• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

NMDA antagonists for tolerance, a collection of the evidence and anecdotal reports

Hey check this Japanese drug I just found while roaming on wiki:

Indeloxazine

200px-Indeloxazine.svg.png


Indeloxazine (Elen, Noin) is a so-called cerebral activator used in Japan for the treatment of cerebrovascular disease. It was launched in 1988. Indeloxazine acts as a serotonin releasing agent and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. It also acts as an NMDA receptor antagonist. It enhances acetylcholine release through indirect activation of the 5-HT4 receptor. Indeloxazine has nootropic, neuroprotective, anticonvulsant, and antidepressant effects.

Would love to get my hands on some of that.
 
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Hey check this Japanese drug I just found while roaming on wiki:

Indeloxazine

200px-Indeloxazine.svg.png


Indeloxazine (Elen, Noin) is a so-called cerebral activator used in Japan for the treatment of cerebrovascular disease. It was launched in 1988. Indeloxazine acts as a serotonin releasing agent and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. It also acts as an NMDA receptor antagonist. It enhances acetylcholine release through indirect activation of the 5-HT4 receptor. Indeloxazine has nootropic, neuroprotective, anticonvulsant, and antidepressant effects.

Would love to get my hands on some of that.
Nice. We are gonna see countless nmda antagonists popping up in the next couple of years. :D
 
That stuff looks like a potentially extremely effective antidepressant, in rodents treatment resistance (and humans) has been associated with the 5HT1A receptor/gene wich serotonine releasing agents bypass, sexual dysfunctioning and mood blunting due to inhibiting phasic serotonine release also wont be an issue, that combined with the NMDA antagonism makes up for a highly interesting treatment, it also leaves the option of adding other compounds to this one wich it should probably prevent tolerance for, i see some very high potential in that compound.
 
Would the suggestion he outlined be the most effective NMDA anatgonist regimen for me? If I solely did Delsym, would it be as effective as a cocktail of drugs, including magnesium (etc.)

30mg twice a day of Delsym should work quite well for reducing tolerance. DXM is unique in that you don't have to STOP the drug that you're taking in order to have a drastic drop in tolerance in a short period of time. Memantine, on the other hand, takes longer to drop tolerance if you are still taking the drug.

The problem with DXM is that it has a dirty receptor affinity profile and interacts with a lot of things. If you don't take any drugs that are contraindicated (SSRIs, SRAs, MAOIs mainly) then DXM is a great choice and it is certainly faster than memantine. You just have to watch out for drugs that interact with DXM (and there are a lot of them) and avoid them when you are on the DXM regimen. Also, memantine has a rather long half-life of 60-100 hours, which means it stays in your system much longer than DXM. I am currently doing 20mg twice a day (12 hours apart) on memantine but that's only because I experience significant respiratory suppression if I don't space it out. I'm not sure if that's a side effect of the memantine, a reaction from the tolerance reduction to my valium, or a combination, but I have noted marked respiratory suppression occasionally with memantine.

Basically, Delsym is perfectly fine if a) you want the tolerance to drop FAST, even while continuing to take the drug, b) you aren't hypersensitive to it, and c) you can avoid mixing it with incompatible substances.

Would you say that the 40mg dose of memantine is needed for MDMA tolerance?

I ordered some and am trying to devise a schedule.

I was thinking 10mg a day for a week, up it to 20mg for a week then roll, or is that not aggressive enough? What would your recommendation be?

I'm one of the few that has not had roll improvement with piracetam and once took so much of it, I think it actually muted my roll). My MDMA tolerance is there, but not extreme; it's just really inconsistent even with most variables being equal. And my rolls are no where near the first few times (as is the case with most people), but not remedied by long breaks or good product or increasing doses..etc. and I don't think it's just lack of novelty either...

Thanks! Really enjoying this thread!

40mg seems to be the magic number for tolerance reduction in the short term. If you take it over a long period of time, I've seen reports of as little as 10mg cutting tolerance but not until a month or longer has passed by.

