Opioids Opiates Do Cure Depression More Effectively Than Anything else with a proper regimen

[Kid Amine]

Nothing to add here except a possibility of where this myth originated: years ago, I read online that Russian doctors/scientists/researchers were looking into opiates for depression. I dont recall any specifics, or what (if anything) became of said studies/trials/talk. I'm sure there are more than a few doctors in any country prescribing opiates for this. While I agree it's a bad idea, I also think current antidepressants are fucking garbage so looking for something else is going to happen.

Two things Ive learned:

1) Drugs cannot fix situational things that are depressing, such as death of a loved one, loss of a job, etc
2) Drugs cannot fix bad memories.

There's also treatments with other drugs that may have led to the 'opiates for depression' craze/rumor. Read up on MDMA, the testimonies given when it was emergency scheduled in the US in particular. and gd, look at the number of people prescribed basically speed for ADHD.....

 

[Kid Amine]

may sound sick to say but thats cool as shit; not sure if you noticed but I have Layne Staley as my avatar for this site; the BEST "grunge" musician to EVER come out of Seattle. fucking guy loved dope more than me somehow and had the fucking money to rip that shit for years and years before eventually ODing from a speedball.

not sure if you know the story behind the guy but its a pretty good read and all about dope and how it took THE BEST EVER down and just made him hide away from all and shoot dope daily and eventually OD and found his body 2 weeks after it all happened just laying there w/ needles and shit around it.

hes not why I got into dope but AIC is always a band I was obsessed w/ and once I started doing opiates I started to listen to their DIRT album more and more and man, just listen to that shit, its pretty fucking insane shit for a dope fiend to hear. all VERY TRUE STUFF and he just says it straight out. check out JUNKHEAD by Alice in Chains. live version listen to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9GAEFTeWko

I dont even have to click the link to quote you the lyrics. The whole damned song is awesome. DIRT was the best CD of the 90s, period.

"Nothin' better than a dealer who's high
Be high convince them to buy.....YEAHHHHHHHH!"

 

[Jabberwocky]

ha, right there makes me love you, man! that fucking performance is THE BEST EVER! even WOULD at that show was fucking INSANE! Layne was on point; the drugs didnt quite hit him just yet.. but he sure was high as a motherfucker singing in those days. even OD'd after a few shows back in the day.

"are you happy?!?! I am man
content and fully aware

money, status, nothing to me
'cause your life is empty and bareeeeeeeeeeeeeeee"

 

[Jabberwocky]

and one last line, only cuz its the best for junkies

"whats your drug of choice?
well, what have you got!?
I dont go broke
and I do it a lot
I do it a lottttttttttttttttttttttttttttt"

 

[Mad Dash]

I've been around since those days too - I miss phreex & crew. The one positive trend I've noticed over the years is that the regulars have gotten much wiser. Several years ago we'd have threads with OP asking about doing heroin for the first time and everyone would just give HR advice on how to get high but nowadays that same style thread will invoke a chorus of posters telling OP reasons why they should abstain. It's quite the 180 turnaround from what things used to be like and the way things are on other drug-related forums where getting the most fucked up without dying seems to be the only goal.

It must be our generation I guess, we all went through the crazy shit together learned from each other's mistakes. Built sticky threads, did the research, did time, lost friends, got sober, relapsed, etc... Now it seems like most of us are on bupe in one way or another, some sort of benzo, and an ssri. Or there are those that are still holding on to the addiction. But back in the day we definitely knew we were getting high we just didn't care about the consequences. It was like by the time we hit our 30s we would just explode like a supernova into glorious nothingness. I knew I said it myself all the time. "shit I doubt I will even make it to 35." And here I am almost 30. Now all those years of living on the edge catch up to you and you don't now how to back down. When getting high couldn't provide enough I quit that shit and signed up and went to war. Then I got all fucked up and now the gov't has me on more pills than I ever use to be on. But this new generation of users... opiates are the best antidepressants? What has happened to the world? 13 y.o. using perks for depression and end up addicted. I feel like I have already lived a lifetime in 29 years, yet I still have not found a way to hold back the tears...

 

[szuko000]

^ well the other thing that must be taken into consideration is ours, the generation thats just approaching 30, is the first to have the internet at a young age. I think ours is a good mix between using the internet but not being reliant on technology so we know a world before texting and mobile internet. But really what did it is the instant access to knowledge and data. Before you couldnt get a million first hand accounts of how bad heroin is or HR now you get all that in 2 seconds or less.

