Neo-doves Part II

[Splatt]

I can back up Biscuit's statements, these have been going on for almost a decade in the israeli drug scene.
They banned something else, i forget what it is called exactly or if it was another cathinone analogue, but it was simply sold as something like "haghihat" (spelling)
it was after khat was found to be a problem in some communities.

 

[vanth]

I'd rather have something good not available any more than having continued access to something that is a mystery and may well be very harmful.

 

[phase_dancer]

Previously I was more or less for an analysis to improve harm reduction, BUT isnt it kinda ironic that the analysis resulted in getting them banned so quickly....?

If you think the analysis had anything to do with the recent announcements that the products would be banned, then I'd suggest you do a bit of research.

Here's a bit of history on Khat in Israel and the subsequent introduction of hagigat followed by other cathinone derivatives. Firstly, it's important to appreciate that Israel doesn't have an drug analogues law and that alone facilitates the rapid introduction of replacements.

Erowid
1.0 May 5, 2006
The following are collected notes about drug laws and are not intended to be definitive.

*
Notes on Drug Law

The Israeli drug law (Dangerous Drugs Act of 1973, new edition) does not define different classes for different drugs. All drugs which are controlled are illegal to posses, manufacture, sell, export, import and, of course, use.

There are other laws regarding controlled medical uses of drugs, but they never fall under the same sanctions as the substances listed in this particular law.

Moreover, there is no Israeli substitute for the Federal Analogues Act. This means that only specific and clear substances listed are illegal by this law.
-- KrazyPhrick May 2006

Khat popularity in Israel is considered to have largely stemmed from the migration of Yemenite Jews into Israel, which peaked during the 1950s. In 2003, Hagigat appeared on the market as a substitute to Khat. It was sold in capsules which conatined ~ 200mg of cathinone. Following a spate of reported poisonings, it was reveled the capsules contained significantly higher levels than found in Khat, and that absorption and duration varied considerably between Khat and Hagigat.

At the end of 2003, capsules of “Hagigat” (in Hebrew translation “Gat/Khat party”) appeared on the market as a substitute to Khat, especially in small convenience stores that are open 24 hours a day. The capsules were labeled “Natural stimulant and aphrodisiac for men and women, contains no chemicals; drink fluids liberally.” The content of the capsules was analyzed in the Laboratory of Identification and Forensic Sciences, Israel Police, using thin layer chromatography (TLC), gas chromatography – mass spectrometry (GC-MS), and infrared spectrophotometry (IR). Analysis revealed a white to off-white powder of cathinone in the amount of 200 mg. In September 2004, sporadic consultations pertaining to Hagigat exposures reached the Israel Poison Information Center and some patients were admitted to emergency departments, mainly in central Israel. In November 14, 2004, as a result of several severe poisonings, the Ministry of Health issued a
public alert.....

....It should be noted that most Israeli websites refer to Hagigat as a natural, safe, and inexpensive substitute for cocaine; one coined it “gatheine.” It is believed that these descriptions, together with its marketing as “sexual stimulant, contains no chemicals” and the relatively low price (about U.S. $10/
caps), contributed to its extensive consumption. It is hypothesized that media and Internet reports published after the alert of the Ministry of Health contributed to the large increase in referrals observed thereafter. We wish to believe that the subsequent sharp decrease in referrals was due to intensive regulatory and law enforcement activities. However, the reasons might also be a lower content of cathinone in newly marketed Hagigat capsules or the recent marketing of dimethylcathinone (“Rakefet”), a cathinone derivative with amphetamine–
like effects (37).


From; Bentur Y, Bloom-Krasik A, Raikhlin-Eisenkraft B. “Hagigat” – A New Illicit Form of Khat (Cathinone), Israel Poison Information Center, Rambam Health Care Campus, Faculty of Medicine, Technion, Haifa, Israel. First Published on: 15 August 2007

Bold added for emphasis; p_d. Dimethylcathinnone was identified in two neorg. products


So, while Khat was considered legal, hagigat was made illicit. The emergence of cathinone analogues is thought to have occured around this time.

The next quote was from a newspaper article dated Dec 4 2007.