The drug is rather benign. In a single week I went from 10mg to 40mg a day, it just adds more brain fog when you do this so quickly but if you can handle the brain fog then it is much more effective much quicker.

As far as rolling goes, memantine will reduce your tolerance, however, if you don't have the monoamines available to create the roll, you'll end up with a half-assed roll, just at a lower dose than you would normally need to take.

Medievil stated that he experienced no crash from MDMA while on memantine nor did he experience the CNS stimulation effects from his amphetamine - this was not the case in my experience and I both experienced significant CNS stimulation AND had a rather nasty crash but that involved MDA, MDMA, and 2C-D in a single 24 hour period so I can't say that the crash wouldn't have been worse if I wasn't on the memantine. I have a feeling that the crash would have been lessened in intensity but I have no way of knowing that for certain because I was also 5 days into a 25% benzodiazepine cut and taking the drugs obviously messed with my levels of neurochemicals massively. I ended up having to take my Valium early but I didn't have to take more Valium than I would normally need in a day so it is really hard to say what happened there.
 
That stuff looks like a potentially extremely effective antidepressant, in rodents treatment resistance (and humans) has been associated with the 5HT1A receptor/gene wich serotonine releasing agents bypass, sexual dysfunctioning and mood blunting due to inhibiting phasic serotonine release also wont be an issue, that combined with the NMDA antagonism makes up for a highly interesting treatment, it also leaves the option of adding other compounds to this one wich it should probably prevent tolerance for, i see some very high potential in that compound.

Yes but with a 2.2 hour half-life, that's a lot of pills that would be needed every day to maintain sufficient blood levels and I haven't done a lot of research as of yet but I doubt the NMDA antagonism at reasonable therapeutic doses is of clinical significance to make much difference.
 
I would like to add my experience regarding daily use of GBL on memantine, i take around 100ml a week and after several months didnt experience any tolerance whatsoever, i did have occasional breaks of a couple weeks because i allways ran out too soon, but i definatly should have build up a tolerance by now consider i use it alot and use it every day.

Physical addiction is something ive allways avoided on GBL, because i never took it during the day in the past, even without memantine, the timefrime you take it plays a major role in physical addiction to G imo, with not taking it for sleep too being very important.

Yeah 40mg is the dose were memantine really works, anything lower and it just seems to slow tolerance quite a bit but thats all.
 
I just added 30mg of Delsym because I'm withdrawing pretty severely today... Not severely... its hard to put my finger on it because I have weird body feelings but no actual physical withdrawals. Just a feeling that something is "off" and yuck.

I think adding the DXM will reduce my valium tolerance faster than memantine will... I just have to be careful not to do drugs (which I shouldn't be doing when I'm tapering anyway).
 
Memantine + Lyrica = WIN for Valium withdrawal. I took 100mg of Lyrica last night as an experiment and I not only got euphoric and sedated from it, I ended up passing out and sleeping an entire 8 hours for the first time since I started my NMDA regimen.

I'll be dropping the DXM as it appears that the DXM actually has a higher tolerance when co-administered with memantine.
 
So my withdrawal is just not going fast enough at 40mg... would 50, 60mg make a bigger impact or should I switch to Delsym for NMDA antagonism instead? I noticed that Delsym made me cut my Valium the second day I was on it...
 