The bad side is that miss information is spread just as quickly as real information and usually as bad info appeals to people more it is more readily accepted by less informed people. All it takes is one 18 year old who is hailed by his friends as being "smart" to say "opiates cure depression" and that misinformation can spread like wildfire especially among those who do not look into things themselves. Also who doesnt want to believe that as opiates are great at making you feel good.

But years of being blasted with first hand accounts probably is why the landscape changed. 10 years ago it may have been that HR was the best way to go about it because we were all helping each other discover something and as time progressed we discovered that HR doesnt hold a candle to abstaining. Its just a theory I created but i think our instant access to information and feedback has made our understanding way different then those before us.

Back to the topic at hand, therapy and SSRIs (for some) cure depression. Its like anything in life if you want it you gotta fight for it, even happiness. Everyone is out to help themselves and sometimes you have to fight to be happy.

 

[Mad Dash]

^ well the other thing that must be taken into consideration is ours, the generation thats just approaching 30, is the first to have the internet at a young age. I think ours is a good mix between using the internet but not being reliant on technology so we know a world before texting and mobile internet. But really what did it is the instant access to knowledge and data. Before you couldnt get a million first hand accounts of how bad heroin is or HR now you get all that in 2 seconds or less.

The bad side is that miss information is spread just as quickly as real information and usually as bad info appeals to people more it is more readily accepted by less informed people. All it takes is one 18 year old who is hailed by his friends as being "smart" to say "opiates cure depression" and that misinformation can spread like wildfire especially among those who do not look into things themselves. Also who doesnt want to believe that as opiates are great at making you feel good.

But years of being blasted with first hand accounts probably is why the landscape changed. 10 years ago it may have been that HR was the best way to go about it because we were all helping each other discover something and as time progressed we discovered that HR doesnt hold a candle to abstaining. Its just a theory I created but i think our instant access to information and feedback has made our understanding way different then those before us.

Back to the topic at hand, therapy and SSRIs (for some) cure depression. Its like anything in life if you want it you gotta fight for it, even happiness. Everyone is out to help themselves and sometimes you have to fight to be happy.

well said. Can't believe I will be 30 in March lol.

 

[Conspirator]

Clarifying my first post

I would really appreciate it if you would read both the OP as as well as this one completely in order to get the full idea, plus I even used HTML symbols and I'd hate to see my hard work go to waste


I apologize for not being clear enough in my first post about what I have found and the idea. I was very tired when I wrote it. I am suggesting very tiny doses. A dose of 10ug intravenously is about what infants, less than one year old, hell even less than one week old, would receive for pain. I said 10-50ug not meaning to just take your pick of dosage, but instead based on opioid tolerance. Just for reference, 10µg fentanyl citrate (the most common salt of fentanyl) is ≤ 630µg of morphine, assuming it's iv'd. If you were to take 10 µg fentanyl intranasally, you would absorb at max 90%, but realistically I'd say 75% because at least some will seep down your throat even if aerosolized.

Much depression isn't just caused by serotonin deficiency, but is also caused by dopamine and/or endorphin deficiency. I am suggesting that opioids may be effective at treating dopimine and/or endorphin related depression. If one's depression is caused by serotonin and dopamine deficiency, one could take a SSRI along with an opioid. I suggested fentanyl due to it's short half life. A doctor friend of mine told me a theory that as soon as an opiate wears off, the body attempts to compensate by producing more endorphins, but only so long as the body isn't constantly in a state where there is a high level of non bodily-produced opioids in the brain. So it may be possible that in the body's attempt to compensate, it produces slightly more natural opioids, as well as having a tri-daily boost.

Dopamine based depression is debilitating. It makes it where nothing you do ever feels worth it. In severe cases, it's almost like living in a state of constant cocaine comedown; not fun. The withdrawal from the drugs used to treat it, such as wellbutrin, aren't much if any better than opioid withdrawal. Opioids also seem to accomplish the job better than medicines for dopamine related depression.

Now, I'm not saying that opiates are the answer to all depression, but specific targeted types that are either dopamine or endorphin related. I'm also not suggesting anyone to take large doses. I'm suggesting micro-doses, so to speak. Dosages this low are unlikely to produce any significantly pronounced withdrawal symptoms, and those symptoms, should they arise, can be almost fully diminished with the use of 900mg gabapentin every 8 hours and a benzo, personally I use valium.

dude Fentanyl Sucks!!!! and opiates don't cure depression, have you ever been in wd? have you ever gone CT? have you ever been to hell?

Is your giant letter some sort of an Appeal to Loudness? Fuck off

I suffer from chronic pain and take upwards of 5mg fentanyl per day, and whenever I have cold turkied The gabapentin and valium stopped pretty-much all of the symptoms. The only real noticable symptoms were moderate weakness, and minor hot/colds. (no worse than a fever)

I posted this simply for informational purposes and for discussion. I wasn't trying to "Appeal to Loudness" so I'd appreciate it if we could be civil and polite to one-another like most everyone else here.

