Benzos PLZ Help!!! Vallium Taper Stuck

[liminal_j]

Hello everyone, thanks in advance for reading this and offering any help/suggestions are so greatly appreciated.

So I was prescribed Vallium 3x daily for PTSD in 2019 which I have taken every day, 15mg for a year (psychiatrist bumped to 30mg after a year but I only went up to 22.5mg 7.5 x3 daily).

In December of 2020 I was hit with tolerance withdrawal and every benzo symptom you can imagine.

After going up to the 22.5mg it had no effect I knew I was is in trouble. What began was a nightmare beyond comprehension that I am still living today.

I began using the Ashton Method and cut 2.5mg and kept a journal and pain 1-10 scale and logging how many days I've been on each taper. The following 55 days on just the first 2.5 cut were filled with hallucinations, depersonalizations, certainty of my own death, constant sweating from the palms, heart palpitations, psychosis, suicidal ideation, the works.

Around day 50 I was living alone (I'm 39) at the time I called and told my dad I needed to stay with him for fear of taking my life. I was with him for about a month and began tapering again this time 1 mg but had similarly horrific symptoms (bedridden, tremoring, hiding under my bed and feeling pain that words will never be able to describe) Another couple months passed and I got a liquid version of my cut dose and proceeded to cut .125 mg as I thought maybe I could just do mini cuts. Once again the same cycle of unbearable symptoms followed.

It has been a total of 10 months since the beginning of my taper journey, I have lost my apartment, my job, my father essentially said "you can't stay here this is too much for me" and I now live with my brother's wife.

Below is a list of medications/drugs I have tried or been prescribed, I have seen multiple psychiatrists as well as a neurologist, homeopathic doctor, and reiki healer.

Gabapentin: (seems to make me feel better than worse at even 100mg. My psychiatrist wants me to take a high dosage.)
Baclofyn: A few hours of relief at 15 mg doses but nothing great and I don't want to become dependent on another pharmaceutical but that might be unavoidable?
Clonidine: Shit.
Propanolol: Heart palpitations reduced but that's it and again don't want to polydrug
Prazosin: lowered blood pressure but not much else
Buspar: Currently taking 30mg daily as I was also prescribed that at the time of Vallium. Never seems to do anything
Phenobarbital: Neurologist suggested this and I took one 30mg pill and hallucinated and tremor symptoms worse they have ever been for about 5 days. Have not taken again since
Remeron: I am currently taking this 7.5mg morning and 7.5 night. Has helped sleep and appetite (I have lost 40 pounds in the last 10 months)
BCP-157: Peptide that has been shown to effect Diazapam tolerance, ordered and have taken for about 3 weeks now and have not noticed any differences
Micro dosing shrooms: Mild relief but only lasts a couple hours, I think Vallium minimizes the effects
Microdosing Amanita: The mushroom for which benzos are derived, have taken a micro dose a few times but have not felt any great relief compared to others on forums

I am now sitting at 18.8875 mg of V a day 10 months later only having been able to go down 3.whatever mg and am only now somewhat stable due to holding the taper and the Remeron but I am still suffering greatly and am in tolerance still but I can walk around and eat food and talk.

The past couple months I was stuttering and unable to formulate coherent sentences.

So here I am now in the present utterly traumatized by how long this has gone on, I consider myself to be able to have high willpower but the amount of unbearable suffering that I have gone through has left me utterly shattered and hopeless. I had considered going to a detox facility but the horror stories and length of time in Ohio is absurdly short (like 2 weeks max) and my symptoms don't usually start becoming "unbearable" until about 14 days probably due to the drug's half life.

I keep reading over and over about V being the magical taper benzo and everyone slowly weaning off of it but my body must be different. I have had genetic testing and other tests, I know I have a hyper rapid metabolism which I think might be why V has never lasted long for me at all. I tried switching over to Klonopin and that was a train wreck.

Lyrica is the only other option I haven't tried, I have an appointment with a Psychiatrist tomorrow and am debating whether to suggest this or any other med. He claimed he could taper me off in 10 months. Do you guys think that is possible? Is there something uniquely wrong with me? Does my PTSD and childhood trauma factor in to why this benzo taper is so horrific? One psychiatrist said I should address the trauma first but I have already completed CBT, EMDR, eat healthy, but out all alcohol, and meditate twice a day. What am I missing or doing wrong?

I feel ashamed, weak, so psychologically fragile and at a loss.

