well the way I understood it, all is just energy in diferent states. matter is energy bound, and if you break matter, energy is released (eg dissociation of a chemical bond or radioactive decay). if you believe in the big bang theory, then before expansion of the universe started, energy was condensed into one single point, and matter only started to "condensate" as expansion went on.

so if all is essentially made up of energy, then all of the universe is the same at it's core. we are just states of energy in different places in spacetime (or something, physics and cosmology are not my strenghts ).

that's why I discarded the idea of reincarnation for myself, because if all is the same (energy), then there ultimately cannot be any difference between my soul and the others and a rock. we as human beings are energy evolved in spacetime to have consciousness and very complex behavior, and every human has their own "soul", but it only exists as long as you live, because after your death your energy will move on to some different state, and maybe ultimately be the "building block" to form another (conscious) being, maybe a cow.

I am aware that this sounds very materialistic, but to me it's not. it's the profoundness of now. I don't need "there" anymore, everything is "here".

PS: discovering Carl Sagan's Cosmos was also very influentual for me, I recommend it to anybody!

 

[Xorkoth]

This is pretty in line with what I think as well. And yeah, Carl Sagan's Cosmos is a glorious and beautiful show. The recent "remake" is also very good.

 

[relex_author]

A past life meditation

If you are wanting 'proof' of reincarnation there is a simple meditation you can do which will take you back to the moment of your last breath in your last life... it is the last page on my meditations PDF at http://www.slideshare.net/rowanmedhurst/meditations-47132034
but here it is for easiness.....

Be sure to be relaxed first...

• Take a few minutes breathing deeply somewhere comfortable like a chair or a bed. Get as relaxed as you can.. Now think about what you were doing earlier today. Visualise in your mind's eye what you were doing. After about 10 or 20 seconds, move to what you were doing yesterday, and do the same thing again. After 10 or 20 seconds of this, now try for a week ago. Then a month. Now 6 months ago. Then a year ago. Now 5 years ago. Now 10 or 20 years ago. Now imagine a moment in your earlier childhood, again for 10 or 20 seconds.
• Now imagine the moment just after your birth in this life. Again for 10 or 20 seconds. NOW, go back to the very last moment of your last life, just before your death. See what you get!

 

[relex_author]

Has anyone tried this yet? It would be interesting to see what you get. I got something first time (won't share until others do!). You can honestly just do the meditation while reading it.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Has anyone tried this yet? It would be interesting to see what you get. I got something first time (won't share until others do!). You can honestly just do the meditation while reading it.

Yeah, I actually gave it a go. I got stuck at a week ago. Not enough signal to noise from these subtle memories for me to pick it apart. I mean, my imagination pictures likely scenarios of what I was doing, and I trust my felt-perceptual body to chime in with an ah-ha if I'm on the right track but since it becomes challenging to discern what is real and what is story telling from a week ago I don't feel reassured enough taking the next few steps back in time. I suppose with practice.

While I don't submit it as proof for reincarnation, I've experienced deaths in my psychedelic explorations that felt intensely personal though it clearly wasn't me. I already believed in reincarnation before then but experiencing it in a trip solidified it for me. Obviously, I don't expect that to convince anybody.

Another technique that is useful to many is applied kinesiology (muscle testing) for mapping out these things, but you need to be very clear about what self you are asking. That clarity is a prerequisite for a meaningful answer that can guide one towards clarity.

 

[relex_author]

Yeah, I don't think it really matters if you can't really remember what you were up to. Certainly trying to remember what was happening just after you were born is probably made up. But the final step may surprise you with something very vivid. It did me!

 

[swilow]

What are your earliest memories (from this life)?

Its rare that I am believed, but I recall my father changing my nappy. I know exactly where I was in my childhood home, I remember the sunlight in that room and I remember mimicking my father's facial expression (which life and experience has lead me to interpret as manly disgust). I remember so clearly, he was concentrating (he was probably drunk or high) and had his tongue pressed against his upper lip, and I remember doing it back to him. I don't know how old I was- maybe 2 or so because I don't think I had only wet myself.

