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[MEGA]Synthetic Cannabinoid Discussion- 2nd Toke

A question

I was reading some of the posts here on the Cannabis forum and I keep seeing posts about K2 Summit. What exactly is K2 Summit? I have never heard of it. Is it like salvia? I did a search on it and it just came up as "incense". I live in California and was just wondering if it I haven't heard about it because I live in America or because maybe I'm just behind on the times lol. I do smoke marijuana on a daily basis, and is it anything like weed? I saw a picture of it and it kinda looks like weed. I apologize if this post is categorized wrong. Thank you for your answers! Have a great weekend and happy holidays!=D
 
To all the JWH smokers: do you ever get as high as you used to on regular weed, or is your tolerance now permanent? AFAIK cannabis tolerance drops, since I used to vaporize 7-10 hash oil hits on a titanium pad, each hit of which is as powerful as a dank blunt. After a two month break, weed got me sooo stoned. Weed used to not phase me when I was strung out on vaped hash oil.
 
I took a couple hits of pot recently after a long abstainance. I felt super paranoid and very anxiety ridden. To me, anxiety is absolutely the worst feeling you can experience. I discovered that this is not the same reefer I enjoyed in the 70's.And I am now in my mid-fifties.My brain just isn't as sharp and healthy as it used to be.The marijuana out there is just too fucking strong for me. Anyway,I stopped smoking it altogether. I discovered that opiates are better euphoria producing drugs for me and they definitely help both my anxiety and depression. I keep them in control by strictly limiting their use to one day per week.
 
I took a couple hits of pot recently after a long abstainance. I felt super paranoid and very anxiety ridden. To me, anxiety is absolutely the worst feeling you can experience. I discovered that this is not the same reefer I enjoyed in the 70's.And I am now in my mid-fifties.My brain just isn't as sharp and healthy as it used to be.The marijuana out there is just too fucking strong for me. Anyway,I stopped smoking it altogether. I discovered that opiates are better euphoria producing drugs for me and they definitely help both my anxiety and depression. I keep them in control by strictly limiting their use to one day per week.

First thing mate you cant keep opiates in control. The reason I use the word cant instead of probably cant is that 10 out of 10 addicts all started out with your words on their lips. "Im a weekend warrior" ----> "Im a weekend warrior but I indulge on special occassions too!" ----> "hmmm its wednesday that's reason enough for celebration" ----> "Oh fuck sake I feel like shit what I wouldnt do for some oxy"... that's pretty much standard. Opiates pharmacologically dont really lend themselves to ocassional use. Dopamine elevation and Mu receptor activation literally encourage addiction - dont become another poster on the dark side who posts the tale of how he began opiates for fun and ended up lying in the gutter with an arm full of holes.

If however you know better then ask around. I guarantee that 100 out of 100 people will tell you to quite now while you can. I wish that someone showed me exactly where I would end up after 5 years of opiate addiction. I was exactly like you, using very ocassionaly. I wasnt even trying to escape depression - it was purely recreational. However addiction crept up on me. Somehow drugs of abuse like benzos and opiates have the ability to convince you that you have no problem. They may in fact suppress the centers in the brain that regulate self control etc

Weed for me is a beautiful drug when I have a level head. However I find weed to be merciless when it comes to removing all the defense mechanisms ive built up. Example. If im worrying about something even slightly and I smoke a Joint that thing will be amplified magnified and played out in my head leading to hyper-anxiety andcrushing depression. If im in a good mood weed can be the perfect way to unwind. I keep it to 1 joint a day and try to avoid cheese. I prefer mid range indicas - northern lights being my all time favourite.
 
Anyone know what synthetic cannabinoids have a short duration smoked (starts to come down after 30 min, completely gone after 60) and are also subjectively more intense than marijuana? I am trying to figure out what is in some blend I have smoked. At higher doses it causes a noticeable increase in heart rate and anxiety, if that helps.
 
Yeah man tolerance seems to level out after the first 12 hours heavy smoking at around 20-30 minutes pleasing hit from a bong or so (Im a smoker of strong homemade blends). Currently the gear has been refined down to something very comparable to Spice Gold product in Britain and Ireland a couple years back. There's defo more than one chem in there tho.
 
People paying tenner a g local for that synth mix. Being made by the kilo local so unbranded.
 
