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Native Americans and Psychedelics

Slightly on topic....did you know 2c-b is used for shamanic healing in south Africa?? I did not.....sure I heard eros pills (2cb) was sold there for a time but I was unaware such a phenethyamine was holy! Those poor south Africans... Everyone knows 2ct7 is far holier than 2c-b!

This is rather old news, but seeing how few people know of it and even fewer people have an understanding of how this applies to current debates on the benifits of semi-synthetic compounds I felt it would be appropriate to write on the subject.

I will not give a history of 2CB or spend a lot of time explaining what it is, I suggest reading Thanatos to Eros and PIHKAL for more information there. What I will point out however is that as the linked article points out for the first time in hisotry traditional shamanic healers choose a semi-synthetic ( meaning a compound made in a laboratory but based on a natural occuring chemical, in this case mescaline) over their traditional plants.

I have had the honor of knowing individuals in South Africa, who will not be named to protect their privacy who have intimate knowledge on this occurance and so I will fill in the blanks on the subject, based on what I have learned from them.

2CB was maketed as a visionary trance producing medicine to traditional South African healers who traditionaly worked with visionary plant medicines, the chemical was sold to them in traditional herbalist shops as Ubulawu Nomathotholo, which is a traditional name for these visionary medicines. From what I understand the traditional visionary medicines where expensive, rare, and potential fatal if taken in the wrong way or in the wrong amounts. The intention that traditional Sangoma's had in working with these plants was to consult their ancestors for divination and curing of peoples problems and ailments. Due to the advantages of working with a cheaper, safer and more easily available visionary medicine the plants where left behind by some Sangomas and 2CB became the preffered medicine to work with.

This was a historical moment.... traditional healers choose 2CB over their traditional plants! One was quoted by my informant as to saying, " it brings us to the place of our ancestors, just as the plants do."

I beleive that this is important knowledge today to pay special attention to. Many people have a very strong bias against any lab made chemical, any semi-synthetic. People also have a strong bias against chemicals extracted from plants such is the case of DMT extracted from plants for smoking, adding to changa blends or taken in a capsule or in water along with a harmala alkaliod to produce the "ayahausca effect" as Ott called it. Often those that debate the practice of even working with extracted alkaliods confuse these natural occuring alkaliods as being synthetic, or synthesized, when in actuality they are simply naturally occuring alkaliod extracts.

What is fascinating however about this historical choice of a semi-synthetic coumpond ( a product of nature AND mans tinkering, Sasha Shulgin to be exact!) over a natural occuring plant, is that it shows us something that these personal and perhaps uninformed bias's against such compounds may be over looking. "They take us to the place of our ancestors," these chemicals can infact offer us a way of doing healing work that is equal; at least in the eyes of traditional shamans, to that of natural alkliods extracted via hot water from plants. What appears to be the basis of these notions that the chemicals are in some way sacriligous to the work of shamans if shamans themselves choose them over their traditional plants?

I recall years ago reading some work by Claudio Naranjo who gave LSD to traditional amazonian healers... they of coarse loved it and asked him to bring more next time he came to visit. This has always seriously resonated with my personal experiences in both my relationship with traditional plant teacher curanderismo and circle work with peers. My peers and I could never understand the bias as have any real basis in reality, the arguements seemed to be moot point.

What seems to me to be lacking in many of these debates and arguements over which is better a chemical or a tea (filled with chemicals BTW) is an emphasis on intention and how we relate to the experience. Set and setting has always been pointed out in the entheogen community as importance. The inner set is often times our expectations as to how an experience will go or why. if we beleive in other words that a chemical is profane or inferior in comparision to a plant, plant extract, or the chemical extraction from a plant, we create a 'set', a self fullfilling prophecy.

We live in a world in crisis and we need as many allies as we can get in the cultivation of awareness. The personal growth and healing we need, we need badly, and the earth needs us badly to have this healing for its sake as well. Why create limitations when we need more options to be succesful?

