Bupe Norbupe Theory

[Preak]

Interesting. Thank you for your valuable insight.

I guess it's technically still up in the air as to whether norbupe truly elicits an effect or not. Like schizopath said, bupe seems to feel different every time and at varying doses. I would love to be able to find a dose that keeps the opiate-effect and euphoric effect consistent, but have been unable (even after 5 years) to determine what dose this might be. Seems like it's too complex of a drug to really know for sure.

But I do believe the higher doses are almost pointless. Countless times I have actually become very dysphoric after using anywhere from 8-12mg of buprenorphine.

I asked this question as I am on bupe for maintenace, but it is no longer helping with cravings as I don't feel jack shit from it and this is unfortunate because it's effecting me mentally and making me crave heroin again daily. And methadone is not an option for me at the moment, so I'm trying to figure out the best way to utilize what I have and actually feel like my mind is satisfied. I have, in the past achieved very beautiful effects from bupe, so I know it's possible to feel good with this medication. but then again I also had a lower tolerance.

I truly appreciate everyone's input and responses. If anyone else has anything else to add, please feel free.

Ever hear of the "eye jammy" or the wet snort of a film? I learned about it in jail try taking an 8th of a film and carefully put it on your eyeball and layout head back for ten minutes it works. Also put whatever amount of a film in a plastic spoon add a couple drops of water and pour it down your nose as you insufilate it. You can also plug it. All these roa's use almost all of the drug almost 100% bioavailability.

 

[Fire&Water]

Ever hear of the "eye jammy" or the wet snort of a film? I learned about it in jail try taking an 8th of a film and carefully put it on your eyeball and layout head back for ten minutes it works.

Buprowpane?

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I do not think shoving strip pieces into my eyeballs is going to help much.

 

[Robby D]

Ever hear of the "eye jammy" or the wet snort of a film? I learned about it in jail try taking an 8th of a film and carefully put it on your eyeball and layout head back for ten minutes it works. Also put whatever amount of a film in a plastic spoon add a couple drops of water and pour it down your nose as you insufilate it. You can also plug it. All these roa's use almost all of the drug almost 100% bioavailability.

I have done these methods I just did almost eight flat in prison and strips are definitely the drug of choice behind the fence because you can fit a hundred of them in one balloon and sell them for 100 to 200 a piece and if ur buying them they’re worth it because you can get high fifteen times off of one strip( no joke)! They’re is definitely NO reason to ever do over an eighth of a strip you don’t get any higher!! I did them the WHOLE time I was locked up and they worked great! As soon as I got out though I went to a clinic and got on them because I have extreme chronic pain and my dumbass started doing waaay more than I needed to and it stopped working is all it did! Oh and yeah the eye booger thing yeah it works but sob does it burn!!! An eighth is about to much to handle in ur eyeball it burns that bad!! But yeah subs are pretty good if u stay at a low dose! I mean they’re no Methadone by any means but I’d rather have a bupe buzz than a hydrocodone buzz

 

[G_Chem]

Damn while the eye sounds interesting and indeed probably very effective, it likely damages the eye too making it not worth it.

I wanna report since reading this threads more recent posts I began using Buccal after years of sublingual and kinda kicking myself for not doing it sooner. I feels it’s more consistent and effective, sublingual is too dependent on the current amount of saliva, and if I spit too soon after dosing probably lose some. I’m actually dropping my dose a bit cuz I feel I can with where my tolerance is.

Also the “high” (I know I know..) is more like snorted than sublingual. A bit more heady and stimulating, been having a hard time getting to sleep just like when I used to snort it. I missed those effects.

Much appreciated

-GC

 

[ryax]

personally, i prefer sublingual HOWEVER

i can taste it hours after taking it i think due to needing to have teeth extracted

i also have had swollen tonsils for a few months

and i have tasted it accumulating on my tonsils

i think that sublingual is better but

im close to quitting altogether because of this and i might go on tramadol or use cannabis low dose gummies (until i find a dose that works for me)

edit: by buccal i mean i usually stick it in the chewing tobacco pocket although putting it on my cheek probably would work.

this is my first time usign the strips in years because i thought they'd help with this rediculous taste that im tasting

 

[ryax]

after more than 2~mg of bupe i can no longer feel cannabis.

another reason why i am getting more interested in quitting.

but im interested in quitting then coming back to buprenorphine as my DOC/pain medicine in the future.