AM-2201 Addiction and Withdrawal

Right guys, I've got myself dependant on AM-2201. Say what you like but there are definitely a myriad of strong, unpleasant, mental and physical withdrawal symptoms.

Been smoking it pretty much daily for 6 months. Haven't really had any problems atall and was using 50-75mg a day up until recently. My usage started to massively escalate about 2 weeks ago when I bought a TINY pipe that I started to take everywhere with me. I also started to just scoop powder from the big bag into the wrap I used for dosing from, rather than measure. Tried to cut back to 50mg/day. 50mg was now 3 doses. 8o

This was when I realised I needed to dose to just to stay feeling normal. Been massively tapering since then. The main problem comes when I under dose or don't dose. Also, I only have 250mg left.

Whenever I hadn't had any for more than an hour, start to cold sweat, an "internal vibration" energy starts. It basically feels like a nervous rattle under my ripcage, that seems to be a reflection bounced back of of my heartbeat. Im suffering from gait and balance changes, really have to think to walk, feels quite akward and I'm a bit self concious about it. Occasional vision blurs round the edges with sudden bursts of derealisiation/depersonalised and ketamised feelings (feels like ive sniffed 30mg of ketamine). Have a very short temper which is completely unheard of for me with pissy mood swings which is something I've never experienced before.

I've started to force myself to stop smoking it cause I'm slightly concerned for my mental wellbeing.

15mg valium and a litre of cider hasn't affected the insomnia when I've tried it, been making do with less than 4 hours of shitty sleep for the last few nights. This means I wake up every 2 hours in the night in a puddle of cold sweat after struggling to fall asleep every time. Although it seems better than before: waking up literally every 70 mins on the dot, for another hit to fall asleep again.

I've been having 4-5 doses a day just so I'm able to eat without gagging, but if the dose is too small it worsens the symptoms and makes me mildly physically shakey. 5-10mg

Weed makes me really physically skakey too now, but to a massive degree, like 1cm movements.

Ive really fucked up this time. Anyone else experienced the same? Seen loads of people similar on DF but not here.
 
Been reading up more into other people's experiences withdrawing and found this that explains the mechanisms behind the withdrawals. Also the potential side effects match up very closely with what I'm experiencing. Bit long but here goes.

I think I may have some answers to this issue. I have a very strong working knowledge of Addiction and Neurochemistry. I am a former Heroin and JWH addict, I have been clean for a total of 6 month, yes, in a row. However, my work with Addiction Research totals about 3 years, 1.5 years prior to any Personal Addiction History.

First, I would like to introduce some basic principals of addiction; we will focus on the purely Neurochemical and Neurobiological responses to an Active Addiction at this point, subjective effects will be discussed at a later time.

Let's begin with the way that we learn to love drugs and their effects: One word, Dopamine. Almost every Drug of Abuse(DOA) causes an increase amount of Dopamine in the Mesolimbic Dopanergic Pathway(MDP) of the brain, that shapes our behavior and system of "needs", I put this in quotes for later.*

Basic Human needs for survival are Food, Water, and Sex. Yes,the first two make perfect sense. We must have Water to stay hydrated and we must have Food to stay Metabolically active, that is, alive. But wait...we don't need Sex to survive in life. To procreate yes, but, to continue to be Metabolically active on an internal level, no.*
Sex is needed to survive as a Species, so the Brain needed to find a way to "get it's point acros". It made Sex FEEL good. How you ask...by timing a surge of Dopamine in the MDP to occur at the precise time we preform the action necessary for species survival, that is obviously Ejaculation.*

Because of that release the Brain has effectively trained itself to understand Sex as important as Food and Water. Sex is however, much more rewarding, due to the fact that a much larger amount of Dopamine is released in the MDP upon Orgasm than with any other action we were intended to preform.

As said earlier most Drugs cause a larger amount of Dopamine to be available for use in than MDP, even more than sex. This is the physiological basis of Drug "need", also known as cravings.