Another point of contention is that these plants are made with polluting chemicals (which is always an interesting arguement seeing how so many pollute the earth via importation and travel to distant lands for work with entheogens), but what we are seeing today is the advent of green chemistry. Solvents made from distilled oranges are actively being used by ecologically and socially aware chemists these days... and the more people explore the alternatives the more we discover we can do ethically and in ways that truly benifit the whole.

It is interesting to point out that the Sangoma's choose the 2CB over the traditional plants because they where growing scarce and where increasing in cost. This ment that the need had increased and they had over harvested these traditional plants, ie. the need for them created an destructive ecological and social impact. It may very well be that semi-synthetic chemicals such as 2CB may be an answer to providing people with the ability to find the answers and healing they need while reducing the social and ecological impact. We don't know if this is a possability because the bias people are developing creates a block to discovering these answers.

My question is... if traditional Sangoma's choose 2CB over their plants... what do they know that we do not?

Forgive me quoting shroomery but e original article appears offline.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14965666
 
The Current Events & Politics subforum of Bluelight. :)
 
Ah yes, 2-CumcumBer. Of course.
 
Fully synthetic as far as I know...on the other hand...maybe it is found in nature somewhere...perhaps in a sea cucumber?

Probably a great guess. I won't be even remotely surprised if we find 2C-B in the ocean some day. They have already identified 2,4-dibromo-5-methoxyphenethylamine and related molecules in bryozoans, after all....

625257650-amathia_2cb.png


amatwil.jpg
 
Oh wow. :) Yeah I've always wondered if we'll encounter some of these "research chemicals" deep in the jungle or in the ocean someday. Particularly some other tryptamines, I mean mushrooms will already put a hydroxy group on the 4 position of a base tryptamine if you introduce the base tryptamine to the substrate (this was discovered when DiPT was given to mushrooms and they produced 4-HO-DiPT and I presume 4-PhO-DiPT also).
 
Heh, threw that out as a wild card, with knowledge of brominated tryptamines. If any 2c were "natural" I'd wager 2cb would be the one first found. Awesome research Kaleida! Too cool. I also wager that pea would be somewhat active were the tail not dimethylated.
 
So, I was talking to my friend last week about psychedelics and she mentioned something about how there are Native American tribes who you can visit and they do this little trip guide thing. I guess you go to them and they give you something like slavia or something and then the members (or member) of the tribe takes you on this spiritual trip and they act as your guide for your trip. They have I guess some sort of program or guide for this. It sounds really enlightening and I am kind of interested in where I can find something like this but I don't know where I can find it. Do any of you guys know where I can find something like this? Because my friend doesn't know, she heard it from a friend and I may be interested in partaking in this later in life if it's still a thing.

These kind of rituals are embedded in a culture. Its like somebody wanting to drink wine, because he heard Christians call it the blood of gods son and alcohol can make people intoxicated.
 
Oh wow. :) Yeah I've always wondered if we'll encounter some of these "research chemicals" deep in the jungle or in the ocean someday. Particularly some other tryptamines, I mean mushrooms will already put a hydroxy group on the 4 position of a base tryptamine if you introduce the base tryptamine to the substrate (this was discovered when DiPT was given to mushrooms and they produced 4-HO-DiPT and I presume 4-PhO-DiPT also).

Yeah, I'm right there with you, I'd bet money there are some psychoactive things out there in nature that right now we think we created; even DMT was made in the lab before it was discovered in nature, though it is a pretty simple molecule. I bet we will find some other cool tryptamines too though, there's all kind of nifty stuff like that we already know of.... Agroclavine, one of the ergot alkaloids also in the common LSA seeds is literally just a conformationally constrained MPT molecule, and mitragynine from kratom actually contains the entire structure of 4-HO-DPT as the largest part of its design, just also constrained and substituted. And of course there's the stuff like 5-Br-DMT in the ocean that seems at least mildly active for some.... We've definitely only scratched the surface of this stuff, it's going to be pretty exciting to see new discoveries in this area over the years as our drug knowledge and technology continues to snowball.