Ive now gotten the best out of it, i know how high it can really go (see my azelastine thread)

and all in all, in conclusion, its my favorite drug [due to not having many side effects, and doing its job]. it doesn't even give me a tolerance. when you've been on it for this long (and only bupe, not switching between bupe and dope or oxy)

you start to realize that, the doses and experience vary by the dose and you don't get a tolerance at low doses. my dose is always between 1.5 to 2mg if it doesnt absorb properly then i take 0.25mg more .


its kinda weird that ive been having intense bupe experiences daily for 12+ years and i think im starting to fry my receptors. time for a break for me.

 

[G_Chem]

Wanna report that actually I’m not sure Buccal is fully my thing, also noticing increased vasoconstriction when I usually get none, constipation, and more “high.” Just took sublingual today and noticing a difference. Think I’ll save buccal for times I have a lot of saliva or am worried I’ll lose my dose somehow sublingually.

-GC

 

[Lorne???]

Where are getting this information from? People have posted links to studies regarding norbuprenorphine's binding affinity in this thread. And diazepam is well documented as having an extremely long half-life. True, its duration of perceptible effect is shorter than its half life, but it is not shorter than lorazepam, not by a longshot.

No, I have posted plenty of pages regarding Valium's shorter duration; just read the Wikipedia page on Lorazepam - it is bow to g e anticonvulsant of choice because it last longer than Valium..

A page discussing the difference between active half life and elimination half life actually said a single dose of Xanax/Alprazolam last longer , which is a stretch, although they are about the same

Yoy should read that article - I think it is one BDD somewhere

As far as norbupe just turn to the ever useful Pubmed. Studies shown that it causes PNS effects, not CBS effects at any reasonable dose

Just do the research and you will find out, and you can vent ke by asking anyone who has known me all these years, I know what I am talking about

Remember that swallowing buprenorphine yields the most norbuprenorphine, so under this flawed theory, you should swallow your Suboxone/Subutex/ whatever the 0.4mg tablets are called, amd yet, we know NOT TO SWALLOW IT

So that is that - I appreciate your keen interest though and understand why people would get, at least initially, confused

(Remember, buprenorphine is supposedly like 90% absorbed, yet first pass brings the PO BA% down to 10-15%, so it would be far more norbupe than any other route, yet it does not work

Thank You

- Lornethemagnificent

 

[Lorne???]

I meant lorazepam is the go to IV anticonvulsant because multiple doses are rarely needed

(They had to give me a pair ofndoses quickly, that is because I started to seize and my tolerance meant one shot of Ativan would not cut it. This was at an ER, I was confused and the Dr suddenly yelled" Ativan, stat" and next thing I know, a little time has passes, and Inam in the bed post octal

They gave me 3-4mg total - weird and somewhat scary situation

 

[G_Chem]

No, I have posted plenty of pages regarding Valium's shorter duration; just read the Wikipedia page on Lorazepam - it is bow to g e anticonvulsant of choice because it last longer than Valium..

A page discussing the difference between active half life and elimination half life actually said a single dose of Xanax/Alprazolam last longer , which is a stretch, although they are about the same

Yoy should read that article - I think it is one BDD somewhere

As far as norbupe just turn to the ever useful Pubmed. Studies shown that it causes PNS effects, not CBS effects at any reasonable dose

Just do the research and you will find out, and you can vent ke by asking anyone who has known me all these years, I know what I am talking about

Remember that swallowing buprenorphine yields the most norbuprenorphine, so under this flawed theory, you should swallow your Suboxone/Subutex/ whatever the 0.4mg tablets are called, amd yet, we know NOT TO SWALLOW IT

So that is that - I appreciate your keen interest though and understand why people would get, at least initially, confused

(Remember, buprenorphine is supposedly like 90% absorbed, yet first pass brings the PO BA% down to 10-15%, so it would be far more norbupe than any other route, yet it does not work

Thank You

- Lornethemagnificent

Ok who am I supposed to believe, the people posting actual links or the guy saying “trust me I’m right..”

Not saying your wrong but you gotta do better than that.

-GC

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Wanna report that actually I’m not sure Buccal is fully my thing, also noticing increased vasoconstriction when I usually get none, constipation, and more “high.” Just took sublingual today and noticing a difference. Think I’ll save buccal for times I have a lot of saliva or am worried I’ll lose my dose somehow sublingually.

-GC

hey man, do you notice perceptible differences between sublingual and buccal?
EDIT : I saw your other comment now! Interesting. So the buccal caused more of a "high"?

No, I have posted plenty of pages regarding Valium's shorter duration; just read the Wikipedia page on Lorazepam - it is bow to g e anticonvulsant of choice because it last longer than Valium..

