Opioids Naltrexone tolerance and reverse withdrawal causes opioid high

[ixy]

I was actually just wondering about exactly this a few days ago, if maybe"withdrawaling"from naltrexone would feel like being on an opiate
Here's my thinking:
First of all, withdrawal from pretty much any drug does the opposite to your brain of what the drug it self does . As an example, opiates make you high by causing the release of a pile of dopamine into your brain. Opiate w/d happens when your body has stopped producing enough dopamine because it's used to getting it from opiates.
Then it occurred to me that, maybe if you could get physically "addicted" to something that made you feel lousy, the "withdrawal" might be fun. Naltrexone was the first think that popped into my head, I thought it might do the opposite of what opiate addiction does. Maybe your body would start making more dopamine to compensate for the naltrexone blocking a bunch of your receptors and then when you stopped the naltrexone you would get high because of all the extra dopamine your body had been making.

 

[Serotonin101]

^^^ that logic isn't quite correct. Naltrexone would have to make you feel like super shit normally for it to have withdrawal effects to be remotely pleasant. Also I have a feeling that its status as an antagonist nullifies this idea as antagonists aren't supposed to be psychoactive on their own, merely taking up the spot in the receptor. If it was an inverse agonist then we may have pleasurable withdrawal symptoms as then the drug is psychoavtive as produces effects on its own

 

[Swimmingdancer]

^^^ that logic isn't quite correct. Naltrexone would have to make you feel like super shit normally for it to have withdrawal effects to be remotely pleasant. Also I have a feeling that its status as an antagonist nullifies this idea as antagonists aren't supposed to be psychoactive on their own, merely taking up the spot in the receptor. If it was an inverse agonist then we may have pleasurable withdrawal symptoms as then the drug is psychoavtive as produces effects on its own

I thought naltrexone acts as an inverse agonist in people who have used opioid agonists? And I thought it was well-established that naltrexone can increase the number of opioid receptor binding sites? (which would then make your body's natural opioids have more of an effect)

 

[jollypecker]

i believe its placebo , i was on naltrexone for 18 months 50mg daily it made me depressed ans suicidal, even if your body produced tonnes more endigenous opiates the naltrexone fills the receptors and blockn natural endorphins too , also when i stopped takingit yes i felt good but normal good i shudder to even think of sallowin a 50mg naltrexone now , but yes i do agree about the sensitivity i used 10£ of heroin 5 days after that yr an half and was in a ridiculous state as tho id chrged 40 quid of pure diamorphine , but im sure if 50mg blocks huge doses of heroin for up to 72 hrs ,natural endorphins have nohope, but please get liver function tests if you continue to do this i had to get em every 3 months and after 18 months had to stop taking em as my liver count (of whatever they test) had doubled ,

 

[Serotonin101]

I thought naltrexone acts as an inverse agonist in people who have used opioid agonists? And I thought it was well-established that naltrexone can increase the number of opioid receptor binding sites? (which would then make your body's natural opioids have more of an effect)

Abstinence and subsequent antagonist use (naltrexone) causes receptor down regulated. Opiate dependence I thought up regulation of receptor sites (I might have this backwards). Endorphins in my experience and from other personal accounts cause little euphoria but are mainly for painkilling properties (hence low dose naltrexone for pain patience ay night). The antagonism at the receptor site prevents other chemicals from agonizing the receptor (endogenous and exogenous) providing the withdrawal effect for those that are still dependent. An inverse agonist would ALWAYS produce opiate withdrawal effects regardless of dependency.

Also if body endorphins provided strong opioid effects, wouldn't the known effects such as pupil constriction, slowed breathing, etc be present during times such as sexual orgasm or when an individual experiences extreme pain?

 

[daveslaine]

Abstinence and subsequent antagonist use (naltrexone) causes receptor down regulated. Opiate dependence I thought up regulation of receptor sites (I might have this backwards). Endorphins in my experience and from other personal accounts cause little euphoria but are mainly for painkilling properties (hence low dose naltrexone for pain patience ay night). The antagonism at the receptor site prevents other chemicals from agonizing the receptor (endogenous and exogenous) providing the withdrawal effect for those that are still dependent. An inverse agonist would ALWAYS produce opiate withdrawal effects regardless of dependency.

Also if body endorphins provided strong opioid effects, wouldn't the known effects such as pupil constriction, slowed breathing, etc be present during times such as sexual orgasm or when an individual experiences extreme pain?

Those effects dont exist with endorphins.

I stopped Naltrexone 2 days ago. Dont care for it anymore. I hardly feel pain, but sometimes, pain is what gives me motivation. Ive been pretty unmotivated lately.

Also, just drank 250g poppy seeds and clearly this has real opiate effects.

But I cant be bothered to screw around with opiates anymore. Naltrexone is still an opiate, still a morphine analogue basically. I thought I stopped messing around with my opioid receptors, but it doesnt matter whether Im taking an agonist or antagonist, its still messing with my opiate receptors.

At 19, Im way too young to be either touching opiates, or any drugs period..