Repeated Heroin Administration: A Sensitization Process

DISCUSSION
The first result of this study is that intermittent administrations of the same dose of heroin induced not only an analgesic effect but also a long-lasting enhancement in pain sensitivity (hyperalgesia), as observed with the progressive emergence of a delayed decrease of the nociceptive threshold for several days. This hyperalgesia cannot be explained by an excess of nociceptive inputs induced by behavioral testing associated with heroin administration because we reported previously that long-lasting hyperalgesia is also observed in opiate-treated rats unexposed to repeated nociceptive stimuli on the day of opiate administration (Laulin et al., 1998; Ce ´le `rier et al., 2000). This phenomenon appears an actual sensitization of pronociceptive systems because both magnitude and duration of hyperalgesia increased as a function of heroin administrations. Indeed, we observed that the first 1.25 mg/kg heroin administration induced moderate hyperalgesia for 2 d, whereas the fifth injection of the same heroin dose was followed by a larger hyperalgesia for 6 d. Our study also shows that repeated 12 once-daily subcutaneous heroin injections induced a gradual lowering of the nociceptive threshold that progressively disappeared after the cessation of the heroin treatment. Thermal hyperalgesia has also been reported 48 hr after cessation of a series of 8 once-daily intrathecal injections of morphine (Mao et al., 1994).
Our observation that the administration of a small heroin dose (0.2 or 0.3 mg/kg), which was ineffective in inducing a delayed hyperalgesia after the first exposure in rats, triggered substantial delayed hyperalgesia after a series of intermittent or once-daily heroin administrations is in agreement with the sensitization hypothesis. Considered as a whole, these results clearly indicate that a repeated heroin administration schedule induced a sensitization to heroin-induced delayed hyperalgesia.

The second result of this study is that pain hypersensitivity progressively disappeared in heroin-treated rats after the cessation of heroin administrations, as demonstrated by the slow return of the nociceptive threshold to the pre-drug value. Interestingly, the larger the decrease of the nociceptive threshold, the larger was the delay to return to basal pain sensitivity. Two types of processes might account for this phenomenon. The first one would be a progressive deactivation of pronociceptive systems according to a mere homeostatic process. The second one would be a sustained and prolonged activity of the pronociceptive systems progressively opposed by an active and opposite counteradaptation that is isodirectional to the first effect of the opiate (Poulos and Cappell, 1991; Ramsay and Woods, 1997), i.e., pain inhibition by endogenous analgesic systems (Fig. 5). Although a progressive deactivation of pronociceptive systems after the cessation of heroin administrations could not be excluded totally, our results strongly suggest a critical role for the second process. This is supported by the effectiveness of naloxone in precipitating hyperalgesia in rats that had recovered their pre-drug nociceptive threshold value after stopping heroin administration. Although the effectivenes of naloxone in precipitating hyperalgesia was only slightly increased between the first and fifth heroin injections (32 and 48% decrease of the nociceptive threshold, respectively) in the intermittent heroin injection schedule, our observation that the naloxone-precipitated hyperalgesia was maintained for 2 months after a series of 12 daily heroin administrations had ended (35% decrease of the nociceptive threshold) provides evidence that compensatory mechanisms permitting maintenance of the pre-drug nociceptive threshold value were sustained for a long time. Because an opioid receptor antagonist, which was ineffective in control heroin naive rats, induced a pharmacological effect such as hyperalgesia, this means either that opioid receptors were stimulated by a compensatory increase of endogenous opioid ligands or that signaling activity of opioid receptors is enhanced.

Indeed, it has been reported that opioid agonist stimulation results in a gradual conversion of the m opioid receptor into a sensitized or constitutively active state (Wang et al., 1994; Bilsky et al., 1996) and upregulation of the cAMP pathway (Nestler, 1992). Although these three mechanisms may account for the naloxone-precipitated hyperalgesia, the unmodified analgesic effects of heroin in this model of discontinuous administration favors the hypothesis of an increase of endogenous opioid ligands.

Studies are in progress in our laboratory to identify the nature of endogenous opioids that could be involved in this adaptive process, permitting a return to basal nociceptive threshold. Taken together, these studies suggest that heroin-deprived animals were, for a very long-time, in a new biological state associated with a high-level balance between opioid-dependent analgesic systems and pronociceptive systems that mask one another (Fig. 5). This is in agreement with the compensatory response hypothesis (Wise, 1988; Schulteis and Koob, 1996; Robinson and Berridge, 2000), especially the opponent process theory (Solomon, 1980).