I love that thing with the mushrooms too, always found it fascinating. I'd try it with AMT if I could. :)

Heh, threw that out as a wild card, with knowledge of brominated tryptamines. If any 2c were "natural" I'd wager 2cb would be the one first found. Awesome research Kaleida! Too cool. I also wager that pea would be somewhat active were the tail not dimethylated.

Happy to help spread the word. :) Yeah, it sure seems quite possible it's out there somewhere! That picture is actually just misleading to one who is used to seeing molecules drawn the way drug users tend to it too, those are in fact just hydrogens coming off the tail so it's not dimethylated, it's literally just 2C-B with the 2-position swapped out. I bet it would be somewhat active too, would love to try it myself....
 
Yeah I was gonna say, I wonder if anyone has ever tried it? Has it been used indigenously? Does anyone even know?

There's no telling what we could find in the oceans and/or the rainforests. Certainly there are many novel intoxicants. Ibogaine and related alkaloids are some incredible molecules, so complex. I read some wiki article about another one... these aren't it, but here are some I randomly found:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeruginascin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desformylflustrabromine (also from bryozoans, incidentally)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convolutindole_A
etc
 
I think argoclavine would be a conformationally restricted n-isopentane-n-methyltryptamine....or you could call it a restricted 4-methyl-n-methyl-n-isobutyltryptamine...its not mpt cause too many carbons. Some real chemist should speak on this....Im bad with new names (of current bl chem experts)...so I only know to wish F&B were here to clear it up.

Yeah, I'm right there with you, I'd bet money there are some psychoactive things out there in nature that right now we think we created; even DMT was made in the lab before it was discovered in nature, though it is a pretty simple molecule. I bet we will find some other cool tryptamines too though, there's all kind of nifty stuff like that we already know of.... Agroclavine, one of the ergot alkaloids also in the common LSA seeds is literally just a conformationally constrained MPT molecule, and mitragynine from kratom actually contains the entire structure of 4-HO-DPT as the largest part of its design, just also constrained and substituted. And of course there's the stuff like 5-Br-DMT in the ocean that seems at least mildly active for some.... We've definitely only scratched the surface of this stuff, it's going to be pretty exciting to see new discoveries in this area over the years as our drug knowledge and technology continues to snowball.

I love that thing with the mushrooms too, always found it fascinating. I'd try it with AMT if I could. :)



Happy to help spread the word. :) Yeah, it sure seems quite possible it's out there somewhere! That picture is actually just misleading to one who is used to seeing molecules drawn the way drug users tend to it too, those are in fact just hydrogens coming off the tail so it's not dimethylated, it's literally just 2C-B with the 2-position swapped out. I bet it would be somewhat active too, would love to try it myself....
 
, it's literally just 2C-B with the 2-position swapped out. I bet it would be somewhat active too, would love to try it myself....

Heh...thats funny...swore I saw "c" s.....yeah I'd bethca the 2cb analogue found in the sea could very well be arrive. Certainly bromine substitutes for methoxy groups in all manor of other drugs.

So cool...the organic 2cb analogue you showed us Kaleida..someone make this stuff!
 
So cool...the organic 2cb analogue you showed us Kaleida..someone make this stuff!

Yeah I told my friend about that this evening when I went over to his house. :) I wonder if it has been bioassayed in humans? I'm extremely curious what it would be like.
 
I don't think so...then again just because I've not heard of it doesn't mean others have not....using the logic that the world does not revolve around me. It sure does sure does evolve as it circles the sun....trippy!
 
White's do get invited to take part of Native American Church services

To my knowledge, it's only with peyote, as no dispensation to use mushrooms has been obtained in the country. It's definitely not your psychedelic tourism kind of thing, though.

Olkevuha Native American Church, a breakaway faction, does invite all Races, which is the name given to the controversy within the Native American Church, itself, and will invite anyone to participate and worship the Creator, with them. Again, this is not a tourism type thing. It is sincere belief.
 
Do you know anything else of the group of conservative San Pedro-eating Christians?

Do you know the name of their organization or of any of their leadership?

Thank you for whatever you might reference, even simply how you heard about them.

- Rita Prell
 
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