 

[emjay]

I would really appreciate it if you would read both the OP as as well as this one completely in order to get the full idea, plus I even used HTML symbols and I'd hate to see my hard work go to waste


I apologize for not being clear enough in my first post about what I have found and the idea. I was very tired when I wrote it. I am suggesting very tiny doses. A dose of 10ug intravenously is about what infants, less than one year old, hell even less than one week old, would receive for pain. I said 10-50ug not meaning to just take your pick of dosage, but instead based on opioid tolerance. Just for reference, 10µg fentanyl citrate (the most common salt of fentanyl) is ≤ 630µg of morphine, assuming it's iv'd. If you were to take 10 µg fentanyl intranasally, you would absorb at max 90%, but realistically I'd say 75% because at least some will seep down your throat even if aerosolized.

Much depression isn't just caused by serotonin deficiency, but is also caused by dopamine and/or endorphin deficiency. I am suggesting that opioids may be effective at treating dopimine and/or endorphin related depression. If one's depression is caused by serotonin and dopamine deficiency, one could take a SSRI along with an opioid. I suggested fentanyl due to it's short half life. A doctor friend of mine told me a theory that as soon as an opiate wears off, the body attempts to compensate by producing more endorphins, but only so long as the body isn't constantly in a state where there is a high level of non bodily-produced opioids in the brain. So it may be possible that in the body's attempt to compensate, it produces slightly more natural opioids, as well as having a tri-daily boost.

Dopamine based depression is debilitating. It makes it where nothing you do ever feels worth it. In severe cases, it's almost like living in a state of constant cocaine comedown; not fun. The withdrawal from the drugs used to treat it, such as wellbutrin, aren't much if any better than opioid withdrawal. Opioids also seem to accomplish the job better than medicines for dopamine related depression.

Now, I'm not saying that opiates are the answer to all depression, but specific targeted types that are either dopamine or endorphin related. I'm also not suggesting anyone to take large doses. I'm suggesting micro-doses, so to speak. Dosages this low are unlikely to produce any significantly pronounced withdrawal symptoms, and those symptoms, should they arise, can be almost fully diminished with the use of 900mg gabapentin every 8 hours and a benzo, personally I use valium.




I suffer from chronic pain and take upwards of 5mg fentanyl per day, and whenever I have cold turkied The gabapentin and valium stopped pretty-much all of the symptoms. The only real noticable symptoms were moderate weakness, and minor hot/colds. (no worse than a fever)

I posted this simply for informational purposes and for discussion. I wasn't trying to "Appeal to Loudness" so I'd appreciate it if we could be civil and polite to one-another like most everyone else here.

People didn't misunderstand you, they knew exactly what you meant, and it's absurd rationalizing. That's all it is.

Also, the idea that opioid use ever somehow make your brain produce MORE natural opioids might be the wrongest thing I've ever read on this site.

Your post is reckless and irresponsible. And goes against the very idea of harm reduction that this forum is built on.

 

[Conspirator]

I didn't mean to post 2 posts but I couldn't edit the first one.

 

[Conspirator]

^ well the other thing that must be taken into consideration is ours, the generation thats just approaching 30, is the first to have the internet at a young age. I think ours is a good mix between using the internet but not being reliant on technology so we know a world before texting and mobile internet. But really what did it is the instant access to knowledge and data. Before you couldnt get a million first hand accounts of how bad heroin is or HR now you get all that in 2 seconds or less.

The bad side is that miss information is spread just as quickly as real information and usually as bad info appeals to people more it is more readily accepted by less informed people. All it takes is one 18 year old who is hailed by his friends as being "smart" to say "opiates cure depression" and that misinformation can spread like wildfire especially among those who do not look into things themselves. Also who doesnt want to believe that as opiates are great at making you feel good.

But years of being blasted with first hand accounts probably is why the landscape changed. 10 years ago it may have been that HR was the best way to go about it because we were all helping each other discover something and as time progressed we discovered that HR doesnt hold a candle to abstaining. Its just a theory I created but i think our instant access to information and feedback has made our understanding way different then those before us.

Back to the topic at hand, therapy and SSRIs (for some) cure depression. Its like anything in life if you want it you gotta fight for it, even happiness. Everyone is out to help themselves and sometimes you have to fight to be happy.