The third result of our study is that, unlike sensitization of heroin-induced hyperalgesia observed after repeated administration, a change in heroin-induced analgesia was never observed.
As reported earlier (Laulin et al., 1999), we observed that both time course and AUC related to the analgesic effect of heroin were unchanged when the opiate was injected during the hyperalgesic phase induced by heroin. During the hyperalgesic period, the shift of the nociceptive threshold is actually what produced the impression of less analgesia, i.e., apparent tolerance. Moreover, this study showed that the analgesic effect of heroin was also unchanged when heroin is administered in heroin-treated animals that recovered their pre-drug nociceptive threshold value after cessation of heroin administrations, and it is in agreement with some studies showing that intermittent exposure may lead to sensitization of a drug effect, whereas continuous exposure to a drug may lead to tolerance of the same drug effect (Post, 1980).
This could explain why controlled clinical studies report that the dose of opiates that is required in chronic pain patients to alleviate pain (intermittent exposure) may remain constant for years on end (Twycross and McQuay, 1989; Foley, 1991; Portenoy, 1996). Taken together, these data indicate that the increases of the opiate doses that are sometimes required to alleviate pain in suffering patients are caused either by disease progression leading to aggravation of pain, as suggested previously (Collin et al., 1993; Colpaert, 1996), or by an excessive enhancement of pain sensitivity induced by repeated opiate administration, as observed in this study. In this respect, apparent tolerance to the opiate analgesic effect observed in intermittent heroin-treated rats appears as a by-product resulting from a pain sensitization process.
The relationships between apparent tolerance, pain sensitization, and naloxone-precipitated hyperalgesia observed in intermittent heroin-treated rats lead to the assumption that if the sensitization process was prevented before the drug effect was initiated, apparent tolerance, pain sensitization, and naloxone-precipitated hyperalgesia could not be expressed. Numerous studies demonstrated that the NMDA receptor antagonist may prevent the expression of sensitization processes (Stewart and Badiani, 1993), especially pain sensitization leading to hyperalgesia, allodynia, and spontaneous pain (Haley and Wilcox, 1992; Mao et al., 1995; Coderre and Katz, 1997). Of note is the observation that m-opioid receptor stimulation triggers the activation of NMDA receptors by reducing Mg21 blocking via intracellular protein kinase C (PKC) activation (Chen and Huang, 1991, 1992). It has been suggested that the subsequent increase of intracellular Ca21 concentration further stimulates PKC activity leading to a lasting enhancement of glutamate synaptic efficiency in a positive feedback (Mao et al., 1995; Coderre and Katz, 1997).
The present study shows that the NMDA receptor antagonist MK-801, when administered just before heroin, not only precluded sustained heroin-induced delayed hyperalgesia as described previously (Laulin et al., 1998, 1999) but also prevented the effectiveness of a small heroin dose to induce a sustained hyperalgesia in heroin-deprived rats, a critical criterion for sensitization. No apparent tolerance was observed. Moreover, MK-801 also prevented naloxone effectiveness in precipitating hyperalgesia in heroin-deprived rats that had recovered their pre-drug nociceptive threshold value. This indicates that naloxone-precipitated hyperalgesia is the result of the sharp breakdown of an equilibrium between opioid-dependent analgesic systems and NMDA-dependent pronociceptive systems. Because NMDA receptor antagonists can prevent the development of sensitization and long-term potentiation (Kullmann and Siegelbaum, 1995; Hudspith, 1997), our results lead to the hypothesis that pain sensitization and some signs of withdrawal such as hyperalgesia are issued from a neuroadaptive continuum triggered by opioid receptor stimulation in which NMDA-dependent pronociceptive systems play a critical role.