Dec 4, 2007 0:55 | Updated Dec 4, 2007 1:11
5 hallucinogens added to dangerous drugs list

At the Health Ministry's request, five dangerous substances sold in kiosks and 24-hour shops were added to the list of "dangerous drugs" by the Knesset Labor, Social Affairs and Health Committee on Monday.

The addictive "mind-benders," which previously were illegal to sell but were not on the ministry's list of restricted imports, are called Halahit shel Ilanit (Ilanit's Hit); Halom Belavan (White Dream); Rakefet (Cyclamen); Aspirin Im Kritza (Aspirin With a Wink); and Hagigat Kayitz 2008 (Celebration of the Summer of 2008).

According to the Knesset committee, they come in capsule, pill and liquid form and cause serious and uncontrollable side effects. They also cause harm to internal organs, including the brain, heart, liver and kidneys. The main consumers of these drugs are teenagers.

Five percent of all drug abuse files opened during the past year involved this type of drug, according to Dep.-Cmdr. Udi Wolf of the Internal Security Ministry. Only this past week, he said, 12,000 capsules were seized, each costing NIS 80 to NIS 120. Until now, those guilty of possession could get up to three years in jail, but now that they are on the serious drugs list, they can get up to 20 years in prison.

These capsules replace the well-known hagigat, which was previously made illegal, and now they have various street names.

"Drug dealers have become increasingly sophisticated and clever" in their aim of selling drugs, committee chairman MK Yitzhak Galanti (Gil Pensioners) said. "This requires the legal authorities to become more alert in identifying new drug compounds. I have no doubt that as we add more to the list, new ones will appear."

In light of the above, it is obvious cathinone and analogues have been under investigation by the Israel Health Ministry for some time. It should also be noted that results of the local analyses were reported to one state department only, and that this occured well after Israeli authorities had planned to ban these substances.

I mean now they are gone and nobody needs the results for harm reduction anymore ^^ And it happened so fast that the complex results didnt allow any helpful conclusions anyway - other than that they are probably not very healthy, which everybody could know before.

There are several conclusions which aid harm reduction and allow users to make a more informed choice. I seem to have to repeat myself on this and related issues, but here goes again...

From a Harm Reduction perspective, knowing the ingredients or speculating on possible variations in formulations can allow for a better informed choice, based upon:

* Outcomes of the chemical analyses
* Survey report
* Personal experiences, BL user, and friends' reports
* What has been learned from literature
* Legal risks
* Work related implications such as performance- safety and drug testing as it relates to any detectable drug with a long metabolic half life.
* Driving etc- as above
* Possible health risks associated with the identified, previously known chemicals
* Adverse effects as noted by users
* Postulated pharmacology of the unknown or unresearched chemicals, arrived at by studying structurally similar substances, and includes addiction potential, possible predisposing factors such as illness or hereditory conditions and substance interactions (i.e. the combinations of drugs within the products, prescribed medications, illicit drugs etc).

I know it's childish to demand not to analyze them only because it could get them banned IF it would help harm reduction, but the way I see it in the end this analysis did the opposite: Now a new totally untested range will be consumed by many soon, at least neos had months and months testing by now.

I believe I've already addressed the legislative issue. I've also said that many new compounds are destined to arrive on the scene, and, whether or not these were banned, this will continue to occur. It should therefore be seen as even more important that HR keeps abreast of these new compounds, by revealing the contents as soon as these new drugs appear. Months and months of anecdotal reports do not provide evidence of safety. The BL survey indicates most users suffered side effects. We also know that methcathinone and cathinone have been reported to cause cardiac ischemia in older people and that other potentially life threatening affects have also been noted.

From Bentur et al

The relationship between clinical severity, amount of Hagigat capsules, and coexposures is presented in Table 3. No association could be
established between these parameters or between severity and route of exposure. Fifteen patients required observation and treatment in an emergency department, 10 were admitted (three of these to an intensive coronary care unit and one to a neurosurgical ward), and five could be managed in a community clinic. One patient required no referral to a health care facility as he was asymptomatic 21 days post-exposure. No fatalities were recorded during the study period. Treatment was supportive, including sedation with benzodiazepines, analgesics, vasodilators, diuretics, oxygen, and mechanical ventilation where appropriate. One patient required neurosurgical
intervention for intracerebral hemorrhage.

