New study on Kratom and heart damage

[Mycophile]

I wanted to generate a discussion specifically about this new study linking Kratom to heart problems that was mentioned in the Kratom Megathread.

I would like to hear more educated opinions on where everyone stands regarding this information:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25535742

 

[Mycophile]

There is also this case of a death in a Kratom user due to seizure, though we do not know if what he used was plain leaf or extract or whether or not there may have been other drugs he used or other factors that led to his death:

http://kwgn.com/2014/03/01/denver-fa...bal-stimulant/

 

[Mycophile]

Plasticity: I'm sure you have a strong opinion on this one way or another.

If you have the time could you please respond and give me your take?

Are you going to completely quit Kratom because of this study?

 

[daytryptr]

There is also this case of a death in a Kratom user due to seizure, though we do not know if what he used was plain leaf or extract or whether or not there may have been other drugs he used or other factors that led to his death:

http://kwgn.com/2014/03/01/denver-fa...bal-stimulant/

No offence, but if we don't know what drugs killed this particular person, what's the point if mentioning it?

Its not a data point if there's that many unknowns. Its a fear mongering news story trying to get in on legal drug hysteria.

 

[Mycophile]

No offence, but if we don't know what drugs killed this particular person, what's the point if mentioning it?

Its not a data point if there's that many unknowns. Its a fear mongering news story trying to get in on legal drug hysteria.

Well it was linked in the Kratom Mega thread, but they are CLAIMING that it WAS the Kratom that killed him.

Did you catch this part??


“That was the end of his life and we know that it was the Kratom, and that’s what the death certificate says,” said Atencio.
His death certificate listed “apparent acute mitragynine toxicity” as cause of death. Mitragynine is the chemical compound, commonly known as Kratom."



Now granted, we still don't know if this guy used other drugs.

His mom (or is it wife) SAYS he had no other conditions and was healthy, but maybe he had an unknown heart problem and is the coroners' report definitive PROOF it was just the Kratom that killed him??

And was it plain leaf or an extract??

It MIGHT be a fear mongering story, might not, but I think IMMEDIATELY passing it off has having ZERO validity might be jumping the gun.

If that is what the coroner ruled...well....I just don't know.

That's why I'm asking for opinions.

 

[Mycophile]

I know I PERSONALLY do NOT want to have to quit Kratom, which is really why I am so much more concerned about this study...MUCH more so the link in the first post than the anecdotal death listed in the second one.

Kratom has become my favorite drug and it FEELS safe to me, so unless it is TRULY likely to cause death I would greatly prefer not having to completely quit it forever.

 

[daytryptr]

Well it was linked in the Kratom Mega thread, but they are CLAIMING that it WAS the Kratom that killed him.

Did you catch this part??


“That was the end of his life and we know that it was the Kratom, and that’s what the death certificate says,” said Atencio.
His death certificate listed “apparent acute mitragynine toxicity” as cause of death. Mitragynine is the chemical compound, commonly known as Kratom."



Now granted, we still don't know if this guy used other drugs.

His mom (or is it wife) SAYS he had no other conditions and was healthy, but maybe he had an unknown heart problem and is the coroners' report definitive PROOF it was just the Kratom that killed him??

And was it plain leaf or an extract??

It MIGHT be a fear mongering story, might not, but I think IMMEDIATELY passing it off has having ZERO validity might be jumping the gun.

If that is what the coroner ruled...well....I just don't know.

That's why I'm asking for opinions.

I think the family telling the police/coroner that he was taking kratom BEFORE the autopsy introduced more than just a little bias in the cause of death. Not to mention they have an agenda and said so themselves, to get kratom banned in Colorado.

Personally I think kratom is safe, but that's my opinion/expirence/what I've read about its toxicological effects.

And any story like the one you linked is fairly obviously biased just be reading it. Just because he told his family that was the only drug he was using, definitely doesn't mean that's true. He mentioned it helped his anxiety, and just speculating here, mabey he quit his benzo habit to replace it with kratom and that's what caused the seizure.

