Novel empathogen Cyclo-Methiodrone (TCAT)

[roi]

My report was for Cyclo-Methiodrone straight from the lab. I've no idea if anyone supplies legit Cyclo-Methiodrone currently. Time will tell, if someone decides to make more of it and reports are positive then we know what happened here.

Until then, calm down with the pitchforks and start contributing instead of randomly spreading hate everywhere.

 

[adder]

Bluelight isn't in the business of worrying about what vendors will or won't do. If he tried this compound, he has every right to report his experience on it. If you have your own experience that isn't consistent with his, then feel free to report on your own.

I think you're wrong here. Even though RCs are zealously discussed here, I'm sure most of long-time members would agree with me that we don't really want a shitload of untested compounds flooding the market about which less and less is known about. I think the problem is a serious one, I've been recently seeing weirder and weirder compounds being tested. It gets problematic because, while for instance with most cathinones we had something to extrapolate from, structurally novel compounds have completely unknown toxicity. Many people don't realise it but it may suddenly turn out that one of these has extreme consequences and no matter how sorry you might be afterwards it just won't help. There's always a risk, sure, but there is no way you could assess it with new compounds structurally unrelated or hardly related to classes of compounds that we already know about.

Obviously new analogue acts have a lot to do with it, but let's not blame only one side. RC's business is about money like any other business, but it differs in that it may have a dramatic impact on people's health, so it should automatically come with great responsibility. Thus the quality and not the quantity should be definitely the deciding factor. The revenues for the people behind this are enormous, so perhaps such entrepreneurs should invest into more serious research if they want to introduce completely new classes of compounds, and not only treat people as if they were lab mice (it's always people's choice, sure, but I have some doubts whether they always make a fully conscious decision, I caught myself on taking too much risk without proper analysis first more than once). I'm sure we'd all like to have harmless alternatives, so why not get down to it as it should be done, with facts and not just subjective effects? There's still a great number of small molecules with potentially psychoactive effects, statistically they can't be all good and harmless.

 

[Solipsis]

I think comparison with benzophenone is unfounded or at least terribly premature. TCAT lacks a second aromatic system that would warrant that analogy, if you draw this comparison now it is basically about the benzoyl moiety which is rather ubiquitous. For one,you would then have to include all cathinones as well.
I don't think piperidine can participate in the same resonance states to make any radical like that etc.

It's just ring-closed / constrained keto MPA, though that modification seems to kind of make it into a league of its own. It may not be a safe substance for whatever other reason, and I don't want to protect TCAT - that does not help me in any way. I'm interested in the truth.

Yeah it is worth asking why be enthousiastic about this compound, but don't accuse roi just like that.. totally not cool. He just likes novel chems. I agree though, everyone should be careful and we should not like them all, too much or too early.

 

[adder]

Likewise you gave free publicity to the vendor who has this, in effect you just caused a ripple that will damage many, look at benzophenone toxicity to the liver and kidneys. Why do you think this is funny?

I do agree this is free publicity to the vendor if all you get in exchange are free samples as it's a disproportionately low payment compared to potential profits from the sale of RC's and potential risks for those testing them. Honestly, it's no payment at all, it's just like mice getting free cocaine or heroin in exchange for the data about the effects. If you want to test something new as a potential product, it's your own risk of losing money that you invested if it turns out to be a non-event, that's how it works in proper research. Getting free samples of untested compounds is really no payment at all, so unless it's not your only payment, I don't understand why you'd post free advertisements. It's not only irresponsible, it's just naive. I received a few free samples myself and at first I honestly thought I'd get some money for reporting back, however, I never published any reports on any public forum and after I got side effects from one compound which, judging by the structure, seemed fairly safe, I starting wondering about the attitude of people who use naive users to build their income with as little contribution as possible. And if anyone is going to mention NENK or 2-MK again, then I'll repeat myself - I haven't earned a single penny on them and never meant to, if it turned out so worthless for you and you want to blame someone for the money you've lost, then blame ruthless people who thought they could easily get rich using the popularity of ketamine and someone else's ideas that they didn't confirm themselves in the first place.