 

[Splatt]

How do you stabalize cathinone? I thought it degraded to cathine quickly

 

[phase_dancer]

^ yes it does, and that is why the cathinone in Khat degrades within 24-48 hours after harvest if not stored properly. One way of preventing degradation is to freeze the freshly picked leaves, but another would be to prepare the phthalimido derivative, so that's another possible reason why this compound was included. Unlike cathinone itself (primary amine), secondary and tertiary amines are much more stable, so metamfepramone and 4-methylmethcathinone don't require such protection.

 

[Splatt]

yeah knew the analogues etc. were stable enough, but one of the quotes above says the energy pills sold at 24 hour shops contained 200mg cathinone. just thought that was weird.. or did i miss something.

 

[phase_dancer]

No, hagigat, at least originally, was normally only cathinone afaik. I'd imagine the product would be kept in a fridge, and have a relatively short shelf life. Perhaps turnover rate was high?

 

[Splatt]

ahh makes sense

 

[neuwelt]

Cathinones with primary amines are stable in their salt forms, i.e as hydrochlorides.

 

[Splatt]

ah ok i get it

 

[solly]

@ p_d
i'm not allowed to PM you yet (i did try - but mods pls delete this if this post if necessary)

thanks for the great info you've put here - i support this approach totally.

i may either be paranoid or ill due to neos i'm not sure

if you could comment on my post here
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=359749
it would be greatly appreciated.

regds,
solly

 

[Biscuit]

The addictive "mind-benders," which previously were illegal to sell but were not on the ministry's list of restricted imports, are called Halahit shel Ilanit (Ilanit's Hit); Halom Belavan (White Dream); Rakefet (Cyclamen); Aspirin Im Kritza (Aspirin With a Wink); and Hagigat Kayitz 2008 (Celebration of the Summer of 200.

According to the Knesset committee, they come in capsule, pill and liquid form and cause serious and uncontrollable side effects. They also cause harm to internal organs, including the brain, heart, liver and kidneys. The main consumers of these drugs are teenagers.

P_D: Is there any indication that the chemicals in the products referred to above are the same or similar to the chemicals in the NEO range?

 

[phase_dancer]

solly: I'll address your post first chance I get.

Biscuit: There's nothing specific stated in any article I could find, although first mention from Neorganics of the upcoming ban was made a week or so following the newspaper article (see hoptis's post)

Anyway, must dash. I'll be away for the next 10 days or so. Will try to check in when I get the opportunity

 

[Mr TIMO]

taking ND in lines, does anyone else find the ND to peak after 20-30 minutes, and then it declines fairly quickly?
i haven't compared this to swallowing them though...

 

[Splatt]

same hapopens with swallowing although it feels alot cleaner and has less of that very weird vision impairment you get when snorting or IVing it.

it feels much more like mdma when you take at least 3 at once. but has a fair come down... the peak comes quickly.. then fades after half an hour, wanting you to take more/other drugs.. it is much more "MORE FIENDISH" than mdma.

 

[solly]

@ p_d: thankyou

@ splatt: MORE FIENDISH is spot on.
these fuckers call to you from whereever they are stashed.
i used to be able to sit on pills for weeks
after 10yrs of not doing anything like that i bought 18 for a 2week vacation and after the first go it was hard to leave them alone - good fun (short acting which was nice in a way)
but the desire to keep munching was not good - i'm glad they're going.
i never used to get that top up chasing on e.

 

[Mona Lisa]

I have always been able to sit on mine. I must be weird. :D

 

[jayslapmc]

hey

im just wondering what the chances are of me being detected in a urine drug screen for amphetamines, after taking neo-doves.

any feedback would be great

thanks

 

[solly]

@mona - top respect to yr willpower - you must have a bucketload - for me i think the only answer is not having any and not buying any.

 

[johnnyonelove]

hey

im just wondering what the chances are of me being detected in a urine drug screen for amphetamines, after taking neo-doves.

any feedback would be great

thanks

the doves do not have any amphetamine based substance in them (check this post on page 6 of this thread). so you should be fine.