When we first experience *a substance and experience it's subjective effects, we consciously "enjoy" it. At the same time, unknown to our Conscious Mind, the brain is in the process of learning an additional "need". This can be learned in as little as one exposure to a substance. As we continue to use, the reward for the use becomes more deeply engrained.*

*Note:*It is VERY important to understand the effect of GABA on Dopamine. GABA is an inhibitory Neurotransmitter and Dopamine is an excitatory Neurotransmitter.*
The body is designed to live in harmony and balance, this is called Homeostasis.*
Due to Homeostasis, when Dopamine is released in the MDP, the Body recognizes the in-natural imbalance and has provided GABA to inhibit Dopamine's effects and return the Body to Homeostasis.*

Also important to mention, the more Dopamine available in the MDP with administration, the more rewarding and therefore the more addictive a substance is.

That being said drug use does not only cause changes in Dopamine levels to be altered, many other Neurotransmitters are effected as well. Because this is a Cannabinoid thread, I will only discuss those specific to these substances. For comparison, reasons I will explain the effect Natural Cannabis has on Brain Chemistry, because it has been extensively studied.*

Serotonin, Marijuana has been shown to be a potent Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor(SSRI). Serotonin plays a major role in Themoregulation, mood, sleep and level of subjective energy and motivation.*

GABA, is an inhibitor neurotransmitter that plays a major role in "keeping the Brain in check". That is, if the Brain's Neurons are firing to fast, more GABA is released to slow their action and therefore restore Homeostasis. GABA also plays a role in digestion, and the function of muscle tissue (by keeping their contractions correctly timed and intentional). Marijuana is know to cause *a decease in GABA levels. This is why inexperienced users are more prone to Marijuana induced anxiety.*

In an effort to return to Homeostasis the Body has once again created a clever way to do this. It has the ability to adjust the amount of Receptor Sites(the place where Neurotransmitters are received and exhibit their action) in response to varying levels of specific Neurotransmitters. For example, if your body needs to utilize more Serotonin,*your Brain will increase the number of Receptor Sites that are available to receive Serotonin. If your Brain detects too much Serotonin, then your Brain will decrease the amount of receptor sites available for binding. This is known as Down-Regulation and Up-Regulation, respectively. This processes is slow and occurs over repeated abnormalities in Neurotransmitter levels.

This is not the only thing that Cannabis acts on. It has it's own receptor sites; CB1(Based solely in the Brain) and CB2(Based through the rest of the Body, in Bones, the Digestive Tract, Muscles, so on so forth.) these Receptors can also be Up-regulated due to a lack of natural Endocannabinoids(occurring inside the body) or down-regulated due to chronic Cannabis use. *CB receptors are responsible in part for memory, emotions, appetite, digestion, anger control, and the subjective psychoactive effects of Marijuana.

Natural cannabis is a partial agonist(it activates and therefore enhances the action of at about 50% of their potential action)CB1 and CB2 receptor sites as evidenced by increased hunger, loss of short term memory, mild euphoria and other subjective effects. Also, Serotonin is prevented from being eliminated due to the action of THC as an SSRI. This can cause a decrease in body temperature, more energy and even increase motivation and mood.*

The production of GABA is decreased during use, leading to possible anxiety, increased heart rate and dilated pupils. Pupil dilation is caused by a decreased level of GABA in the optically located GABA-a receptors that allow for proper contraction of the Iris.*

It is important to understand that Marijuana does NOT cause Dopamine to be released in the MDP. But. because of the decrease in GABA levels there IS effectively an increase of the levels of Dopamine in the MDP because it's action is no longer properly controlled.*This explains why there is not a well recognized Subjective Physical Withdraw Syndrome upon Cannabis discontinuation.*

There is*Down-regulation of CB1, CB2, *and Serotonin Receptors, due to the increased action of these sites upon repeated dosing, this is the cause of tolerance to MJ.*

However, because THC is a Partial Agonist of CB receptors and only partially inhibits the reuptake of Serotonin there will never be a point where effects are limited by the number of available receptor sites.

When the amount of receptors is decreased because the Body is expecting that "this will be enough receptor sites" due to external administration of chemicals that sufficiently act on them, then is not provided the external stimulus; there are not enough receptors left to elicit the action they should. Down-regulation can be though of as an effective reduction in sensitivity to a certain Neurotransmitter or substance that binds to it's Receptor.*

On to Synthetic Cannabinoids; finally, I know. But, it is essential to understand the concepts listed above to understand the unique disturbances these compounds cause overtime.*

Synthetic Cannabinoids(at least ones used recreationally) are FULL agonists of the CB1 and CB2 receptors, this means that they cause the Receptors to be active at 100%.