As I've stated in both my first post and this one, I'm not suggesting that one should take high doses, I'm suggesting that tiny doses may have a positive effect on dopaminergic and/or endorphin related depression. I'm not spreading misinformation, perhaps I should have titled the thread differently. SSRI's work fine for depression caused by a lack of serotonin, but do nothing for dopamine and endorphins. Most drugs for dopaminergic depression have bad side effects and withdrawal very similar to opioid withdrawal. At the levels of opioid i'm suggesting taking, when discontinued there should be little to no withdrawal at all, and stopping every two weeks to clear your system will help prevent tolerance and prevent severe dependence.

 

[Mad Dash]

As I've stated in both my first post and this one, I'm not suggesting that one should take high doses, I'm suggesting that tiny doses may have a positive effect on dopaminergic and/or endorphin related depression. I'm not spreading misinformation, perhaps I should have titled the thread differently. SSRI's work fine for depression caused by a lack of serotonin, but do nothing for dopamine and endorphins. Most drugs for dopaminergic depression have bad side effects and withdrawal very similar to opioid withdrawal. At the levels of opioid i'm suggesting taking, when discontinued there should be little to no withdrawal at all, and stopping every two weeks to clear your system will help prevent tolerance and prevent severe dependence.

Dependence is not dose related. It is about addiction and the person taking it. Someone might take that dose and feel great and follow your regimen but then soon that becomes not enough for them and then the cycle begins. The idea of treating depression with ops is so dangerous because the cycle of addiction is a hairline trigger. Using ops as anything more than a last ditch effort for anything chronic is a nightmare. Ops are for Chronic and ever lasting pain where addiction is the least of your worries or short term acute pain and then get off them quickly and that is it. Anything else is sure to cause addiction in people who respond well to ops.

 

[Conspirator]

Dependence is not dose related. It is about addiction and the person taking it. Someone might take that dose and feel great and follow your regimen but then soon that becomes not enough for them and then the cycle begins. The idea of treating depression with ops is so dangerous because the cycle of addiction is a hairline trigger. Using ops as anything more than a last ditch effort for anything chronic is a nightmare. Ops are for Chronic and ever lasting pain where addiction is the least of your worries or short term acute pain and then get off them quickly and that is it. Anything else is sure to cause addiction in people who respond well to ops.

10μg of fentanyl citrate thrice daily is a lower net daily dose than an infant would receive... Hell, anyone old enough to say "fen-ti-nil" couldn't catch a buzz on that dosage.

Do you think any grown man or woman could get hooked on <5mg hydrocodone daily, i sure don't, my grandmother takes about one a day and can go without whenever without going through withdrawal.

 

[PotatoMan]

Opioids/Opiates turn me into an asshole after the high. Angry irritable asshole. I fail to see this treating depression.

Maybe DXM as it has a potent active metabolite even after the high.

 

[Mad Dash]

10μg of fentanyl citrate thrice daily is a lower net daily dose than an infant would receive... Hell, anyone old enough to say "fen-ti-nil" couldn't catch a buzz on that dosage.

Maybe so. But like I said, when that dose stops working, they go up, and as that trend continues, evetually they start to realize, WOW I really like this drug effect it really feels GREAT! If you want an example of this just look at Tianeptine. Literally created as a mood stabilizer/antidepressant. And then people started feeling good when they increased the dosage. And now it is slowly becoming a big problem in different parts of the world. Some countries made it a controlled substance. And it is not even an opiate at all!

 

[kosmokramer]

I must be missing something?
Is this any different than using some of the classic antidepressants?

If there is a pill that does cure depression after a few uses and then can be stopped without the symptoms returning I would love to hear about it.

What happens when you stop taking prescribed antidepressants? No withdrawal symptoms at all right? Oh yeah...
Do they "cure" anything? Or do you just keep taking them as prescribed for, who knows how long. The rest of your life?

I don't claim to have the answers, but I know if a person has to take medication everyday for the foreseeable future i would take the one that makes me feel good at the same time, tolerance be damned.

op I'm assuming is an adult and free to make his own decisions and deal with the consequences. Its cool of everyone to be so supportive though.

I must admit I'm a bit cranky today and some of the comments in this thread seem pretty shitty to me, but hey free country right?

(Commence various insults)

 

[sekio]

Do they "cure" anything? Or do you just keep taking them as prescribed for, who knows how long. The rest of your life?

That's actually a long standing myth. There's a significant percentage of people who use antidepressants only transiently (e.g. 6 months to a year) while they get their emotions in check and into a more stable lifestyle and then they discontinue them. Think about it, if you're too depressed to even get out of bed in the morning, you may need something to give you the motivation to accomplish things in your life to the point where you can get up in the morning.