A page discussing the difference between active half life and elimination half life actually said a single dose of Xanax/Alprazolam last longer , which is a stretch, although they are about the same

Yoy should read that article - I think it is one BDD somewhere

As far as norbupe just turn to the ever useful Pubmed. Studies shown that it causes PNS effects, not CBS effects at any reasonable dose

Just do the research and you will find out, and you can vent ke by asking anyone who has known me all these years, I know what I am talking about

Remember that swallowing buprenorphine yields the most norbuprenorphine, so under this flawed theory, you should swallow your Suboxone/Subutex/ whatever the 0.4mg tablets are called, amd yet, we know NOT TO SWALLOW IT

So that is that - I appreciate your keen interest though and understand why people would get, at least initially, confused

(Remember, buprenorphine is supposedly like 90% absorbed, yet first pass brings the PO BA% down to 10-15%, so it would be far more norbupe than any other route, yet it does not work

Thank You

- Lornethemagnificent

I don't know much about valium's pharmacology, so I won't speak on that part, but it sounds like the rest of what you said is the conclusion I've gotten.
Swallowing bupe doesn't lead to a whole lot of effects & is the best route to get norbuprenorphine. Probably because it does not penetrate the blood brain barrier/CNS in any appreciable amount. But then again, I've seen medical literature saying that norbuprenorphine IS active, but maybe they do mean only active peripherally? Which would also cause SOME respiratory depression right? Is it because the molecule is too big to get past the blood brain barrier or is it because it gets pumped back out by something?

Bupe also has other active metabolites. Anyone know much about those?

 

[G_Chem]

hey man, do you notice perceptible differences between sublingual and buccal?
EDIT : I saw your other comment now! Interesting. So the buccal caused more of a "high"?


I don't know much about valium's pharmacology, so I won't speak on that part, but it sounds like the rest of what you said is the conclusion I've gotten.
Swallowing bupe doesn't lead to a whole lot of effects & is the best route to get norbuprenorphine. Probably because it does not penetrate the blood brain barrier/CNS in any appreciable amount. But then again, I've seen medical literature saying that norbuprenorphine IS active, but maybe they do mean only active peripherally? Which would also cause SOME respiratory depression right? Is it because the molecule is too big to get past the blood brain barrier or is it because it gets pumped back out by something?

Bupe also has other active metabolites. Anyone know much about those?

Yes major differences surprisingly. It’s more effective Buccal, causes much stronger constipation, better pain management, and a bit more stimulating in that opiate kind of way.

All that said, I’ve gone back to sublingual and will save Buccal for rare occasions. The constipation and what I perceive to be negative effects on my hormones has me just sticking with what my body knows.

-GC

 

[Lorne???]

Ok who am I supposed to believe, the people posting actual links or the guy saying “trust me I’m right..”

Not saying your wrong but you gotta do better than that.

-GC

Dude I told you to read the Wikipedia page on Lorazepam

I cannot find the article I want to post, though it is buried in BDD somewhere

I have posted so many links it is ridiculous; just ask anyone who knows me, they will tell you, I make liberal use of pubmed

Just read the Wikipedia page on Lorazepam, very common sense explanation
.when I have time, I will try to post something about norbuprenorphine, however, again, a common sense explanation is that taking buprenorphine by mouth results in horrible effects, despite MORE Norbupe

Thank.You for being reasonable

(The Ativan page has citations)

 

[G_Chem]

I’m supposed to read a Wikipedia page on Lorazepam to tell me Buprenorphine’s blood brain barrier permeability?.. Besides the fact your lazily arguing your case (no I haven’t heard your name around the water cooler sorry) I find it hard to believe I’m going to find the info there that pleads your case.

-GC

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Yes major differences surprisingly. It’s more effective Buccal, causes much stronger constipation, better pain management, and a bit more stimulating in that opiate kind of way.

All that said, I’ve gone back to sublingual and will save Buccal for rare occasions. The constipation and what I perceive to be negative effects on my hormones has me just sticking with what my body knows.

-GC

Interesting! Thanks for the feedback!

I have tried Zubslov and Bunavail in the past but my recollection of it was hazy.
Tried mine buccally today to experiment and even swallowed my saliva, which I normally wouldn't do and my experience so far is similar to yours. Better pain relief. Lessened bowel motility, etc..

 

[Lorne???]

I’m supposed to read a Wikipedia page on Lorazepam to tell me Buprenorphine’s blood brain barrier permeability?.. Besides the fact your lazily arguing your case (no I haven’t heard your name around the water cooler sorry) I find it hard to believe I’m going to find the info there that pleads your case.

