Medical Marijuana for Pets

[bennyZA]

So I think this is pretty good evidence for medical marijuana, but I'd like to hear if anyone thinks what I'm about to say is fucked up (I like hearing opposing views, even though I think you will probably be the minority)

I have a friend who's cat is really fucking old. He's 23. I never knew he was that old cause my friend still fucks with him like a kitten. I finally found out and everything made sense, because recently he's in real pain. He meows constantly to get pet, but you can tell he's in pain. You just can. He doesn't like doing anything but being pet. He can't struggle if you pick him up, he can't even jump up onto a sofa. When I tried to see how strong he still was, I held him over a pool. 99% of cats would have scratched the shit out of me, but he didn't even squirm a little bit. He's a chill cat that used to be so active too.

For years he would chill with us when we smoked but he would leave if any smoke got in his face. What blows me away is that just 2 days ago he started getting really into weed. The first time we smoked the other day he came rushing to us and begged us until we realized he really wanted to get high. I put a joint under his nose so he could get some unsmoked hits, and he immediatley started acting like he used to. His meows of pain immediatley stopped, and he started to purr within 5 minutes. He was so happy. All day and night it was like this. He didn't leave our side all night. Every time we smoked he would beg and plead until we blew a bunch of smoke in his face and he would try and breath in as much as possible. It was truly amazing. considering he never liked weed, my first assumption is that this makes his pain go away like it does mine.

This is an organism that knows nothing about weed culture or weed criminalization. He didn't like getting high, but as soon as he started being in real pain he's been all about it...

So to me this is an amazing example of medical marijuana. However, what I want to ask you guys is getting him stoned inherently wrong? Most people say that getting pets stoned is wrong because no matter if you think they like it, you can never truly know what they are feeling... So if anyone thinks I should stop, I'd like to hear why.

 

[Jibult]

I think forcing a pet to get high is inherently wrong. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

The distinction between my position mentioned above and what you did, is that you allowed the cat to control everything about that situation. You and your friend(s) were smoking and the cat was around. The cat noticed and came closer, working to get both of your attention. Thinking you understood, you put the burning joint where the cat could access it but wasn't forced to inhale anything. The cat tested the waters of it's own accord and, regardless of what actually happened in the cat's body, you and your friend perceived the cat to seem youthful, healthy, exuberant again. Essentially, you realized that your cat had just medicated itself.


I've never taken issue with people whose animals are always around a session. My issue is when I see a jackass grab a dog by the snout and blow it a massive shotgun that I doubt most people would be unable to handle. That situation makes me see red every time.



[EDIT: For an animal so old, I would suggest microdosing edibles for him or her if your friend continues to allow the cat to partake (my cat fucking loves butter, so I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to get them to lick up a little cannabutter.) I have no reasoning to back it up other than pointing out the harmful effects of smoking anything, and that edibles just seem like a better idea for any elderly patient regardless of species.]

 

[Black Rabbit of Inle]

1) The smoke from joints/bongs can be severely damaging to a pets delicate nose. I'd suggest either edibles or tincture that is not orally active (the idea is to medicate your pet, not get them high)

2) Just because a pet endures something, does not mean they like it. Living with a stoner, anyone gets used to the idea there's going to be lots of smoke around.

Stick with non-orally active tinctures for pain relief and catnip to get it high.

 

[bennyZA]

I think he would like the immediate relief of smoked weed. It's difficult to gauge doses for an animal so freaking small. He's all skin and bones too. I would hate to get him too high. He might shy away after that, which in mind would be really shitty. His owner gets stoned all the freaking time, so he probably has access to weed on demand, essentially.

I remember in college, one of the people I knew decided to feed his baby ferret olive oil in his food, slowly raising the amount. That way he knew if he put olive oil the animal would eventually have no problem eating it, he wanted to really make sure it was high. Then, once the ferret was mature, he put weed oil in his bowl. He only put a tiny amount, but he didn't realize a tiny amount is still a shit ton for a 5 pound ferret. I think he fed it .1 when in reality he should have probably fed it .01 if not less. The ferret was so fucking fucked up. Unreal. It was freaking out and everyone thought it was funny. After that the ferret would have panic attacks every time this dude smoked, so he got rid of the ferret. Till this day he thinks it was hilarious. He thought he was doing it a favor or something.

I especially can't stand when people try and get their dogs high. Dogs do not like weed. I've met other cats who liked weed - they do instinctive like catnip so they might be wired like us to enjoy intoxication - but not nearly as much as my buddy's cat. It really is beautiful to see him happy again. I have absolutley no qualms about helping the cat out, but like I said, I want to hear some opinions that might be against my own, though I can't really imagine a single good argument against it. Especially since he never liked getting high before, and he isn't exactly young. Shit, the cat is almost my age. He saw the birth of the WWW for fucks sake.

1) The smoke from joints/bongs can be severely damaging to a pets delicate nose. I'd suggest either edibles or tincture that is not orally active (the idea is to medicate your pet, not get them high)

2) Just because a pet endures something, does not mean they like it. Living with a stoner, anyone gets used to the idea there's going to be lots of smoke around.

Stick with non-orally active tinctures for pain relief and catnip to get it high.