Thank you from he bottom of my heart for reading this and taking the time to respond. All the best,

J

 

[darvocet21]

Hi J,

First of all welcome to bluelight. I'm a big fan of Diazepam. I like Oldies But Goodies.
That's a pretty extensive menu of brain changers. Did I overlook the toad Venom? Seriously I would ditch the Buspar, stop f****** with amanitas, use mirtazapine only if you can't sleep in other words don't take it everyday, and it will be a more effective sedating medication that way. Since you won't be able to take Benadryl your going to need all the sedating medications that you can safely take that don't end in the letters -am.
Keep filling the phenobarbital script, that will come in handy maybe not now but it's an excellent anti- convulsive anti-seizure medication and probably the least addictive barbiturate. I'm surprised to hear that you hallucinated on it I actually think that maybe it was something else but it could have been. No need mixing with diazepam which I hate to break it to you but you know your best days with that are behind you. Basically benzodiazepines should be prescribed 14-21 days max PRN and even that's probably too long. I'm a complete hypocrite for saying that though because I take 2 mg clonazepam and have for the past 3 years and although I always have extra left over I would like to be done with it. Let me go back up to the menu see if I missed anything

Cut out all those beta blockers, hypertension drugs, chemicals that only have letters and numbers, and just keep them in the drawer. You want to have all this is your pharmacopoeia but right now you're taking way too much s***. Although I do I understand that you have special issues with respect to PTSD.
Are you a veteran? I have a good friend who served in both Afghanistan and Iraq who also suffers with PTSD. However he prefers the meth therapy.

By the way that is the sickest calculation ever of a diazepam dose you've worked it out to the 4th decimal place...! OCD Much? Oh you're going to fit in just fine here. In about a year or two you'll be responding to some green lighter who has their diazepam dose calculated out to the FIFTH decimal place.

By the way just to f*** with your mind a little bit in a friendly way you do know that generics can vary from batch to batch and even tablet to tablet. So you cannot even get close to the sort of accuracy you're fixated on. Which actually has less to do with a dose than the drug. Valium has just too much reinforcing ability regardless of the dose. Along w Xanax it's the hardest benzo to self taper. It has the fastest come on besides Xanax which is just plain evil. Incarnate. Especially those bars.

If you can get on lorazepam you can transition right away I don't know what the correspondence is but just go 1:1 equipotent.

It has a slower onset a medium duration of action and a smoother curve. + half-life ~10-15 hours. Most of all it will not get you high even if you take a lot of it.. triple the amount will make you tired. This is key. You sound like you're really ready.

I can vouch for it because I spent a few weeks in a psych ward as a guest of the State of California and my Lorazepam small dose every 4-6 hours was psychologically reassuring but I have no idea whether it did anything or not it might have been a placebo for all I know... upon getting out into sober living only a few nights of restless legs and other symptoms was all I suffered before I began to sleep normally. This was after three and a half weeks I'm not even sure if I was tapered. They did give me several drugs including Gabapentin which made me feel all rubbery and I didn't like it but the worst one was Zyprexa. Complete garbage.

I see you have a really open mind with respect to non Western approaches to Medicine. Go to an acupuncturist. I don't know what they do or how they do it but they will help you make Leaps and Bounds.

18 or 19mg is not a huge dose in 24 hours. But it doesn't really matter what dose the drug is not the one to taper with. Even clonazepam would be better however that's longer-lasting. So your best bet is Lorazepam. Just take a simple step down once a month whatever you decide and split into 4x/daily dosing

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Good reply what 'darvocet21' wrote. What can I add just go slow. If your not taking those blood pressure drug's for the reason's they are prescribed for, indeed drop em. or taper them. But not when you actual have them for bloodpressure.

Phenobarbital, although a dangerous medication. Could be useful once you feel stabilized. so saving them seem's like a wise move but i have no clue about how you handle your drug's. Be aware od-ing on it solely is possible unlike benzo's.

 

[cdin]

You are not alone. This is almost identical to my experience wding from diazepam after PTSD diagnosis. PTSD is essentially a TBI to the gaba/glutamate axis. the benzos help when on it, but as you have found - damage an already degraded system. Tapering took me about 8/9mos (it was too fast, but i had no Rx so i was out of options) and it was absolutely horrific. I had come off them multiple times prePTSD and it was no big deal, this was a different beast entirely. I've been using amanita off and on as well. I have had mixed results, if I decarb good material really well, it was really useful to me on on actual dosage drop days, i would end up taking a gram or two and be able to shed a milligram a lot easier, but I got concerned about ANY ibotenic acid as it is so nuerotoxic, so until I get my pyrex dish in the mail and can simmer for 3h at 3ph, I'm not going to take any. That being said - what actually helped was using microdose psilocybes/stamets 7 mix/niacin 3x daily to repair the damage. I didn't find that until I had gotten through the taper, so I'm not sure if it will work well/be tolerable while tapering.