As for the comparison with benzophenone's toxicity, yeah, it's premature. This compound is simply unknown at the moment, it's hard to say whether it's harmless and worthwile at the same time or toxic and useless. And once again I want to stress that I'm not picking at anyone personally, so please don't take my words as an attack unless you really have a reason to feel to be the addressee.

 

[Zeds(NCO2CH2CH3)2]

I apologize for skipping ahead but the major phase 1 metabolites are the oxidation of the thiophene ring to 5-Hydroxy thiophene and the oxidation of piperidine to the pyridine. More likely to occur as ketone bridge is adjacent. Likewise biaryl keto or aryl cyclo keto bridge systems hydroxy metabolites of danger. Bis phenol I. E

Therefore stay away from this.

Thank you adder and others who are explaining my strong feelings toward the research chemical system at the moment. We have an anecdotal report in ADD portraying vendor publicity and no data, no spectra, with a second report from someone who is obviously not well off whether from the drug or other I cannot say.

Irregardless now the original poster and his friends are mad that there is a speculation of danger on this.

Bluelight is harm reduction not fun-induction, pure speculation is great but when Roi comes here publicizing vendor products as coke and ecstacy.. Really..That is not an honest report..

That is all I have to say on this thread, take my speculation as flame if you are that offended but the RC market is growing to a really bad place. First it started with shulgins compounds and jwh, now it's a free for all and the death counts are slowly rising in this past decade. This is like one of those obsessive posts trying to find the new mephedrone which was finally deemed very unsafe for use after all of the damage it caused.

Have fun rationalizing your way out of this haha

Zedz

 

[InterestingFACT]

I apologize for skipping ahead but the major phase 1 metabolites are the oxidation of the thiophene ring to 5-Hydroxy thiophene and the oxidation of piperidine to the pyridine. More likely to occur as ketone bridge is adjacent. Likewise biaryl keto or aryl cyclo keto bridge systems hydroxy metabolites of danger. Bis phenol I. E

Therefore stay away from this.

Thank you adder and others who are explaining my strong feelings toward the research chemical system at the moment. We have an anecdotal report in ADD portraying vendor publicity and no data, no spectra, with a second report from someone who is obviously not well off whether from the drug or other I cannot say.

Irregardless now the original poster and his friends are mad that there is a speculation of danger on this.

Bluelight is harm reduction not fun-induction, pure speculation is great but when Roi comes here publicizing vendor products as coke and ecstacy.. Really..That is not an honest report..

That is all I have to say on this thread, take my speculation as flame if you are that offended but the RC market is growing to a really bad place. First it started with shulgins compounds and jwh, now it's a free for all and the death counts are slowly rising in this past decade. This is like one of those obsessive posts trying to find the new mephedrone which was finally deemed very unsafe for use after all of the damage it caused.

Have fun rationalizing your way out of this haha

Zedz

Bluelight is a harm reduction forum, like you said. Harm reduction means giving people whatever advice they can use to minimize personal injury while making choices that are possibly not in their best interest.

I have no objection to you criticizing this compound on the basis of it's theoretical metabolites, dirty receptor targeting, or anything else.

I have an objection to you criticizing the person who created this thread for doing so. Assuming he isn't lying, he possesses and has consumed this compound. Apparently he even likes it. How is it in this interest of harm reduction to deprive him of the ability to share his observations and discuss the possible characteristics of the compound he possesses?

This is advanced drug discussion. If we can't DISCUSS drugs here then there's no point in this subforum existing. And a thorough criticism of the compound itself based on its structure does just as good a job of warning away would-be guinea pigs as calling someone a shill with blood on his hands.

Speaking of bloody hands: this compound has already been synthesized. I think there's a much stronger argument to be made against the threads in this forum dealing with completely novel, never-before-synthesized, structures. You do realize that vendors comb that kind of theoretical discussion on this site and others for ideas, right?

If anyone does something stupid on bad advice, it's a shame. But frankly open discussion of risks outweighs the theoretical benefit of concealing knowledge.

