My Claim: ESP, and the like.

[burn out]

Consciousness is all linked, in fact there is one consciousness. The constant flow of life that is the Bio-mechanical evolutionary system of DNA, which remains mysterious today, is all one being. We as "Individual" humans gain a false ego that misleads us, with the help of the complicated work of the senses and domestication received as a child, into thinking our body and consciousness is separate from the rest of the whole. In actuality, our body is run by the same life force as everything else.

this is the essential message i have gotten from my drug experiences. you sort of lost me with the rest of your post though.

also, i can never work out specifics. in other words i have tried to work out different philosophical belief systems in the past but they always run into major problems and unanswered questions, not to mention the sheer impossibility of grasping certain concepts with the dualistic, rational intellect.

 

[Obyron]

If you can prove it, James Randi has a million dollars with your name on it. That'll buy a lot of DMT.

I believe in ESP in only the most limited, strictly defined terms-- perception outside of the five senses. This includes things like being keenly attuned to others' emotions ("empathy" of the social worker, non-supernatural variety), or knowing your friends so well that you can complete one another's sentences, or an LEO's years of experience allowing them to tell when someone is lying.

If one is able to witness the cell communication and DNA clockwork while in altered states, then what is to stop one from experiencing thought waves (possibly more) emitted from another brain's neurological web while in altered states?

Your question falls apart at the premise.

 

[Dorkeone]

How does my question fall apart? i'm simply asking why deny the possibility of ESP

 

[Obyron]

The premise of your question is: "If one is able to witness the cell communication and DNA clockwork while in altered states..." then, paraphrased, why not ESP? Compare to, "If unicorns exist, then why not astral badgers?" That's what I meant about your question falling apart at the premise.

I don't deny the possibility of ESP, but I certainly deny the probability of supernatural ESP.

 

[vegan]

i agree with the first part of your post which i take as a fact
i agree with the second part as a very likely possibily. all the more probable as our consciousness will continue evolving

(no time to read the rest of the thread though)

 

[phan]

Having not read anything posted in this thread so far, I'll say this.

ESP is nothing more than the complex act of reading subtle facial expressions, or hearing subtle sounds, or a combination of both.

 

[Dorkeone]

if you can allow me to explain an experience i've had in relation to this subject using mushrooms, it resembles much of what you wrote. In an altered state of consciousness one night, after meditating for an unknown amount of time, i was sitting with a girl, a very close friend of mine. i looked her in the eyes and all of a sudden i began to feel her emotion. the smile on her face generated wave like movements through me. i began to know what she was going to say as she was saying it, and this lasted for all of 2 minutes. it was an amazing experience, and of course it is always difficult (for me anyway) to put such psychedelic events into words, so i may not have covered it the way i would've liked, forgive me.

 

[swilow]

^I've had a similar experience, and while I agree that there one becomes more highly attuned to body anguage, facial expressions and the like when tripping (and we already have a huge capacity for such communication and understanding when sober), something more seems to be at work. But is it mysterious, or is it just that common thing we all share at work? We're all humans; its odd that it startles us when someone happens to possiby think and feel like you- we share more then not. . .

I think that what we consider 'supernatural' has an explanation; it must, even if its something utterly preposterous or completely un-graspable by the human mind...It will take years before science, which seems to be the only way to validate something, gets around to really studying such paranormal phenomena, and I think that psychedelic drugs wil be an important part. All we can do for now is speculate. Its fun though

 

[B9]

^^ Psychedelics aren't actually necessary for mystical or ESP type experiences IME.

ESP is nothing more than the complex act of reading subtle facial expressions, or hearing subtle sounds, or a combination of both.

Well if the other subject is in the same physical vicinity you may well have a point - but if they're several miles away you certainly don't have a point. I'd agree sometimes people mistake what you describe as ESP - however what you describe isn't always the scenario experienced by others.

 

[nbsp]

I have experienced verifiable extrasensory phenomena. I've done it both on and off psychedelics, but I largely credit psychedelics for helping me develop the receptivity to it as I've matured as a person. Now, I can't hack your thoughts at will, or blast you to pieces with psionic rays, mind you, but I do feel as though my ability to perceive has tangibly superceded that traditionally accredited to a human. Does that make me psychic, telepathic, or magical in some way? I really don't even have a clue.