Source: J Neurosci. 2001 Jun 1;21(11):4074-80.
Evelyne Ce ´le ` rier, Jean-Paul Laulin, Jean-Benoı ˆt Corcuff, Michel Le Moal, and Guy Simonnet
Institut National de la Santé et de la Recherche Médicale U 259, Psychobiologie des Comportements Adaptatifs, Université Victor Ségalen Bordeaux 2, 33077 Bordeaux, France.
Might not be the most recent findings, but I still found it worth mentioning. Again, this is a short term study though...
For my internal medicine rotation, I wrote a paper on NMDA receptor antagonism in the treatment of chronic pain. It seems that these drugs are a sort of 'reset button' on neural memory; tolerance to drugs, chronic pain, and negative thought loops are all forms of reinforced neural pathways. The reinforcement comes from the neurons inserting more NMDA receptors (actually ion channels) in the cell membrane, so that they can depolarize and fire more easily. Jamming these ion channels brings the cells back to their original firing threshold.

I think the clinical use of DXM and ketamine (to say nothing of any PCP analogs!) will always be controversial, because people not ready for an all-out mystical experience (that's most people), tend to find them highly frightening in psychoactive doses. Memantine, however, is a gem -- it's highly specific to the NMDA receptor, unlike the others just mentioned. I think it has great potential for treating a number of psychiatric and psychosomatic illnesses which are a result of reinforcing the wrong neural pathways over time.

I love theanine, too. 200mg of that, and I feel like a million dollars. I'd recommend anyone with minor depression, anxiety, or anger management issues start taking it.
Hehe I'm planning to do a study on NMDA antagonists for my dissertation (which still lies a couple years in the future). Something about chronic use of high doses or abuse would be interesting, I haven't seen mcuh on that aside from old studies regarding pcp.

I just can't imagine that this jamming of ion channels can go on for very long, looking at how I felt after abusing nmda antagonists for a few years and seeing how massive the tolerance to those drugs itself can become... :/ I still appreciate their wide range of effects, their impressive value as the seemingly most effective antidepressants of our time, the magical state a high dose of Ketamine or Phencyclidine puts me in... But I doubt it can be made into a habit of chronic use, at least with those antagonists which are known to man as of now and are known to be effective over the short term.

In other words, I'd appreciate anyone posting their experiences with long term use. The people I know who use a lot of NMDA antagonists usually have massive tolerance for every other drug they take on a frequent basis... People who are trying this tolerance reduction right now (and I am among those) might wake up to realize their drug expenses have exploded and the exact opposite of what they intended has happened. There are no long term studies and we are playing with fire making ourselves subject to studies of psychotropic drug interactions, I just hope everyone is perfectly aware of that.


My hypothesis would be something along the lines of: Long term use of certain NMDA antagonists, will lead to quicker developement of tolerance towards certain drugs (only drugs that have been consumed during the episode of nmda antagonist use?).
It'll probably lead to a whole lot more changes in neuronal and behavioural adaptation processes...
The little evidence I have so far is looking at (polytoxicomanic) people I know who have actually been abusing nmda antagonists for a longer period of time and also looking at myself who hasn't been as successful at decreasing amphetamine tolerance with DXM (and ketamine) as some people here. While it does seem to have the described effect, it is only of a short duration.

We should probably start a thread solely to compare the tolerance towards various drugs between those users who have been extensively abusing nmda anatagonists and those who have not. I'm almost certain we will see a tendency from lower tolerance in the occasional user and those who are relatively new to nmda antagonists towards an extraordinarily high development of tolerance in the chronic user of ketamine and dextrometorphan.

Bluelight would be the perfect place to conduct surveys like this, in fact if creating surveys like that would be a little easier, I'm sure we'd see a lot of them popping up on the forums.
 
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I would like to add my experience regarding daily use of GBL on memantine, i take around 100ml a week and after several months didnt experience any tolerance whatsoever, i did have occasional breaks of a couple weeks because i allways ran out too soon, but i definatly should have build up a tolerance by now consider i use it alot and use it every day.