 

[InterestingFACT]

I think you're wrong here. Even though RCs are zealously discussed here, I'm sure most of long-time members would agree with me that we don't really want a shitload of untested compounds flooding the market about which less and less is known about. I think the problem is a serious one, I've been recently seeing weirder and weirder compounds being tested. It gets problematic because, while for instance with most cathinones we had something to extrapolate from, structurally novel compounds have completely unknown toxicity. Many people don't realise it but it may suddenly turn out that one of these has extreme consequences and no matter how sorry you might be afterwards it just won't help. There's always a risk, sure, but there is no way you could assess it with new compounds structurally unrelated or hardly related to classes of compounds that we already know about.

Obviously new analogue acts have a lot to do with it, but let's not blame only one side. RC's business is about money like any other business, but it differs in that it may have a dramatic impact on people's health, so it should automatically come with great responsibility. Thus the quality and not the quantity should be definitely the deciding factor. The revenues for the people behind this are enormous, so perhaps such entrepreneurs should invest into more serious research if they want to introduce completely new classes of compounds, and not only treat people as if they were lab mice (it's always people's choice, sure, but I have some doubts whether they always make a fully conscious decision, I caught myself on taking too much risk without proper analysis first more than once). I'm sure we'd all like to have harmless alternatives, so why not get down to it as it should be done, with facts and not just subjective effects? There's still a great number of small molecules with potentially psychoactive effects, statistically they can't be all good and harmless.

You're kind of arguing past me here, friend.

I don't want untested compounds flooding the market either. Once you get away from simple substitutions on well-researched scaffolds, the potential for a disaster goes way up.

It's a real problem. It's a serious problem. And it's great that people are worrying about it. But censorship--at least on bluelight--is absolutely not the answer.

Not wanting new compounds on the market =/= not wanting them discussed. And fine, if you think that discussing novel compounds is contributing to their eventual production and possibly their eventual abuse, then it's your moral obligation not to do so. (though I would argue that there is in fact more good to be had by participating intelligently--urging suitable caution--than there is by simply refusing to participate.)

However, your personal beliefs, whether they are consistent with mine or not, and whether they are consistent with the majority of long-term members or not, are ultimately just your beliefs.

Bluelight has an explicit mission. Zed trying to shame roi for posting this thread is blatantly working against that mission.

 

[Shaal]

and i'm superstitious about eating things with thiophene rings in 'em. being smaller than phenyl rings they are even more promiscuous in their binding. i won't touch MPA either.

Could you please explain why / how this is an issue?

 

[Zeds(NCO2CH2CH3)2]

Interestingfact:
Let us both agree that we cannot conclude that the OP had actually taken this compound without an NMR Spectra, a normal analysis method. Spectra are which this sub forum is based entirely on, without confirmation then we cannot conclude that the drug was administered therefore any encouragement of usage of said drug without an accurate report is not harm reduction. My shaming of him was a result of his conflicting posts with appear unclear if he had taken the drug, see the post notably the Walter white post in which he seems to inexplicably admits the post was not real...? Very confusing indeed.

Thiophene compounds are okay but as a substrate they can be oxidized to the thiophene s, s dioxide, and the 5-hydroxy thiophene which could then be oxidised again to the quinone as a result of the ketone bridge. There is a risk of reactive oxygen species as a result, many compounds exhibit hepatic, renal, intestinal danger because of this.

My main concern which I suppose many new members to this forum do not understand is that posting anecdotal reports without any studies claiming high efficacy and euphoria without backing it up with even an NMR Spectra. That is not science, that is not advanced drug discussion. Discussing compounds and theoretical effects are fine, but making strong claims on awkward random compounds is not safe nor advanced drug discussion. It's fishing.