Not everyone who goes on antidepressants will need to keep taking them, and not everyone who discontinues them will have hellish withdrawals.

And even if you do have to keep taking antidepressants the rest of your life, so what? Isn't that preferable to living in misery? (If you can come up with that against anidepressants then there the same argument for avoiding retroviral treatment for HIV, or immunosupressants for organ recipients - they're fucked anyway?)

If there is a pill that does cure depression after a few uses and then can be stopped without the symptoms returning I would love to hear about it.

NMDA antagonists (e.g. ketamine) do this in some people.

 

[Mad Dash]

I must be missing something?
Is this any different than using some of the classic antidepressants?

If there is a pill that does cure depression after a few uses and then can be stopped without the symptoms returning I would love to hear about it.

What happens when you stop taking prescribed antidepressants? No withdrawal symptoms at all right? Oh yeah...
Do they "cure" anything? Or do you just keep taking them as prescribed for, who knows how long. The rest of your life?

I don't claim to have the answers, but I know if a person has to take medication everyday for the foreseeable future i would take the one that makes me feel good at the same time, tolerance be damned.

op I'm assuming is an adult and free to make his own decisions and deal with the consequences. Its cool of everyone to be so supportive though.

I must admit I'm a bit cranky today and some of the comments in this thread seem pretty shitty to me, but hey free country right?

(Commence various insults)

No insults but here is where I believe you to be mistaken. If you run out of antidepressants, yes you can go through some really bad WDs and the symptoms will return. However, with opiates when you run out depending on how addicted you are, that is never the end of the line. Would you be willing to risk life and liberty by doing an armed robbery at a pharmacy for prozac? or ANY medication for that matter that is not scheduled? Not likely... Would you do it for opioids? Maybe you wouldn't but people do it every day? I have lied, cheated, and stolen from those that I love most in my life to support the use of my opiates. But if my viibryd ran out, I would not even CONSIDER doing that. Opiates ruin lives. and that is about the sum of it. Even for those who need them.

 

[emjay]

I must be missing something?
Is this any different than using some of the classic antidepressants?

If there is a pill that does cure depression after a few uses and then can be stopped without the symptoms returning I would love to hear about it.

What happens when you stop taking prescribed antidepressants? No withdrawal symptoms at all right? Oh yeah...
Do they "cure" anything? Or do you just keep taking them as prescribed for, who knows how long. The rest of your life?

I don't claim to have the answers, but I know if a person has to take medication everyday for the foreseeable future i would take the one that makes me feel good at the same time, tolerance be damned.

op I'm assuming is an adult and free to make his own decisions and deal with the consequences. Its cool of everyone to be so supportive though.

I must admit I'm a bit cranky today and some of the comments in this thread seem pretty shitty to me, but hey free country right?

(Commence various insults)

The difference is that opioids soon stop making you feel fantastic unless you keep taking bigger and bigger doses, and it's just unsustainable. Why do you think so many people who become dependent see it as their #1 regret? No good comes of chasing the feeling, none whatsoever.

 

[Conspirator]

not really. they may temporarily reverse depression but they are absolutely not a treatment.

nobody takes morphine, says "oh I'm not depressed now" and then never has to take it again... after the morphine wears off you will get depressed again.



because you're still high on fentanyl. after 45 minutes there's still drug in your system. and fentanyl is very potent.



well, maybe you missed the last 200 years of prior research (i know it's easy to miss) but this is a totally stupid method for "treating" depression.

for instance, if you do fentanyl 3x a day every day for 2-3 weeks and you stop doing it... you're going to mysteriously "get the flu". and get really angry, and sore, and not want to do anything. (opioid withdrawal) and your depression will very likely come back with a vengeance.

First of all, the doses I mentioned... 10μg of fentanyl citrate isn't enough to make any adult, hell even an adolescent feel anything. It's about the same dose of fentanyl that they use to treat newborns and infants, toddlers get more... Also, via the intranasal route, 10μg 3 times per day is equal to 1.4mg of IV morphine daily, or slightly less than 5mg hydrocodone... Is it possible to get severely physically dependant on vicodin shavings in 2 weeks? I doubt it. My grandmother takes 5mg oxycodone almost every day, and she doesn't suffer any withdrawal when she doesn't take it, so why should someone who likely weighs more than she (she's small figured) and is younger and in overall better health suffer from withdrawal?

Second of all, "The half-life is up to 65 minutes when given by intranasal route." ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3090376/) therefore, the drug leaves your system rapidly when used intranasally. This is why I suggested this particular ROA.

Third of all, Where is the last 200 years of prior research of using short-acting micro-dosed opioids specifically to treat depression? I'd be very inclined to read that.