I think drugs like cocaine or MDMA at times suit me more than Opiates. (havent even done these)

Opiates are nice, but only when you are old, have done everything, already have everything. taking opiates now is counterproductive as hell.

There was a time where opiates were wonderful to uplift me and give me hope, but theyve served their purpose. The only thing they can do now is make me addicted.

I thought Id never think about needles or Heroin, but now, Ive actually been contemplating or wanting to inject Heroin. These are the dangers of opiates, and I cant be bothered to f*k with them.

Although I do inject substances inside my butcheeks lol (AAS), injecting Heroin into a vein is way different thing.

Opiates really just destroy you in the long run from my experience. This will be my last time I take any opiates, including opiate antagonists.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Abstinence and subsequent antagonist use (naltrexone) causes receptor down regulated. Opiate dependence I thought up regulation of receptor sites (I might have this backwards).

Yeah it's backwards

Also if body endorphins provided strong opioid effects, wouldn't the known effects such as pupil constriction, slowed breathing, etc be present during times such as sexual orgasm or when an individual experiences extreme pain?

It's probably a lot more complex than that and you'd have to consider a lot of other factors (like the fact that other mechanisms than just endorphins are involved in those things). However, this study found that runners get pupil constriction and that naloxone reversed the pupil constriction, and various tests on animals such as this one on dogs have found beta-endorphin (and other endorphins in other studies) to cause respiratory depression, which could also be reversed by naloxone. As for euphoria there is tons of research linking endorphins with euphoria. As far as endorphins potentially causing strong effects similar to opioid drugs, well wouldn't that depend on their amounts and on the state of receptors?

 

[Serotonin101]

^^learn something new everyday. I guess its not common to notice the pupil constriction as most running for me takes place in a well lit area. Also never knew about the beta endorphins causing resp depression. Good shit. I always knew endorphins were released with exercise as my morning shot of h after a 5 mile run provided a better rush and stronger high but the figured the effects were more subjective than factual. I can see it now "Marathon runner dies of endorphin overdose" if we master a way to keep endorphins from breaking down.

 

[Treefa]

So basically Naloxone withdrawal is the tits?

 

[tricomb]

Naltrexone is still an opiate, still a morphine analogue....<snip>....

Opiates really just destroy you in the long run from my experience. This will be my last time I take any opiates, including opiate antagonists.

It's actually closer to being an oxymorphone analogue, but that's just semantics, I just wanted to say in reference to your last sentence.... I wish you the best with that, report back with your progress!

 

[BlueHues]

It's more likely you are just not feeling shitty any more after the naltrexone kicks off.

Although, if naltrexone is a broad enough spectrum opioid antagonist, maybe kappa antagonism plays a role here. Who knows..

Like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer repeatedly because it feels so good when you stop!

 

[Serotonin101]

Like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer repeatedly because it feels so good when you stop!

So I'm thinking of trying this. What kind of hammer do you recommend for this procedure? Standard claw hammer? Ball-ping hammer? Rubber mallet? Just want to exercise proper harm reduction for this.

 

[Ksa]

It's like my parents saying that after an intense effort, comes great reward because it feels so peaceful to sit and watch what you have accomplished. I did my best to teach them that it's false peace, since the pain of the effort outweights the benefits of the latter peace! But...they are stuck in their ways, it's like talking to a wall.

True peace and enjoyment is when you get reward for no reason and the reward outweights the pain. However here, there is potential for the pain to be less than the latter reward.

 

[BlueHues]

So I'm thinking of trying this. What kind of hammer do you recommend for this procedure? Standard claw hammer? Ball-ping hammer? Rubber mallet? Just want to exercise proper harm reduction for this.

Come on, this isn't funny....obviously the rubber mallet!

 

[daveslaine]

It's like my parents saying that after an intense effort, comes great reward because it feels so peaceful to sit and watch what you have accomplished. I did my best to teach them that it's false peace, since the pain of the effort outweights the benefits of the latter peace! But...they are stuck in their ways, it's like talking to a wall.

True peace and enjoyment is when you get reward for no reason and the reward outweights the pain. However here, there is potential for the pain to be less than the latter reward.

Lol, spoken like a true lazy person.

I have never made any progress in my life whether physically at the gym or mentally without either going through intense physical pain lifting heavy and large volume, or going through a ton of nerve pain trying to work on this, then work on improving that, then that, then that.

No pain, no gain, is certainly not a bs statement.

Anyone can be a heroin junky, but have you ever seen a positive story from heroin abuse, or even heroin use?

I think Cocaine abuse might even help improve someones life versus opioids. Maybe codeine is mild enough not to screw up someones life, but the intensity at which Heroin attaches to the opioid receptors and at that strength, why even do anything when you can feel like a champ on it.... but can you see how you will never experience anything with that mindset/attitude?

I'm still surprised that with all my drug use, I have yet to even try MDMA, Cocaine, DMT, and I have only used Adderall/Ritalin on rare occasions and dont even remember the effects much. Those are drugs a 19 year old should be using.