Actually a lot of my earliest memories are toilet related. I remember shitting my pants at my grandparents house and literally SCREAMING in dismay.... :D

 

[relex_author]

Lol that sounds great

My earliest memories are from about age 4 I think, once I fell down the stairs and once I stepped in a cat poo in a cupboard

 

[swilow]

^Nice one

What sort of cat poo's in a cupboard?? :D

 

[relex_author]

A lazy cat or one who used to know I used to hide in the cupboard

 

[yacob]

"reality is beyond our imagination's limits, its just too bad we limit reality with that imagination"....thats one of the best quotes that anyone has said, and its so painfully true especially with this theme of proving the "extraordinary". its easier to revert back to being a kid and believing in santa because it really makes you feel amazing


i think its really interesting and everything to at least explore possibilities even ones that really have no base outside of the imagination but anyone who "proves" that reincarnation is a real phenomenon are just lowering the bar of intellect on literally multiple levels. its like proving god exists, the term itself is so outlandish on every level that its essentially an oxy moron. the only thing keeping it from being literal is that you cant prove a negative because there cant be evidence of something that isnt there to leave evidence.
i mean use your imagination sure but dont play me to be a fool and tell me i can just blurt out my past life or that i have a soul just because complex emotions take place in my brain, im delusional enough as is without that. the reason people that believe in invisible shit have been so defensive throughout history is because when someone tells them their belief isnt real it brings them crashing back to the shitty reality and that enrages them to no end, which for most of our existence resulted in more deaths than anything else.
i just dont see how you can have an honest discussion on a larger scale when you perceive something so far fetched as part of your human experience. it just leaves the door open for anything to be your reality because there never was a standard other than how its making you feel, which is fine but dont look down upon someone or take it as a slight for not wanting to give your illogical theory any credibility.
its just not ok to sell a belief off as there being no possible alternative to the point you'd kill or die, thats mental illness and that same way of thinking leads to groups like isis who eliminate the "unpure" because theyre completely fucking bonkers.

nobody knows much, we never really can because of our brains. to us they seem big and powerful but on a big picture we really are just dumb apes who can barely grasp simple concepts most of the time.

just be honest with yourselves man, this human experience is too short to live in some shallow lie like that. the real thing is so much more breath taking, i mean look at some of those galaxies and shit thats crazy to think how they all collided to make spirals without a single fucking star touching another. are you kidding me? thats literally incredible, you cant even fathom that shit and it happens every second. how is that not enough for people?


not tryin to make an argument so dont take it as an attack but at least ponder that quote if nothing else

 

[relex_author]

"reality is beyond our imagination's limits, its just too bad we limit reality with that imagination"....thats one of the best quotes that anyone has said, and its so painfully true especially with this theme of proving the "extraordinary". its easier to revert back to being a kid and believing in santa because it really makes you feel amazing


i think its really interesting and everything to at least explore possibilities even ones that really have no base outside of the imagination but anyone who "proves" that reincarnation is a real phenomenon are just lowering the bar of intellect on literally multiple levels. its like proving god exists, the term itself is so outlandish on every level that its essentially an oxy moron. the only thing keeping it from being literal is that you cant prove a negative because there cant be evidence of something that isnt there to leave evidence.
i mean use your imagination sure but dont play me to be a fool and tell me i can just blurt out my past life or that i have a soul just because complex emotions take place in my brain, im delusional enough as is without that. the reason people that believe in invisible shit have been so defensive throughout history is because when someone tells them their belief isnt real it brings them crashing back to the shitty reality and that enrages them to no end, which for most of our existence resulted in more deaths than anything else.
i just dont see how you can have an honest discussion on a larger scale when you perceive something so far fetched as part of your human experience. it just leaves the door open for anything to be your reality because there never was a standard other than how its making you feel, which is fine but dont look down upon someone or take it as a slight for not wanting to give your illogical theory any credibility.
its just not ok to sell a belief off as there being no possible alternative to the point you'd kill or die, thats mental illness and that same way of thinking leads to groups like isis who eliminate the "unpure" because theyre completely fucking bonkers.

nobody knows much, we never really can because of our brains. to us they seem big and powerful but on a big picture we really are just dumb apes who can barely grasp simple concepts most of the time.

just be honest with yourselves man, this human experience is too short to live in some shallow lie like that. the real thing is so much more breath taking, i mean look at some of those galaxies and shit thats crazy to think how they all collided to make spirals without a single fucking star touching another. are you kidding me? thats literally incredible, you cant even fathom that shit and it happens every second. how is that not enough for people?


not tryin to make an argument so dont take it as an attack but at least ponder that quote if nothing else

It's just an experimental meditation. I had an extremely vivid response which was not imagined or in any way from my own brain or created by me. It just happened. I know someone who tried it who had nothing happen. I guess you haven't tried it, although... um, you probably wouldn't get anything, tbh. That is quite common so don't take it as an attack! Sorry.

 

[relex_author]

I would recommend trying it, that's all I'm saying.