No one really knows, and judging by what was presented and how it was presented in that media article, I tend to think its 100% bullshit. But once again, that's my opinion.

 

[Mycophile]

I think the family telling the police/coroner that he was taking kratom BEFORE the autopsy introduced more than just a little bias in the cause of death. Not to mention they have an agenda and said so themselves, to get kratom banned in Colorado.

Personally I think kratom is safe, but that's my opinion/expirence/what I've read about its toxicological effects.

And any story like the one you linked is fairly obviously biased just be reading it. Just because he told his family that was the only drug he was using, definitely doesn't mean that's true. He mentioned it helped his anxiety, and just speculating here, mabey he quit his benzo habit to replace it with kratom and that's what caused the seizure.

No one really knows, and judging by what was presented and how it was presented in that media article, I tend to think its 100% bullshit. But once again, that's my opinion.

Ok, but did you read the FIRST link???

The one that said that in a lab they verified that Kratom can cause heart arrythymia's??

What do you think about THAT study??

 

[《Plasticity》]

I agree with daytypr, that second situation clearly involves way too many unknowns. The mans cause of death was ruled "apparent" mitragynine toxicity, which in other words sounds to me like they found out he took kratom an just assumed that was the cause of death. If the family is already convinced that kratom was the cause why would the coroner set up an investigation to prove otherwise? It's entirely possible that kratom was blamed prematurely.

There's just too many factors... for example he could've been using shady headshop products, heavy extracts, had other drugs in his system (or as daytrypr pointed out, a lack of drugs), been susceptible to seizures, using adulterated product, who knows. Say he did have kratom in his system, that still doesn't prove that he was under the influence at the time of death. Even if we assume it was kratom that induced the seizure, which is 100% possible, the seizure itself could've been the true cause of death if he hit his head during the event.

Given that the family didn't even know he was taking kratom he could have been into other substances as well, people with anxiety are much more likely to self medicate with drugs. Understandably the family is upset but when they look for something to blame without knowing the whole story it brings forth legislation that affects those who have benefited from kratom. In the centuries kratom has been around there have been no clear cut cases of death from kratom alone, until I see proof that everything was done to ensure that kratom was the culprit in this case then I have no reason to believe this was the exception.

I know you want me to calm you down myco but I can't respond to every one of your posts and PM's with page long responses, I just can't. This is not an insult, so please don't take this the wrong way, but you're a man of too many questions and every time you see something remotely negative you get riled up and expect me to have a detailed response in hopes of calming you down... It becomes a little much after a while. If you want to hear my opinons on the heart study, I posted in the megathread. You're more than welcome to check it out

 

[CfZrx]

Aw shit! So kratom is bad for us after all?

 

[Mycophile]

Aw shit! So kratom is bad for us after all?

The jury's not out yet.

Not harmless that's for sure, but in moderation for those who DON'T have heart conditions?

We still don't know I guess but there might not be enough evidence to say that it is...or isn't.

I'm less worried about it than I was before after considering that the tests being done were on PURE Mitragynine which has to be very different from what is in your average Kratom.

I don't think I'm ready to quit just yet, but if more studies come out making it seem dangerous then I will.

 

[Mycophile]

I agree with daytypr, that second situation clearly involves way too many unknowns. The mans cause of death was ruled "apparent" mitragynine toxicity, which in other words sounds to me like they found out he took kratom an just assumed that was the cause of death. If the family is already convinced that kratom was the cause why would the coroner set up an investigation to prove otherwise? It's entirely possible that kratom was blamed prematurely.

There's just too many factors... for example he could've been using shady headshop products, heavy extracts, had other drugs in his system (or as daytrypr pointed out, a lack of drugs), been susceptible to seizures, using adulterated product, who knows. Say he did have kratom in his system, that still doesn't prove that he was under the influence at the time of death. Even if we assume it was kratom that induced the seizure, which is 100% possible, the seizure itself could've been the true cause of death if he hit his head during the event.