Although I hope might next experience is MDMA, sounds like it is far more pleasurable and more of a "high" than Morphine.

Although Oxies are the bomb, literally the strongest euphoria I have ever felt.

Now that I think about it, I miss the days of being high on Trams. I believe what made them effective and caused me to have strong respiratory depression at 150mg was probably because the NRI and SRI effects intensified the opiate effects. Although the pure euphoria from Oxies are the strongest... too bad it has a very short half life, and is most addictive, and loses its appeal in a matter of 48 hours

 

[BupeTroop]

Coming from a person that was heavily injecting heroin and oxy from the age of 14-18(and off and on since for the passed 4 years) i dont think a 19 year old should be using ANY DRUG. You seem like a smart kid, use your better judgment and just dont use anything at all. While thats harder said then done, if you do feel you have to use just use on a time to time basis, but im sure you know all of this already.

 

[BupeTroop]

14-18*

 

[Ksa]

Lol, spoken like a true lazy person.

I have never made any progress in my life whether physically at the gym or mentally without either going through intense physical pain lifting heavy and large volume, or going through a ton of nerve pain trying to work on this, then work on improving that, then that, then that.

No pain, no gain, is certainly not a bs statement.

Anyone can be a heroin junky, but have you ever seen a positive story from heroin abuse, or even heroin use?

I think Cocaine abuse might even help improve someones life versus opioids. Maybe codeine is mild enough not to screw up someones life, but the intensity at which Heroin attaches to the opioid receptors and at that strength, why even do anything when you can feel like a champ on it.... but can you see how you will never experience anything with that mindset/attitude?

I'm still surprised that with all my drug use, I have yet to even try MDMA, Cocaine, DMT, and I have only used Adderall/Ritalin on rare occasions and dont even remember the effects much. Those are drugs a 19 year old should be using.

Although I hope might next experience is MDMA, sounds like it is far more pleasurable and more of a "high" than Morphine.

Although Oxies are the bomb, literally the strongest euphoria I have ever felt.

Now that I think about it, I miss the days of being high on Trams. I believe what made them effective and caused me to have strong respiratory depression at 150mg was probably because the NRI and SRI effects intensified the opiate effects. Although the pure euphoria from Oxies are the strongest... too bad it has a very short half life, and is most addictive, and loses its appeal in a matter of 48 hours

Cool story bro, try Yoga and lose the weights...and the Adderall on which I assume you were on when you wrote this.

 

[Ksa]

Society told you you should look like Kalvin Klein models with 6 packs and biceps and be hard working so that you can spend your hard earned cash on buying stuff you don't need. The only time your physically intense lifestyle will ever serve you is during job search, because employers look for a beefy animal to work his ass out like in 1740 south florida when they were getting shippments from Africa. They can no longer tell you "hey niqqer, fetch me a cup of water", but they will tell you that you have an interesting accent and mind them asking......where is it from?

Delusions my friend. Everyone wants to suck the juice out of you and all you're doing by getting 6 packs and injecting hormones is you're shaving off 1 year, 3 years, 5, 10 years off your life to please society. Your heart is a pump. I'm a chemical engineer. The more you work a pump out, the sooner it fails. And in our installations, we always have a spare pump near every single one of them? You know why? Because pumps fail all the fucking time. More than any other component in a plant.

Take care.

 

[daveslaine]

Society told you you should look like Kalvin Klein models with 6 packs and biceps and be hard working so that you can spend your hard earned cash on buying stuff you don't need. The only time your physically intense lifestyle will ever serve you is during job search, because employers look for a beefy animal to work his ass out like in 1740 south florida when they were getting shippments from Africa. They can no longer tell you "hey niqqer, fetch me a cup of water", but they will tell you that you have an interesting accent and mind them asking......where is it from?

Delusions my friend. Everyone wants to suck the juice out of you and all you're doing by getting 6 packs and injecting hormones is you're shaving off 1 year, 3 years, 5, 10 years off your life to please society. Your heart is a pump. I'm a chemical engineer. The more you work a pump out, the sooner it fails. And in our installations, we always have a spare pump near every single one of them? You know why? Because pumps fail all the fucking time. More than any other component in a plant.

Take care.

Lol u wot m8? I'm not getting big to work.

I'm working on a major website and its been being worked on for nearly 6 months now with thousands of dollars spent on it. I want to get a job to fund it.

And hey, life is a lot more fun when you have a nice body to go to the beach with and enjoy your time there and with some of the women(no brag). During such events, you're mind is most likely high on serotonin, dopamine, and adrenaline.

These three are what I call "life" neurotransmitters. On opiates, living doesn't happen much, usually contentment then dying happens.

Actually, opiates are more effective when you have new neural pathways. If all you do is just go to work, come home, eat food, sleep, wake up, and repeat, you're going to develop tolerance fast.

Now if you go on a vacation for example, meet lots of new ppl, then pop an oxie, I guarantee you you'll feel it's full effects mate.

But you're also lazy my friend. I'd rather live 5 years strong than live for 70 years as nothing, fading away