Physical addiction is something ive allways avoided on GBL, because i never took it during the day in the past, even without memantine, the timefrime you take it plays a major role in physical addiction to G imo, with not taking it for sleep too being very important.

Yeah 40mg is the dose were memantine really works, anything lower and it just seems to slow tolerance quite a bit but thats all.
taking g for sleep is how the addiction really started for me. I dunno about you. How many years have you been doing it? I always got up to 2 10ths a day and could often start on the next bottle.......it was shite!
 
taking g for sleep is how the addiction really started for me. I dunno about you. How many years have you been doing it? I always got up to 2 10ths a day and could often start on the next bottle.......it was shite!

I NEVER take G for sleep, wich is rather important to avoid addiction, i can allways sleep after the doses wear off tough.

Ive been taking GBL with occasional breaks of a couple weeks since 2008, i only started using 100ml a week on memantine tough, and after months i have yet to notice tolerance, i would imagine memantine also puts a brake on the development of physical addiction.
 
I NEVER take G for sleep, wich is rather important to avoid addiction, i can allways sleep after the doses wear off tough.

Ive been taking GBL with occasional breaks of a couple weeks since 2008, i only started using 100ml a week on memantine tough, and after months i have yet to notice tolerance, i would imagine memantine also puts a brake on the development of physical addiction.
I cant/couldnt for me it was like I had to take enough to black out which for most is a dose but for me it was like a few bottles and around the clock. my body would feel it everytime it wore off and i would wake up every 3 hours and dose repeatedly. it was going on for like a year or a bit less but lets say a year....awfullly addicting stuff and the wds were sooooo unbearable.....try never to get one...its like being really uncomfortable and having no appetite i guess just like a opiate withdrawal but not puking except I puked because i was ending up taking 3 10ths to 4 a day. which is a LOT if you know how its measured and im sure you do. fucks your stomach UP
 
So my withdrawal is just not going fast enough at 40mg... would 50, 60mg make a bigger impact or should I switch to Delsym for NMDA antagonism instead? I noticed that Delsym made me cut my Valium the second day I was on it...
WHAT THE FUCK IS DELSYM and why would you take it I saw this the other day at walgreens everywherreee
 
Yeah 40mg is the dose were memantine really works, anything lower and it just seems to slow tolerance quite a bit but thats all.


So for mild/moderate MDMA tolerance, how many days at 40mg memantine would you recommend for tolerance reversal?

And, should you take the MDMA while the memantine is in your system, or would it matter (i.e. a week or two buffer period with no memantine?)






.
 
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I decided to add delsym to my plan to taper off of 100 mg of oxycodone daily. It was a fairly rapid taper with a 50% decrease every 4 days. Not only was it easy, I actually started getting high again on the lower doses to my surprise. Is that unusual or can a NMDA antagonist really be that effective? I also had only been on opiates for 2 months if that makes any difference.
 
I decided to add delsym to my plan to taper off of 100 mg of oxycodone daily. It was a fairly rapid taper with a 50% decrease every 4 days. Not only was it easy, I actually started getting high again on the lower doses to my surprise. Is that unusual or can a NMDA antagonist really be that effective? I also had only been on opiates for 2 months if that makes any difference.

They really do work mate, its quite incredible actually.
 
So for mild/moderate MDMA tolerance, how many days at 40mg memantine would you recommend for tolerance reversal?

And, should you take the MDMA while the memantine is in your system, or would it matter (i.e. a week or two buffer period with no memantine?)






.

Its completely unclear wheter they can slow mdma tolerance, let alone reverse tolerance, 40mg mem seems to be the sweet spot for amp tolerance, give it a try and let us know.
 
Its completely unclear wheter they can slow mdma tolerance, let alone reverse tolerance, 40mg mem seems to be the sweet spot for amp tolerance, give it a try and let us know.

Sorry, I do realize that; I'm just looking for a place to start.

So if I where to follow a schedule for amp tolerance, what would that entail?
 
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