Given that the family didn't even know he was taking kratom he could have been into other substances as well, people with anxiety are much more likely to self medicate with drugs. Understandably the family is upset but when they look for something to blame without knowing. In the centuries kratom has been around there have been no clear cut cases of death from kratom alone, until I see proof everything that was done to ensure that kratom was the culprit in this case then I have no reason to believe this was the exception.

I know you want me to calm you down myco but I can't respond to every one of your posts and PM's with page long responses, I just can't. This is not an insult, so please don't take this the wrong way, but you're a man of too many questions and every time you see something remotely negative you get riled up and expect me to have a detailed response in hopes of calming you down... It becomes a little much after a while. If you want to hear my opinons on the heart study, I posted in the megathread. You're more than welcome to check it out

No problem man, you already answered all my questions or at least gave your own opinions on them.

I don't want to annoy you so when something like this comes up the hope is just that I can get you interested enough to post a response in a thread.

I didn't need you to respond in PM form, I just wanted to hear what you thought about it so thanks for sharing.

 

[noone1]

Hasn't kratom widely been used for centuries in places like thailand? I'd like to see further studies before jumping to conclusions based on pure mitragynine. Anyone more science literate that can go over the research? How much of the pure mitragynine did they use compared to a typical dose of kratom for instance.

Also I'm going over the notes and unless I am misunderstanding it seems like they used stem cell heart muscles instead of actual human or even animal subjects. I am highly skeptical.

Kind of a bummer though I've been thinking of using kratom for anxiety. Rationally this study sounds like pure bullshit but even benzos give me a panic attack if I think they are doing something negative to me.

 

[CfZrx]

^good point about the pure mitra-g giving diff results than good old leaf

 

[Mycophile]

I'm still imagining people who DON'T know about Kratom telling me I'm crazy to consider continuing to use it if there's ever been ANY link between it and heart problems, but then again, there's links between all kinds of drugs people use and heart problems or serious problems.

Someone in my family uses dexedrine, and I'm pretty sure if you IV'd someone a LARGE dose of Pure Dextroamphetamine they'd immediately drop dead of a heart attack, but taking a small pill or a half doesn't have the same risks and I'm ASSUMING that it's likely that the relationship between the pure Mitragynine and plain leaf Kratom they linked is quite similar.

I also bet even small doses of Dex aren't recommended in heart patients, and that word "potentiate" still has us wondering if it only worsens arrythymias or causes them.

I guess it's sad that this proves how strong a MENTAL hold (not physical) that Kratom has on me at this point, but I still don't think I'm going to stop just yet.

If this study were REAL proof it was that dangerous I would immediately though.


And then there is this line:

"Fatal incidents with Mitragynine have been associated with cardiac arrest."


WHICH "fatal incidents"??

I've only heard of 2 so far: this guy in Colorado they CLAIM died from only Kratom but we don't have proof that's true, and then several years ago a 17 year old heroin addict died of a combo of some kind of Kratom, some kind of benzodiazpene and cold medicine, but we don't know what else could have been wrong with him, the dosage of ANY of the stuff he took, and also heroin addicts are far from healthy test subjects.

 

[daytryptr]

I'm still imagining people who DON'T know about Kratom telling me I'm crazy to consider continuing to use it if there's ever been ANY link between it and heart problems, but then again, there's links between all kinds of drugs people use and heart problems or serious problems.

Someone in my family uses dexedrine, and I'm pretty sure if you IV'd someone a LARGE dose of Pure Dextroamphetamine they'd immediately drop dead of a heart attack, but taking a small pill or a half doesn't have the same risks and I'm ASSUMING that it's likely that the relationship between the pure Mitragynine and plain leaf Kratom they linked is quite similar.

I also bet even small doses of Dex aren't recommended in heart patients, and that word "potentiate" still has us wondering if it only worsens arrythymias or causes them.

I guess it's sad that this proves how strong a MENTAL hold (not physical) that Kratom has on me at this point, but I still don't think I'm going to stop just yet.

If this study were REAL proof it was that dangerous I would immediately though.