Here in lies the first issue with repeated use of Synthetics; because of their full agonist qualities CB, and Serotonin Receptor Down-regulation will be completed at a much faster and a much increased rate. This is why tolerance to Synthetics *builds so quickly and unlike MJ given time, will become almost complete.

Also, given the increased potency of these compounds in comparison to THC there is an exponential decrease in the amount of GABA available for use in the Body and MDP. This explains the incredible ability for Synthetics to cause incredible anxiety in even very long term Marijuana users.*

This is also the key to these substance's addictive qualities. Even with their increased potency, Synthetic Cannabinoids do not cause an increase production of or decrease in re-uptake of Dopamine in the MDP. However, as explained earlier, GABA is the main Neurotransmitter responsible for keeping Dopamine levels in check. With a marked decrease in GABA levels the amount of Dopamine available for use in the MDP is dramatically larger than with Pot and even Sex.*

Because of this, it is entirely possible for the Brain to learn that this substance will allow it to use more of its available Dopamine because it is not counteracted as it should be. Which will without a doubt cause an addiction similar to other "hard drugs".*

Depending on the amount of Cannabinoids consumed in a dose, it is entirely possible that there is more dopamine available in the MDP than with a standard dose of heroin. Leading the "need" to re-dose immediately and almost instinctually upon cessation of it's effects. This unfortunately proves that this substance has the ability to cause a major physiological addiction, on the level of Crack Cocaine.*

This is due to the level of agonism of these compounds and their ability to affect the MPD in a similar way as other drugs. Yes, the subjective effects may be different from "hard drugs" but, unfortunately the Pharmacology of these substances is effectively(although by a different mode of action) identical.

On to the withdraw: It is real, and here is why. Down-regulation of CB1, CB2, Serotonin Receptors and because of effects on GABA levels an therefore Dopamine receptors as well. This cause upon cessation, the lack of activity at these Receptor Site because of their decreased sensitivity to their activiating partners.*

This causes the exact opposite effects as their agonists. The effects would be;
CB1: increased agitation, apathy, lack of interest, lack motivation, short term memory issues.
CB2: decreased appetite, nausea, slightly increased White Blood Cell count, increased inflammation, increased sensitivity to pain and possible inflammation of the spleen(due to over activity of the Body's Immune System)
Serotonin: insomnia, increased body temperature(which leads to the natural physiological attempt to lower Body temperature, which is sweating and shivering), problems maintaing a constant body temperature(due to Serotonin receptors located in the hypothalamus, the Bodies thermostat), decreased pleasure, lack of motivation, suicidal ideations, violent thoughts, mood swings and depression.
Dopamine: muscle rigidity, muscle spasms, internal unrest, twitching. Drug cravings, obsessions with using, body aches, loss of appetite, nausea and lack of happiness in normally pleasurable activities, Parkinson type symptoms, trouble sleeping.

Due the fact that the levels of available GABA are markedly decreased up-regulation of the GABA-a receptor will occur in an attempt to obtain proper levels of utilized GABA. Because of this, upon return of normal GABA levels, the body will be overwhelmed and experience the opposite effects of a lack of GABA: upset stomach, nausea, diahreahha, increased gastric acid production, muscle twitching, mild trailing visuals, loss of cognition and memory, headaches, and lack of inhibitions(leading to a lower chance to resist relapse).

The most unfortunate event would be a decrease of available Dopamine, due to the fact that the added GABA would inhibit Dopamine from reaching already de-sensitized receptors(this is an added aspect that makes this such an addictive substances).*

It is important to note that while these effects are most prevalent during withdraw, due to Synthetics full agonism and ability to produce almost 90% tolerance over a period of time; these symptoms may be noticeable and potentially disturbing while chronic use is being continued.

Read more: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=168986&page=4#ixzz1hgQ72600
 
Wish I could help you dude, seems like you've smoked yourself into a pretty shitty place. Just scares me away from these chems even more seeing as i'm already an every day toker.

Seeing as I can't help, be glad you've scared me from doing this stuff. :) Keep us updated man
 
this fits well into the mega, i saw this discussed recently, you may find more info there.
 