-GC

Dude you know I meant read the Ativan page to have it explain why Valium wears off faster, come on dude

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...0QFnoECAgQBQ&usg=AOvVaw32AL6BNgoruGigMHrQCzsc

[/URL]

This article says norbuprenorphine does not read readily cross the BBB; I had another one with great detail, though it is a PDF

Just Google it and every source will say Norbuprenorphine is not normally active at the CNS because it cannot Penetrate it

And ask the mods about me; ask Keif

I single handedly dispelled the rumors that oxycodone had high oral BA%, because SEVERAL studies place it at 50%, only a single study had the 87% figure, and it was 5 people in a study funded by the drug company

I also posted proof (with some help) that rectal.administration of * most * opioids results in a delayed onset, with an extended duration of action, especially with the Oxy- medication (oxycodone and oxymorphone) although there are exceptions like morphine and, heroin

(Not sure why morphine because it has poor solubility/ less than 100mg per ml and modest lipid solubility) although diamorphine is highly soluble, half a gram per ml for pure pharmaceutical grade heroin no 4 / diamorphine help, so that makes sense

Anyway I am rambling though I am not being lazy, I told everyone that horbupe is produced in highest quantities when swallowed, yet no on swallowed buprenorphine because it is a waste

Sometimes, if you are dealing with a vet who has been on this site a decade, you have to pull out pubned yourself if you disagree with such solid evidence

Not being rude just saying

There is simply NO WAY norbuprenorphine is activating Mu opioid receptors, every source mentions this, anyway, ask the mods, ask Keif, I have paid my dues

I hope this makes sense to everyone

(And anyone who takes Benzodiazepines should probably slow down and certainly check the Lorazepam page)

Peace -

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Atazanavir and atazanavir/ritonavir increased plasma buprenorphine and norbuprenorphine concentrations 1.3- to 2.5-fold, albeit not into ranges shown previously to cause side effects (McCance-Katz et al., 2007). Nevertheless, the interaction caused some subjects to become sedated. The adverse side effects after buprenorphine/atazanavir were attributed to inhibition of CYP3A4-mediated buprenorphine metabolism by atazanvir. However, atazanavir is also a P-gp inhibitor (Bierman et al., 2010), and, in light of the findings in the present study, it is possible that atazanavir-enhanced buprenorphine effects could be attributable, at least in part, to P-gp inhibition and increased norbuprenorphine brain access.

P-Glycoprotein Is a Major Determinant of Norbuprenorphine Brain Exposure and Antinociception

Norbuprenorphine is a major metabolite of buprenorphine and potent agonist of μ, δ, and κ opioid receptors. Compared with buprenorphine, norbuprenorphine causes minimal antinociception but greater respiratory depression. It is ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Norbuprenorphine has affinity for mu, kappa & delta, but appears to need p-gp inhibition to increase access into the brain. Reminds me of loperamide in a way.



Also, some of bupes metabolites have affinity for receptors and are apparently active as well, so why isn't swallowing bupe more popular? If it's other metabolites are active at mu, kappa & delta, than it has to has some effects.

Buprenorphine metabolites, buprenorphine-3-glucuronide and norbuprenorphine-3-glucuronide, are biologically active

The long-lasting high affinity opioid buprenorphine has complex pharmacology including ceiling effects with respect to analgesia and respiratory depression. Plasma concentrations of the major buprenorphine metabolites norbuprenorphine, buprenorphine-3-glucuronide, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Couldn't one swallow a large dose of bupe with a p-gp inhibitor & then essentially force it through the BBB? Similar to loperamide..

 

[Lorne???]

Couldn't one swallow a large dose of bupe with a p-gp inhibitor & then essentially force it through the BBB? Similar to loperamide..

That is an interesting idea, although popular 8nhibitors are hard to find (RX only, usually) and cimetidine and White Grapefruit juice would inhibit 3A4, so more buprenorphine, less norbupe

(You can actually swallow buprenorphine with the aforementioned inhibitors and double or triple the BA%, though it is pointless when other routes work just fine)

Methadone, for those interested, 40mg with loads of inhibitors is better than 60mg without (amd especially 60mg compared to 80mmg)

So, the best inhibitor is *usually * a higher dose, the not always, unless you are doubling the dose

Back when I was into inhibitors I would take a fairly large dose of Methadone and Klonopin, and actually wake up high

A bit off topic, just a note on what inhibitors can do for certain drugs