I am inclined to believe a greater attunement to this sort of thing is just one of the many completely natural symptoms of the progression of our consciousnesses. Who knows. Perhaps one day, we'll all be walking around with transpersonal sonar signals intuitively mapping every nuance of our waking environments, no differently than our human eyes map color. Or maybe it's just gonna be me, doing it by myself, because I'm a lunatic.

::shrugs::

cool shit to think about, anyway.

 

[Dorkeone]

cool shit to think about, anyway.

yeah man i love this stuff.

so whether we've pin pointed it or not, it seems that some form or relation to ESP does exist. i think to practice it would be remarkable.

 

[Dorkeone]

Is this not what happens when we speak?

I appreciate your concerns about language, and the part that culture through language & etc. can distance us from a more holistic way of experiencing and communicating, but maybe that is a particular problem of a particular language. English is a very scientific-rational language. Kurdish is much richer in emotional characteristics, and I'm sure other languages have spiritual aspects that spiritually-inclined speakers find quite adequate for their understanding of ways of being connected to the earth and others.

Maybe a lot of the problem is the language you use, not language in itself. Words and sentences are our thoughts being materialised. Stories, songs and poetry can reach deeper into our soul than other configurations of our own language, and for some people do seem to trigger off responses that could be perceived as being representative of the group mind.

Also, this is very interesting to me. it shined new light on the aspect of spiritual language. ive recently read quite a bit, out of interest, about how psychedelics may have helped in the creation of language, and it may be that the large jump in intelligence, the "missing link" in the history of the evolution of mankind, was due to the primates discovery of the psychedelic plant life. this is a long shot, and only a small theory, but very interesting, and at first glances makes alot of since.

 

[swilow]

^Sounds McKenna-ish.... Gotta ask how ingesting drugs causes neurological and genetic changes that are useful and passed down throuugh the language of DNA? That doesn't sound possible.

The biggest pitfall of langage is our vocal cords. They can only produce five vowels, and a few plosive sounds- the consonants are just shaped vowels. (I'm ripping off Eckhart Tolle here) Kinda hard to express the mystery of life with such a limited range of sounds.

Though I'm sure many of us have experienced the psychedelic glossalalia at some point; it happens to me on most psychedelics at high doses- an urge to verbalise "something", usualy by making more resonant tones with my mouth as opposed to throat (like a didjeridoo, but totally different!)...my ketamine language is similar- lots of "Thoths" and "Ga-Ahhl-Mah-Thon-Gorths", and it feels so right to verbalise that way.

 

[Obyron]

The biggest pitfall of langage is our vocal cords. They can only produce five vowels, and a few plosive sounds- the consonants are just shaped vowels. (I'm ripping off Eckhart Tolle here) Kinda hard to express the mystery of life with such a limited range of sounds.

There are like 25 different vowel sounds. English happens to give five of them their own letters, but other languages do it differently. Even in English you use these other vowel sounds all the time, and yet don't really realize you're doing it.

Language is far from limited. We can use it to communicate and define the entirety of existence. It lets us voice the deepest of emotions, and inspire ourselves and others to greater things. To me, language (and by extension, hearing) is one of the greatest gifts we have.

What's better, the question of language complexity is really a question of information density. We could express all of the above just as well if our vocal chords could only make two sounds-- consider binary. The messages would just be longer. The English language is basically a base-26 numerical system which we have trained ourselves to interpret without tripping over the message. (ie: We hear "window" and conceive of an opening covered by glass, but we don't have to think about the construction of the word to conjure up the meaning)

Sorry for the minor threadjack, but I love languages, and I'd definitely have to disagree that the human vocal chords are limited!

 

[swilow]

^Yes, but what sounds aren't made from the root vowel sound? I am referring to what is produced by the vocal cords....many languages have guttural or clicking sort of tones, but they are manipulations of high frequency air-expulsion or using air to vibrate aspects of the chest/mouth/head and produce a tone.

Its a fact- the vocal cords cannot produce any sounds except for the sounds we know. At the root of most languages are the same 5 sounds.

The comparision with binary code doesn't work, because 1's and 0's can be taken to represent ANYTHING- whereas the vowel sound E can only be/sound like E. Your stuck with that particular tone, though you can add a lot of permetuations onto it. If I were to arrangfe a series of binary bits, I could construct a vowel of my own, and go from there. Binary allows one to code for anything basically, whereas our vocal cords are restricted by both the narrow frequncy range we can hear and talk in, plus the limitations of the vocal cords.