There are multiple cases of new drugs being advertised on bluelight by vendor affiliates which actually turned out to not be the chemical at all and thereby caused a great deal of panic and confusion. These are not isolated cases they are recurring constantly and extremely dangerous. Bluelight encourages freedom of information unless blatant misconduct and in this case it cannot be said, perhaps I jumped the gun, then again myself and other older members do not like to see people getting hurt. Random drugs are NOT fun and games, so let's not publicize mdma/cocaine effects on unconfirmed drugs sold by a single vendor. Also the notion of the combined effect of these is somewhat ironic nonsense. Have you ever combined mdma and cocaine? They compete at the dopamine transporter for one. Meh now this thread is drama but to anyone who reads this I hope you understand anecdotal reports are not advanced drug discussion...

 

[roi]

If your point is that this does not belong to NPD - I was actually asked by a moderator to post new substances here instead of OD/PD.

A RC subforum would probably be a good idea.

On the substance itself: Come up feels like a usual stimulant, followed by 70 minutes of a strong serotonin dump, comedown feels like 20mg amphetamine, the latter is probably based on the thiophene as the lipophilic part of the compound.

By the way: Even NPD is not /that/ nerdy for the most part. There are other forums if you fancy such dicussion.

 

[Shamanism]

NPD isn't actually a great improvement, despite the more in depth discussion here with often pretty acurate speculation/prediction regarding effects / pharmacological properties, possible toxic metabolites or other aspects by looking at the structure. Brephedrone and Clephedrone come to mnd, these things can be addressed sooner and could be much more accesible than here or in OD where topics get snowballed under fast.

Some RC's (that roi posts) are quite obscure or are yet relatively unkown, which is great ofcourse! NPDers should play a vital part in these discussions..

But the average punter wouldn't look here nor have the patiance to filter through the NPD discussion parts that go over their head..

So...YES, a dedicated RC sub-forum combined with accessibility and where the important info is available (think reowid substance vault) in a first post with key points regarding dosing effects etc.. would be great.

 

[Shaal]

Thiophene compounds are okay but as a substrate they can be oxidized to the thiophene s, s dioxide, and the 5-hydroxy thiophene which could then be oxidised again to the quinone as a result of the ketone bridge. There is a risk of reactive oxygen species as a result, many compounds exhibit hepatic, renal, intestinal danger because of this.

Here are a thread (about MPA) and an article relating to this.

 

[adder]

NPD isn't actually a great improvement, despite the more in depth discussion here with often pretty acurate speculation/prediction regarding effects / pharmacological properties, possible toxic metabolites or other aspects by looking at the structure. Brephedrone and Clephedrone come to mnd, these things can be addressed sooner and could be much more accesible than here or in OD where topics get snowballed under fast.

The unknown about 4-halo substituted cathinones is just a perfect example of how the RC industry could support science, I'm sure giving something in exchange is not a big price to ask for. As of now the RC industry rather exclusively takes from the achievements of science, not giving anything in return. Also, it's hard not to notice that they're slowly running out of ideas that were already presented in the literature. Although there has been some research done since the appearance of mephedrone, it's been mainly focused on mephedrone itself, and 8 years later there's still relatively little known about it, it doesn't seem like much more research will be on the way from university researchers, and it's quite understandable with the current attitude of the society towards psychoactive drugs. I'm sure it could progress much faster if more private research was done. I don't really know what costs we're talking about when it comes to studies on activity and toxicity as I treat all the biochemistry/pharmacology stuff as a non-committal hobby, but I suspect they're acceptable.

 

[Zeds(NCO2CH2CH3)2]

Here are a thread (about MPA) and an article relating to this.

Thank you for posting this, many do not realize enzyme active sites are iron cysteine (Fe-S) rich systems and the fact is that the liver can produce relatively strong oxidative molecules, which then leave the liver to enter whatever phase two pathway (High polarity for example thiophene s oxides). Then in whatever organ compartment conjugation with a phase two process is at times dependent on utilizing nadh and nadph for the enzyme to function I. E udp-glucuronosyltransferase. Hydride from these source may be implicated in release of the peroxide ion I. E N-oxide reduction. The problem arises that how do you conjugate inherently unstable oxygen linkers? You can but the complicated effects result in the latter, loss of the oxide as a radical, forming reactive oxygen species.
This is a gross oversimplification but I'm sure you get the concept, the liver ideally tries to produce polar conjugated but actively produces reactive species, however there are systems to deal with this, but some cannot deal with some metabolites as well because they are so foreign like thiophene s oxides, thereby they accumulate and participate in an active redox cycle regenerating the s oxide or quinone most likely..