And then there is this line:

"Fatal incidents with Mitragynine have been associated with cardiac arrest."


WHICH "fatal incidents"??

I've only heard of 2 so far: this guy in Colorado they CLAIM died from only Kratom but we don't have proof that's true, and then several years ago a 17 year old heroin addict died of a combo of some kind of Kratom, some kind of benzodiazpene and cold medicine, but we don't know what else could have been wrong with him, the dosage of ANY of the stuff he took, and also heroin addicts are far from healthy test subjects.

A seizure is not a cardiac event, and from the sound of the second death you mention it doesn't seem like it had anything to do with his heart but rather respiratory depression. But since you didn't list a source for that I'm just speculating.

I think your looking for a reason to be worried about your kratom use and trying to justify that with news stories where kratom was a drug (amoung many other more dangerous drugs) in the persons system at the time of death.

Which isn't the most rational way to go about trying to determine if kratom is a relatively safe drug for YOU to use.

There's no hard evidence to say either way if its safe or not, and I see this whole discussion as useless circlejerking around something that is an unknown for the time being.

No offence meant, IMHO you should relax, and if your that worried go see a doctor and find out if you might have problems with your heart that could potentially be exasperated by kratom.

I just fail to see why anyone should worry about this so much with how little evidence there is for either side of the discussion.

 

[《Plasticity》]

And then there is this line:

"Fatal incidents with Mitragynine have been associated with cardiac arrest."


WHICH "fatal incidents"??

I've only heard of 2 so far: this guy in Colorado they CLAIM died from only Kratom but we don't have proof that's true, and then several years ago a 17 year old heroin addict died of a combo of some kind of Kratom, some kind of benzodiazpene and cold medicine, but we don't know what else could have been wrong with him, the dosage of ANY of the stuff he took, and also heroin addicts are far from healthy test subjects.

Myco, mitragynine isn't kratom... it's just an alkaloid found in kratom. Stop trying to link that statement with kratom deaths, that's not what they're reffering to. People isolate alkaloids from plants and run tests on the safety of these isolated chemicals all the time. In order to do so they purposefully kill animals (usually rats) in order to determine how much of the drug it takes to kill 50% of those dosed, this is how the LD50 of a drug is determined. If I were to extract or synthesize pure mitragynine and inject someone with a lethal dose this does not mean that this person died from kratom, they died from mitragynine.

It just so happens that the way these rats? died when injected with insane amounts of mitragynine was from cardiac arrest. This is actually pretty amazing as mitragynine is the only opioid I know of that doesn't induce respiratory depression. Any other opioid would likely have killed the participants from respiratory depression before inducing cardiac arrest. Anyways go ahead and pick a single medication from your medicine cabinet, now go online and look up how many deaths and side-effects are attributed to that medication... you can find the negatives in any drug if you look for them.

 

[noone1]

It just so happens that the way these rats? died when injected with insane amounts of mitragynine was from cardiac arrest. This is actually pretty amazing asmitragynine is the only opioid I know of that doesn't induce respiratory depression. Any other opioid would likely have killed the participants from respiratory depression before cardiac arrest. Anyways go ahead and pick a single medication from your medicine cabinet, now go online and look up how many deaths and side-effects are attributed to that medication... you can find the negatives in any drug if you look for them.

They actually didn't use rats they used stem cells. Doing a little research, with the cardiac stem cells they are superior to animal models especially in testing drugs except in one area: it only shows how the drug effects the heart directly it doesn't reflect the metabolism other organs have on the chemical before it reaches the heart. Interesting stuff. So I wouldn't worry too much further testing is needed.

 

[Mycophile]

A seizure is not a cardiac event, and from the sound of the second death you mention it doesn't seem like it had anything to do with his heart but rather respiratory depression. Bit since you didn't list a source for that I'm just speculating.

I think your looking for a reason to be worried about your kratom use and trying to justify that with news stories where kratom was a drug (amoung many other more dangerous drugs in the persons system at the time of death.