PLEASE STOP THE BPC!!! It's really uncanny how similar our situations are. after long experimentation i found it to be EXTREMELY damaging to my taper and set up the kind of response you are describing. also avoid NALT while tapering GABA drugs. I also second the others here -- too much shit. (an RN in the hospital told me that once looking at my chart). I would get it to just diazepam and use the baclofen and prop only in emergencies/maybe only on actual drop days.... avoid ketamine and nmda antagonists at all costs. They upregulate glutamate. with such a critically downregulated gaba system --- it's a disaster, I know from experience. I jumped off at 2mg after 8 month taper (had to stabilize after the effing BPC ) and it was hell. Sat shaking for days with 911 dialed in the phone and hospital bag packed / BP cuff on my arm. But I made it. at about 9 mos i started not to feel like my fingers were plugged into a 110v socket. I am still healing/working with my PTSD, which is a lifelong process. Zen meditation has been extremely helpful after getting my fight/flight systems to turn off finally. It did require getting through the thick of it to be able to get started though. DM me if you like, I completely feel for your situation. I will also say - the pain and brain cooking was worth it to get to the other side. and it DOES get better. It just takes a lot of time/good food/not doing ANYTHING.

 

[liminal_j]

You are not alone. This is almost identical to my experience wding from diazepam after PTSD diagnosis. PTSD is essentially a TBI to the gaba/glutamate axis. the benzos help when on it, but as you have found - damage an already degraded system. Tapering took me about 8/9mos (it was too fast, but i had no Rx so i was out of options) and it was absolutely horrific. I had come off them multiple times prePTSD and it was no big deal, this was a different beast entirely. I've been using amanita off and on as well. I have had mixed results, if I decarb good material really well, it was really useful to me on on actual dosage drop days, i would end up taking a gram or two and be able to shed a milligram a lot easier, but I got concerned about ANY ibotenic acid as it is so nuerotoxic, so until I get my pyrex dish in the mail and can simmer for 3h at 3ph, I'm not going to take any. That being said - what actually helped was using microdose psilocybes/stamets 7 mix/niacin 3x daily to repair the damage. I didn't find that until I had gotten through the taper, so I'm not sure if it will work well/be tolerable while tapering.

PLEASE STOP THE BPC!!! It's really uncanny how similar our situations are. after long experimentation i found it to be EXTREMELY damaging to my taper and set up the kind of response you are describing. also avoid NALT while tapering GABA drugs. I also second the others here -- too much shit. (an RN in the hospital told me that once looking at my chart). I would get it to just diazepam and use the baclofen and prop only in emergencies/maybe only on actual drop days.... avoid ketamine and nmda antagonists at all costs. They upregulate glutamate. with such a critically downregulated gaba system --- it's a disaster, I know from experience. I jumped off at 2mg after 8 month taper (had to stabilize after the effing BPC ) and it was hell. Sat shaking for days with 911 dialed in the phone and hospital bag packed / BP cuff on my arm. But I made it. at about 9 mos i started not to feel like my fingers were plugged into a 110v socket. I am still healing/working with my PTSD, which is a lifelong process. Zen meditation has been extremely helpful after getting my fight/flight systems to turn off finally. It did require getting through the thick of it to be able to get started though. DM me if you like, I completely feel for your situation. I will also say - the pain and brain cooking was worth it to get to the other side. and it DOES get better. It just takes a lot of time/good food/not doing ANYTHING.

Hey man thanks for the reply! I appreciate you sharing your experience it sounds like their are a great many similarities between our path.

Can I ask how many mg of Valium you were tapering?

I've never tried NALT, I've been using the BPC for about 3 weeks and have not noticed any negative effects if anything I think it's helping slightly. I am taking that in capsule form, were you injecting it? I've looked into Ketamine infusions but have a needle phobia so never have pursued it it lol.

I do think while our situations are similar in the end your's and mine's individual body is going to react to any "helper meds" BPC Amanita etc. differently. I definitely agree with you on the PTSD gaba/glutamate axis and benzos. It's unreal. Amanita I had less success with for example as well as micro dosing shrooms, haven't tried those in months. It sounds like both of us put a lot of time to trying to find things to help, anything lol.

My starting to take Remeron while not wanting to go on an antidepressant and having been on them previously has enabled me to eat and sleep, 2 things that I have not had and was pushing me to the brink of insanity. The Remeron has also greatly reduced my tremors, slurred stuttering speech, and ability to walk where before I was falling down even going to the bathroom.