I hear you, I smoked this stuff for 3 - 4 weeks straight(a few months back now), all day every day (I had the blends though not the pure chemical), I would roll one up every hour or so and smoke it, in a pipe, what ever as long as it got me high. I needed it every day to feel normal but then I ran out. I've stopped using synth cannabinoids now, they are great but man they fuck you over. I am sorry to hear you got addicted and it sounds nasty, never though they were capable of the extremeties you said. Just taper down and have some support there for you mate
 
There's no need to be a dick.

Re-think what you're asking, here. Trying to figure out the specific Cannabinoid in "X" blend is futile. I especially like how you threw in that it causes increased heart rate and anxiety, when I'm pretty sure that even good ol' THC does that. Don't fancy the idea of not knowing what's in the blend you're smoking? Buy the pure RC.
 
weed anxiety

Hey BL. This thread is about marijuana but I posted it on OD because I think the use of other drugs is what changed the effects of weed for me.

I first started smoking weed 5 years ago in high school. It became an everyday habit and I always had a good time blazing. I pretty much never got anxious or paranoid unless there was a reasonable cause. Back then I'd just take huge bong rips over and over again; I was a major pothead and wanted to blaze all the time. At the time, I didn't use any other drugs but I eventually started taking benzos, opiates, amphetamines and psychedelics and started smoking less weed.

Now I can't enjoy weed at all. I always get anxious or have an anxiety attack. I get really self conscious and insecure, even when I'm smoking alone. I either need opiates or benzos to enjoy the effects of weed. At one point I became very dependent on benzos, opiates, and amphetamines at different times of my life and maybe that changed my brain chemistry to be more anxious. I'm not too sure what caused this, but I think it was my dependence on amphetamines that changed the effects of weed for me.

I know a lot of you guys had this problem too; once enjoyed smoking weed, then can't stand it. What do you think is the cause for this? Is it my tolerance? I'm thinking about getting medicated so I can smoke everyday and see if I can enjoy it again. I'm not at the happiest point in my life but I can handle psychedelics just fine. Maybe if things started getting better in my personal life, the effects of weed will too? Or did I kinda screw up my brain because of all the other drugs and I can't ever enjoy marijuana again?

Have any of you been in my situation and are able to enjoy weed again?

Thanks guys.
 
Re-think what you're asking, here. Trying to figure out the specific Cannabinoid in "X" blend is futile. I especially like how you threw in that it causes increased heart rate and anxiety, when I'm pretty sure that even good ol' THC does that. Don't fancy the idea of not knowing what's in the blend you're smoking? Buy the pure RC.

I have reasons for not wanting to do that, they are my own and I will not be sharing them. Your response was not helpful at all, and I know for a fact that not all synthetic cannabinoids are as short acting as whatever I was smoking. Yet you chose to focus on the part of my post that would make you feel better about yourself by being an asshole on the internet. Good day, sir.
 
I have reasons for not wanting to do that, they are my own and I will not be sharing them. Your response was not helpful at all, and I know for a fact that not all synthetic cannabinoids are as short acting as whatever I was smoking. Yet you chose to focus on the part of my post that would make you feel better about yourself by being an asshole on the internet. Good day, sir.

Well if you know these facts then why can't you guess on your own? There are specific rules about asking "what do you think I took" questions... they aren't allowed because all it is, is people guessing...

If you really want to know what's in your smoking blend your going to have to send a sample in to a testing lab like ecstasydata for gcms testing...
 
I have reasons for not wanting to do that, they are my own and I will not be sharing them. Your response was not helpful at all, and I know for a fact that not all synthetic cannabinoids are as short acting as whatever I was smoking. Yet you chose to focus on the part of my post that would make you feel better about yourself by being an asshole on the internet. Good day, sir.

Well, lets look at the first basic rule of all psychoactives: They all effect everyone differently. Taking this into account, it would be downright impossible for someone to guess what you smoked. Asking these types of questions is stupid and simply clutters the thread up. We don't know what you smoked, nor do we care. If the effects are subjectively more intense than marijuana for you, that doesn't mean they will be more intense for someone who idiotically chooses to answer the question. Stop being butthurt. I threw no personal attacks at you, I told you the exact truth. There is no way on this planet to figure out what is in the blend you're smoking unless it goes through a full scientific analysis. Grow a thicker skin, insert your tampon, and continue not knowing what RC is in the blend you're smoking by buying these crappy blends.

Good day, sir.
 
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