Which isn't the most rational way to go about trying to determined if kratom is a relatively safe drug for YOU to use.

There's no hard evidence to say either way if itsnsafe or not, and I see this whole discussion as useless circlejerking around something that is an unknown for the time being.

No offence meant, IMHO you should relax, and if your that worried go see a doctor and find out if you might have problems with your heart that could potentially be exasperated by kratom.

I just fail to see why anyone should worry about this so much with how little evidence there is for either side of the discussion.

In response to the bolded part it's actually the EXACT opposite: that I'm a person with Generalized Anxiety Disorder prone to worrying about this kind of shit but who absolutely LOVES Kratom and is mentally addicted (though not physically dependent) and though concerned by this study is looking for every reason NOT to be worried about it and is actually looking to hear as many intelligent people come up with reasons why it ISN'T alarming as possible, so I can just go back to getting high as fuck off Kratom 3 days a week and enjoy myself hahahhaha.

Really, I'm not going to deny it.

IMO from the research he's done Plasticity is an intelligent guy who clearly seems to know A LOT about Kratom and is probably as close to a Kratom expert as exists in a world where there probably are no doctors with MDs who specialize in a rare opioid that comes from Thailand and South Eastern Asia.

So hearing what he and others have to say is important to me since I don't know a lot about Kratom myself other than that I like it.

And no offense taken on the comment that I should relax, because as I explained, I'm an anxious dude, and Kratom also HELPS me relax, which is just one more reason I'd like to be able to continue to use it, which at this point, I am coming to the conclusion that I probably will...

 

[Mycophile]

Myco, mitragynine isn't kratom... it's just an alkaloid found in kratom. Stop trying to link that statement with kratom deaths, that's not what they're reffering to. People isolate alkaloids from plants and run tests on the safety of these isolated chemicals all the time. In order to do so they purposefully kill animals (usually rats) in order to determine how much of the drug it takes to kill 50% of those dosed, this is how the LD50 of a drug is determined. If I were to extract or synthesize pure mitragynine and inject someone with a lethal dose this does not mean that this person died from kratom, they died from mitragynine.

It just so happens that the way these rats? died when injected with insane amounts of mitragynine was from cardiac arrest. This is actually pretty amazing as mitragynine is the only opioid I know of that doesn't induce respiratory depression. Any other opioid would likely have killed the participants from respiratory depression before inducing cardiac arrest. Anyways go ahead and pick a single medication from your medicine cabinet, now go online and look up how many deaths and side-effects are attributed to that medication... you can find the negatives in any drug if you look for them.

Very good points.

I hadn't figured that they were rats, but yeah, they must be animals they are running tests on as no one is injecting pure mitragynine into themselves.

And I agree with the points on medications, like I said I decided to look up all the other meds that can cause Torsade de Pointes and many of them are things I've used MANY times, most of all Prozac which I was actually on EVERY DAY for TWENTY YEARS...which could certainly end up having long term effects, hopefully wont.....also Dexerine which I used probably over 100 times in my life, so overall there's no WAY I'll ever use Kratom as many times as those drugs, and they still aren't being pulled off the market.


Ok....I think I'm starting to calm down now lol.

We all know what I'm going to do...which is go ahead and continue to use Kratom now that very intelligent arguments have been used to show why this study is far from the final word on Kratom.

But that isn't to say that I wouldn't take a study proving Kratom's TRUE toxicity seriously...obviously by how much thought I'm putting into this one you can tell that I wasn't just going to brush it under the rug before placing my next $200 order of Kratom lol....

In the end, I guess it's just one more study about Hundreds or THOUSANDS of drugs, showing that they all have dangers associated with them, but I had to be absolutely sure that this wasn't *the big one* which final put the nail in the coffin for Kratom once and for all.

If you don't look into the legitimacy of these studies, especially one done by a web site as legit as WebMd, then how can you really know right??

I think I'll try to chill out now on this one, and just go back to CAUTIOUS Kratom usage, until the next fear mongering report comes out.....

Thanks again bud.