Right now I am holding my Valium dose because I ended up having an extremely traumatizing experience a few weeks ago with my family at a loss driving me to Tennessee to take me to a detox center only to find out they were an ultra rapid detox center after being lead to believe it was a PTSD dual diagnosis longer term inpatient facility. Despite that and partly because we had already driven there my family began pressuring me to go in triggering Psychosis and panic attacks where I was literally dying. I collapsed on the ground resigned that this was my end until at the last minute my brother and mom said "we can't do it, you are coming home."

I also practice zen meditation! twice a day can't survive without it.

I use baclofyn and all the other meds my psychiatrist and neurologist have given only "as needed", I find baclofyn to help with depersonalization spells, gabapentin 100mg works then I feel like shit so I only take it if I'm having severe suicidal ideation.

other than Remeron and buspar (buspar was prescribed at the same time as the Valium but it literally does nothing so I am phasing that out). Was taking 45mg Buspar now at 30mg and will soon be off it no problem.

Right now I am taking daily just the Remeron, Buspar (tapering off), and Valium (down to 18.8875 mg from 22.5 mg).

I do take supplements Omega 3, Tumeric, Magnesium, Ashwhaghanda, Multivitamin, and B-vitamin but I have taken those supplements for years and don't really want to make changes to those as they have served me well and before the Vallium I was living medication free only taking herbs vitamins meditating and doing yoga. I miss those days.

I think everyone has a breaking point, my mom actually gave me the Remeron in the midst of psychotic breakdown in Tennessee where I was dry heaving in a trash can and screaming to die. I guess what I mean to say is I am trying not to create more layers of anxiety or guilt on myself for taking something because I am already so hard on myself and feel constant guilt and shame.

I am also in trauma therapy and Reiki healing though the talk therapy seems to just make me feel exhausted so I am considering holding off on the therapy for a bit because I tend to put a lot of pressure on myself and not be gentle or loving towards myself (childhood abuse).

Thanks again for reaching out with a response, both of us have a bond in a way that no one on the outside looking in can ever truly understand.

One question I was going to ask was I am at the point now where I've lost everything in my life and feel like I need something to look forward to in the future. I have an Master's degree and want to get a PhD and there are open applications for next fall 2022. I would need to fill out the application by January 2022 but I was thinking that maybe if I had something in my life to aim for it could help accelerate my healing? Or do you think it would be too soon?

I've been out of work living with my family for 10 months and my savings is quickly being drained to nothing so I also feel this immense pressure at 39 about to turn 40 to have some kind of outlook on the future to give me hope.

Thanks so much again for taking the time to talk, it means a lot.

 

[simstim]

Gabapentin was the first drug that helped me with my PTSD. My doctor started me on 300mg 3x daily for fibromyalgia and all of a sudden I didn't feel the need to carry weapons everywhere I went when I was home alone. It wasn't until a couple of years later that I got on Valium.

My problem with tapering was having seizures. I never experienced shakes or hallucinations or anything like what you guys are describing. I was on 20mg/day for like 5 years and was able to taper off in 10 days with no seizures. I tried 5 and 7 days but had seizures.

 

[liminal_j]

Gabapentin was the first drug that helped me with my PTSD. My doctor started me on 300mg 3x daily for fibromyalgia and all of a sudden I didn't feel the need to carry weapons everywhere I went when I was home alone. It wasn't until a couple of years later that I got on Valium.

My problem with tapering was having seizures. I never experienced shakes or hallucinations or anything like what you guys are describing. I was on 20mg/day for like 5 years and was able to taper off in 10 days with no seizures. I tried 5 and 7 days but had seizures.

See for every person telling me not to take anything and grit through the 9th dimension of hell is someone saying gabapentin saved them. Do you think the reason I am feeling shitty after taking one 100 mg pill every once in a while is because it isn't enough? Did you use the gabapentin to get you off the Valium? Thanks for sharing.

 

[simstim]

Gabapentin has a different mechanism of action than Valium so no I didn't use it to get off Valium. I was on gabapentin first. At one point I was prescribed 4600mg a day

 

[pally pete]

See for every person telling me not to take anything and grit through the 9th dimension of hell is someone saying gabapentin saved them. Do you think the reason I am feeling shitty after taking one 100 mg pill every once in a while is because it isn't enough? Did you use the gabapentin to get you off the Valium? Thanks for sharing.

