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Methoxetamine might NOT cause the same bladder toxicity as Ketamine does in heavy use

?

pofacedhoe said:
there was a guy on bluelight who got kidney disease from heavy methoxetamine use. cant find the thread now but he had it diagnosed in hospital

so look after your kidneys
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What was his intake? Did he regularly stay hydrated?
 
I remember him, is it the user 'eyeswideopen'? It sounded like he wasn't taking care of himself and was co-abusing it with stimulants like MDPV and other drugs if we are talking about the same guy. I have consumed possibly over 100 grams now, and as recently as 3 months ago had a full work-up of my body functions including kidneys. I have osteoporosis at age 32 so they were trying to find out if something was causing it, or if it was the result of taking the steroid prednisone for many years as an adolescent- the conclusion was the prednisone as the culprit since everything checked out normal.
Certainly something to note though is that I do drink a lot of water, a gallon on most days.
 
jason7 said:
MXE did cause bladder and renal damage in mice but they were given the equivalent of a human taking more than 2 grams a day for three months.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24580056
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I was just going to link that paper! If we apply scaling it wouldn't be quite 2 grams a day, but more 150-200mg depending on your body weight. The doses are still on the high side, does show that MXE CAN be toxic to your bladder and kidneys, likely less so than ket.
 
St3ve what kind of math are you using to arrive at the 150-200mg number? Unless there is something I'm missing, you are an order of magnitude off.
 
Unless I'm mistaken rats have a faster metabolism so proportionate to body weight they can handle 10 times as much as us humans in some estimations, highly depending on a number of variables. We see the same with say MDMA, a factor 10 difference i.e. interspecies scaling. That is where that order of magnitude came from. afaik, imhe

Use with moderation, I don't think anyone should take anything away from promises that MXE isn't as harmful.
 
The weird thing is that there are no reports of bladder or kidney problems from MXE yet, and lots of people have used it heavily. It's easy to find reports of that from ketamine.
 
Vortech, I used the conversion factors from this paper (http://www.fasebj.org/content/22/3/659.long). So 30mg/kg * 3 = 90 for mice. That divided by 37 for humans gives you 2.43mg/kg for humans. For a 75kg man that's 182mg dose! These conversion factors are only rough guidelines as this scaling is just based on surface area to body volume ratios and doesn't take metabolic and physiological differences into account...
 
Oh wow, thank you for the clarification about the 10x metabolic rate factor. We were misinformed discussing it on the big and dandy thread, thinking they were getting the equivalent of 2 grams a day.

So then that is actually in the range of what a few of us have used. Of course with the IV route material is conserved, so for instance if I were to do 200mg orally in a day, I would only use 100mg IV, which is what I averaged over my last 12-day binge.

Lastly, there is the factor we have been discovering that all MXE is not created equal, however it may be (purity, polymorphs, additives). I have experienced a significant spread in perceived toxicity between different batches. I found two forms that feel pleasantly benign compared to the 3 or 4 other variations tested which have either slightly more or significantly more perceived body load.
 
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vortech said:
I have experienced a significant spread in perceived toxicity between different batches. I found two forms that feel pleasantly benign compared to the 3 or 4 other variations tested which have either slightly more or significantly more perceived body load.
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Are you fairly certain you can't put these apparent differences down to other factors like sleep, general food/drink intake prior to taking it, etc? I still can't get my head around the idea that a commercial chemical lab would be pumping out "impure" stuff so sporadically you can notice variations in effects between batches.
 
They were all from different sources so likely all different labs using different synthesis processes/techniques. I'm not talking about variations in batches from the same source, I never noticed any differences there.
And yeah I'm doing my best to separate my experiences from other life factors. I'm talking about consistent differences between sources such as the smell of the experience. Maybe I'm weird but each variant has a unique smell to me, like as it is coming on and as it is excreted out my body.
 
Nah that makes a lot more sense now that I see you're talking discrepancy between sources rather than batches from the one source :) I don't doubt you can tell there's differences, and I get where you're coming from regarding smell hahahaha

It's an interesting thought though...something I won't necessarily experience myself, as I only have knowledge/access to one online vendor for such things - that is if my order ever even arrives...
 
Maybe it was because of a dream, but this morning I woke up thinking about those poor mice in the MXE study. There is one more thing I want to clear up. The mice were given MXE every day for 90 days. If we are converting that into human time equivelant, wouldn't that be a LONG TIME? Like if calculating by life span, mice only live a few years right? So for instance if humans live 20 times longer, that would be equal to doing MXE every day for 5 years. I don't know though what the actual conversion is.
 
A technique called allometric scaling is used to compare doses in differently sized animals. This is not widely known in our community so I encourage you to share it wherever possible, because it can lead to a false sense of security among users.

There is a good article here and a calculator here.
 
Transform said:
A technique called allometric scaling is used to compare doses in differently sized animals. This is not widely known in our community so I encourage you to share it wherever possible, because it can lead to a false sense of security among users.

There is a good article here and a calculator here.
Click to expand...

Sorry Transform, just wanted to clear up the bolded bit. I'm not sure if you've worded that correctly (could just be that I'm a potato though), as it seems to suggest that he should be sharing this information will result in people thinking a drug is SAFER than it actually is. Or did you mean that when a user is unaware of this scaling, this ignorance results in the false sense of security?


hahaha sorry to nit pick :p
 
I think he meant that people might use the rationale described by vortech (or similar arguments) to dismiss any concerns about organ damage. It's true that you can't perfectly extrapolate results from animal studies to humans which means users who are ignorant about the various scaling techniques might wrongly assume that dangers applicable to mice aren't an issue in humans. At any rate the dosing regime in this paper is high but many people seem to have kept up that kind of use for extended periods of time so it's not out of the realm of being relevant.
 
Sorry, to clarify, I meant that users who are unaware of allometric scaling see that a rat is given 1mg/kg and think "Blimey, that's 140mg in a 70kg human, I only take half that, I'll be fine", when in fact it's 40 mg.
 
Maybe not, but it does cause reinal failure, in high doses...
 
One thing I will conclude based on current data is that if you do suffer significant organ damage from MXE abuse, you are clearly doing it wrong. MXE has blessed us with a large therapeutic window not seen in other drug of this class. The proper terminology, 'therapeutic index', is what we are trying to define in this thread. It is my view, based on my personal experience coupled with all external data, that MXE used in a way that both respects the power of the drug and achieves the maximum therapeutic and/or recreational potential requires dosage levels and durations in a range that reside well within this window of safe use as long as the user is grounded and of good mental/physical/spiritual health. Users of sub-optimal health attempting to remedy their health with the help of this drug will need to be much more careful, titrating up, dosing infrequently and ideally used with a grounded guide/therapist/shaman/buddy.

To respect the power of it is to appreciate a few things, but most importantly it is to allow adequate periods of rest and reset between trips/doses. This lets the body remain connected to base homeostasis while letting the experience soak in. From my experience, after a few concurrent days of doses, the potential for harmful disconnection grows while the potential for beneficial connections decreases.

MXE can be a great teacher of ancient wisdom and inner truth, but it takes time to let the ripples permeate one's consciousness. With sufficient 'off' periods, one can not only avoid tolerance and maintain appreciation but effectively decode and integrate the wisdom herein.

I'm not saying my past use has been within this therapeutic window. I certainly pushed past the limit of therapeutic and recreational benefit. I was stupid thinking i could maintain that quality of energy I enjoy so much. Luckily, the drug is forgiving enough to let me be here now and pass this information on so that future explorers do not have to test the limits of this window.
 
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