 

[Shaal]

Thank you for posting this, many do not realize enzyme active sites are iron cysteine (Fe-S) rich systems and the fact is that the liver can produce relatively strong oxidative molecules, which then leave the liver to enter whatever phase two pathway (High polarity for example thiophene s oxides). Then in whatever organ compartment conjugation with a phase two process is at times dependent on utilizing nadh and nadph for the enzyme to function I. E udp-glucuronosyltransferase. Hydride from these source may be implicated in release of the peroxide ion I. E N-oxide reduction. The problem arises that how do you conjugate inherently unstable oxygen linkers? You can but the complicated effects result in the latter, loss of the oxide as a radical, forming reactive oxygen species.
This is a gross oversimplification but I'm sure you get the concept, the liver ideally tries to produce polar conjugated but actively produces reactive species, however there are systems to deal with this, but some cannot deal with some metabolites as well because they are so foreign like thiophene s oxides, thereby they accumulate and participate in an active redox cycle regenerating the s oxide or quinone most likely..

I am not too versed in this domain, but I get the concept, yes.

So in your opinion, does etizolam present the same risk?

Edit: I found some elements of answers in this exchange (posts 795, 796, 797, 800).

Maybe we could start a specific thread about the suspected toxicity of thiophene compounds.

 

[Zeds(NCO2CH2CH3)2]

See any aromatic ring could be toxic but there exists the concept of lability in metab/tox. The main way to understand this is if the ring has substitutents on it that make it electron poor then the oxygen from the let's say hydroxylase can attack it's neighboring carbon and form the epoxide, it's an example of radical nucleophilic aromatic substitution.

Consider these examples and recognize lability is the degree of oxidation or reduction at a certain area and the extent of it vs the other metabolites Think percentages.

Para chloro amphetamine is forms ROS because the chloride atom makes the carbon electron poor thus it can be hydroxylated and undergo NIH shift to the epoxide.

Para fluoro may do this but to an extremely small degree maybe less than 1%. In this case the amine is more labile to be metabolized. I. E Mao

Napthalene can be toxic because of epoxide formation as a result of an extended aromatic system, as you expand ring systems they become less aromatic because the ring current is so distanced. Thereby the ring may be electron poor again.. This was a huge concern for the jwh series because these hydroxylamine metabolites were found by the army initially I believe.

Thiophene and etizolam, the ethyl substitutents is more labile in this case because of sterics probably and will be oxidized first. Let's say the ethyl sub is removed, then it may form the s oxide and then that drug could be toxic.

The etizolam ring system is pretty large so I am not sure if the thiophene ring can even fit in the correct cytochrome enzyme that would form the s oxide.

In my opinion mono substituted thiophene are probably not the best idea because the most labile site is the thiophene ring sulfur, the drug mentioned here probs is metabolized fast and eliminated even faster. If a user did find effects he might try to keep taking it and really damage himself, liver and renal failure is painful it isn't instant like many acetaminophen overdose victim believe, it takes a week and that week is hell.

There are many more odd examples but just consider metabolic lability it's a relatively new phrase, old concept..

Zedz

 

[sekio]

Para chloro amphetamine is forms ROS because the chloride atom makes the carbon electron poor thus it can be hydroxylated and undergo NIH shift to the epoxide.

on an aromatic ring? what? I don't think the epoxybenzenes are stable, too much ring strain and it violates Bredt's rule?

 

[adder]

The epoxide is only an intermediate in this process, plain amphetamine is para-hydroxylated by CYP in the same way.

 

[Rybee]

A lot of heated theoretical debate in here, which is healthy in the interest of HR, but there's also a lot of speculation - so can anyone vouch for it's effects that have actually tried it?

 

[gorestep]

Everything in this threads is crazy complicated

Is it a good RC or not is all I'm after
What are the effects closest to mkat? Speed? Coke?