Pregabalin is generally superior to Gabapentin if you can get that? It has helped me in the past massively with some of my benzo withdrawal symptoms.. But unfortunately, I soon became physically dependent on them as well... Also 100 mg of Gabapentin is a very small dose. I was/am prescribed 600 mg per day of Pregabalin, which is roughly 4-5 x stronger than Gabapentin.

You're currently going through hell... so keep going

 

[liminal_j]

Pregabalin is generally superior to Gabapentin if you can get that? It has helped me in the past massively with some of my benzo withdrawal symptoms.. But unfortunately, I soon became physically dependent on them as well... Also 100 mg of Gabapentin is a very small dose. I was/am prescribed 600 mg per day of Pregabalin, which is roughly 4-5 x stronger than Gabapentin.

You're currently going through hell... so keep going

Pregabalin is the one I am considering, do you think the relief is worth the physical dependence? I just feel like I can't go on without a pain "bridge" to get me through. I feel like if I can just get off the benzo then I can wean off the Remeron and Pregabalin after.

I cold Turkeyed off Paxil and other stuff no prob but this... with the PTSD, it's just not bearable and I feel ashamed to admit that.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Yeah pregabalin/gabapentin aren't benzos. The tolerance to pregabalin high builds extremeely fast. No other drug matches this increase in tolerance - and it seems that there might be, on a receptor level, varying mechanisms involved.

 

[pally pete]

Pregabalin is the one I am considering, do you think the relief is worth the physical dependence? I just feel like I can't go on without a pain "bridge" to get me through. I feel like if I can just get off the benzo then I can wean off the Remeron and Pregabalin after.

I cold Turkeyed off Paxil and other stuff no prob but this... with the PTSD, it's just not bearable and I feel ashamed to admit that.

Don't feel ashamed to admit that.
It takes more courage to expose your own perceived weaknesses, than it does to hold it in. Although, I personally would not consider this a weakness. I'm also stuck in an unbearable hell, thanks mostly to Benzos, if I had more courage I would have most certainly taken my own life.

I can't say swapping benzo withdrawal for Pregabalin dependency is worth it... But I do know that benzo withdrawal is a living hell, so severe, so brutal and relentless - that escaping/reducing any of the symptoms for any amount of time is all we can wish for - however we achieve that.

So, on balance I would say, maybe give Pregabalin a try... It won't completely sort out your symptoms 100%.. But it can help.

 

[darvocet21]

Gabapentin has a different mechanism of action than Valium so no I didn't use it to get off Valium. I was on gabapentin first. At one point I was prescribed 4600mg a day

I didn't believe it when you told me then you showed me the pic from when you're on that much.

 

[simstim]

I didn't believe it when you told me then you showed me the pic from when you're on that much.

That's 4600mg of gabapentin not diazepam

 

[darvocet21]

Yeah pregabalin/gabapentin aren't benzos. The tolerance to pregabalin high builds extremeely fast. No other drug matches this increase in tolerance - and it seems that there might be, on a receptor level, varying mechanisms involved.

I think @acklac7 a Charming fellow and one who has become overwrought with his fixation on meth needs to talk to someone calm and cool like you. By the way what does plumbus symbolize as much as digging deep and finding the suffering souls in need of help, carrying them on wings of angels out of hell into what Wittgenstein referred to as Realms of unspeakable Beauty

 

[darvocet21]

That's 4600mg of gabapentin not diazepam

I know don't get all cocky

 

[darvocet21]

That's 4600mg of gabapentin not diazepam

Want to hear something funny, 10 years ago I couldn't even give away Gabapentin... I was in downtown LA some homeless guy asked me for money and I said no I didn't have any but I did have a big bottle of gabapentin and he just laughed and walked away

 

[simstim]

I know don't get all cocky

I didn't intend to come off as cocky.

 

[darvocet21]

I didn't intend to come off as cocky.

You're not even half as cocky as @tweakerguy

 

[liminal_j]

Don't feel ashamed to admit that.
It takes more courage to expose your own perceived weaknesses, than it does to hold it in. Although, I personally would not consider this a weakness. I'm also stuck in an unbearable hell, thanks mostly to Benzos, if I had more courage I would have most certainly taken my own life.

I can't say swapping benzo withdrawal for Pregabalin dependency is worth it... But I do know that benzo withdrawal is a living hell, so severe, so brutal and relentless - that escaping/reducing any of the symptoms for any amount of time is all we can wish for - however we achieve that.

So, on balance I would say, maybe give Pregabalin a try... It won't completely sort out your symptoms 100%.. But it can help.

thanks a lot man really appreciate it