Yar, o/t maybe? Still very interesting, Obyron, I'd be keen to hear your replies. I'm more 'postulating' here then affirming a fact.

 

[Obyron]

Threadsplit time! Hee.

It's hard to argue that the human vocal chords can only produce one sound when you consider things like inflections, and the ability to sing in multiple octaves, etc. You can modulate your tone and all sorts of things. I see the point you're making, but I think it's rather more impressive than you're making it out to be!

My point in regard to binary wasn't so much about the sounds themselves, but how we use them to convey information. That's why I went into all the shit about how English is basically a base-26 number system, compared to binary's base-2. For another example you could consider Morse code a base-3 system (dit, dah, and silence). All of these things can convey the same information, but with varying degrees of density.

I guess we may even be talking about two different things, because I'm so in love with languages, and I'm more focused on linguistic expression than actual vocal pitch. A check of wikipedia reveals that there are 26 vowel sounds, where "vowel sound" means a sound that is made with the airway open, using only varying position in parts of the mouth to shape the sound, but without impeding it. A "consonant sound" is when you start cutting off the air flow in different ways, like fricatives (sounds like "ffffff" made by pushing air through your nearly closed lips), plosives (sounds like "t" or "p", or nasal sounds like "mmmmm"), etc.

Then consider that the 26 main vowel sounds are monophthongs. When you start getting into dipthongs (start on one vowel sound, but end on another) it adds even more complexity...

The sheer amount of things the human voice is capable of is really "intellectual hard-on" material! You're willing to concede that binary digits can represent anything, but fail to see how amazing the articulation of the human voice is in its ability to represent damn near anything as well!

To give the conversation some focus, and maybe prevent me from arguing something entirely different from what you're even saying, what is it that you wish the human voice could do that you don't see it as being able to do?

 

[Dorkeone]

i'm very interested in language and many things related, especially when the sources of information are people with an obvious same interest as me. (hence, title of forum)

pleeease continue. possibly keep it in the same thread so i feel i have a hint of importance in it! haha.

 

[swilow]

The sheer amount of things the human voice is capable of is really "intellectual hard-on" material! You're willing to concede that binary digits can represent anything, but fail to see how amazing the articulation of the human voice is in its ability to represent damn near anything as well!

To give the conversation some focus, and maybe prevent me from arguing something entirely different from what you're even saying, what is it that you wish the human voice could do that you don't see it as being able to do?

Eeek, it appears I've taken on a linguist! I will say my argument is largely based on something I read but also the absolute shortcomings I've experienced in expressing- what I can't express.

In a sense our language is limited by how we can speak~ clearly not as limited as I'm saying....but surely you can see, for example, how the word and sound "red" don't actually describe anything about the colour itself....thats a poor example, as I am stuck in the exact problem I'm trying to express. I dunno, I think language seems to force us into thinking in certain ways, simply because we are stuck, by and large, with words and what they mean.

Aggh, I'm sorry, the brain isn't working very well I will try to explain myself a bit better later....

 

[cognosis]

If one is able to witness the cell communication and DNA clockwork while in altered states, then what is to stop one from experiencing thought waves (possibly more) emitted from another brain's neurological web while in altered states?

Questions, comments, critiques all welcome and encouraged.
Dorke

Have you come across anything about Slow Cortical Potentials and|or Brain-Computer Interfacing yet?
'.

 

[Dorkeone]

Have you come across anything about Slow Cortical Potentials and|or Brain-Computer Interfacing yet?
'.

this was my first time, in reading those two articles. interesting stuff. Ive been looking into technology, and the future alot lately. we are going to see some insane things in our lifetime, assuming most of us are under the age of 40 or so. theres no doubt about that.
something to think about, is that mechanical life is no different than organic life, except for that it requires organic life to run in the first place. theres no doubt that bridge will be crossed in the near future. we will be waking up machines largely, in no time. it seems our consciousness would continue to flow through a mechanical earth. and due to the technological aspect of it, and interconnectivity that is already being brought upon us (for instance i'm talking to you, someone possibly across the country or world), perhaps all our thoughts will flow together. perhaps thats what life is all about? we look at planets for life, and wonder why life doesn't exist on these planets, when it does. perhaps each planet has obtained what was meant to be obtained, and earth was created sporadically. Technology may be our next generation of life, and would be one way to connect all life in our planet into the one consciousness that it is.