1.) Honestly, I don't really think hurting his nose is an issue. He is 23 and he has the right to make his own decisions, especially since he can't go out anymore and really doesn't use his nose for much, except when he smelled that we were smoking. He's not going to be around much longer either, so I think damaging smoke isn't really an issue. He absolutely loved it when I put the joint under his nose so he could breathe in as much as he felt. When I took away the joint to get high myself, he gave me a little "wtf, give that back" meow.

2.) He wasn't enduring it, he was actively trying to get some. Until right before the sudden downturn, he would tolerate it, or go away if any smoke got near him. Even if it is getting him high, it doesn't seem to be an issue. If I gave him edibles it would be extremely hard to dose out so little. Even if it's not helping medically but now all of a sudden he likes getting high, is it my right to take it away from him? He's an organism like me, capable of making his own decisions, especially at his age.

 

[Morphling]

Cats should not be given weed, I'm sorry, their cannabinoid system is much different than ours, is not good for them, at all.

 

[bennyZA]

Morphling could you elaborate about not being good in what way? Overall health? cause at this point we're talking about pallative care. He's going to die soon, no question, just want to make it more comfortable for him as he slips away. Also, humans do shit that's bad for them all the time, but that's their decision. If the cannabinoids are unhealthy for him in a purely physical way, I don't think it's a bad idea. If it's bad for him cause the high makes him feel bad, then I would understand it. That certainly doesn't seem to be the case though. In his mind, one way or another, he wants more. Are the decisions made by pets invalid because we can't truly know what they're thinking?

You guys should see the before and after... his eyes light up again, and he acts like a kitten, and he can do things he physically couldn't before. It blew me and his owner away how apparent his relief was.

 

[bennyZA]

From a vet:

Is it ever a good idea to get your dog or cat stoned? California veterinarian Doug Kramer says the answer depends on whether your pet could be classified as a medical marijuana patient.

"I do think there are therapeutic benefits to it," says Kramer, who some years ago found that his homemade pot tinctures helped his own dog, a husky named Nikita, fight pain and regain her appetite after she came down with cancer.

Despite the spread of medical pot laws around the country, marijuana still remains taboo within the veterinary establishment; its medical journals won't publish anything about it, and Kramer is one of the few veterinarians even willing to discuss using medical marijuana for pets. He points out that a slew of medical studies on the effects of pot have relied on rats and dogs as substitutes for humans, suggesting that "mammals have the same cannabinoid receptors as humans do" and "would benefit in the same ways."

Perhaps the nation's only overtly 420-friendly vet, Kramer has crowdsourced a slew of research on pot for pets. Through submissions to his website, VetGuru.com, and surveys distributed at pot dispensaries, he has amassed more than 500 case studies, the vast majority of them positive, he says. Most people use cannabis to treat their dogs and cats for pain, seizures, and inflammation stemming from arthritis. About 20 percent of phone calls to Kramer's office now come from other cannabis-curious vets...

...Cannabis may have a bad name among vets because they tend only to see the animals that have overdosed

 

[Morphling]

You made me realize I'm really not sure! This is just what I've been told by a vet. I've looked up some studies and of course nobody knows how they subjectively experience getting loaded on pot, but from my understanding, the partial CB1 agonists in weed produce profound relaxation of vascular cerebral tone(good for migraines and what in humans), hypothermia, and few other notable physical effects in feline brains.

I WAS confused when I said what I said, I think I was confounded with the effects that consumption of irises on cats, not weed. I've seen cats go pretty schizo on weed before, so perhaps kitties are sensitive to the effects of weed just like we are, in different ways. Some people love pot, some hate it.

So, unless my understanding is incorrect, perhaps it does help the cat! From what you've seen of it, perhaps it really does. Do cats munch on sativa in the wild? That would be interesting to know, wouldn't it?

When my dog was extremely old and unwell, I was feeding him my dilaudid, and if you have read my posts in OD and elsewhere, you know how much of a sacrifice that would be, as my opioid addiction is PROFOUND. But I couldn't watch him suffer while I could help him, I am not that cold. My dog was pilled up and happy for weeks before he died.

The binding studies conducted pertaining to this subject...I cannot parse them in a way which is valuable, I just haven't had that schooling and my understanding of the data points is utterly lacking. Perhaps the ADD people could make sense of this? It's certainly worth asking Ebola? or Sekio or someone what they thunk.

This is the study I was referencing above:

http://ajpheart.physiology.org/content/276/6/H2085

There are others, but they didn't seem to pertain really to the subject at hand.

 

[Jibult]

Are the decisions made by pets invalid because we can't truly know what they're thinking?

You guys should see the before and after... his eyes light up again, and he acts like a kitten, and he can do things he physically couldn't before. It blew me and his owner away how apparent his relief was.

Invalid? No. As caregiver to an animal, however, it's an owner's responsibility to foresee potential consequences of their pets actions and make a ruling as to whether or not they should allow certain behaviors to continue. (I realize we're not talking about your cat here, Benny, I'm just speaking generally.) It's a lot like parenting that way.


I've seen old dogs get a second wind after getting some cannabis in their system. My last dog before the two I have now, a predominantly black Lab of a mutt named Indigo, died of bone cancer at 14. We didn't even know about the cancer until she had a super clean (and what turned out to be fatal) break in one of her femurs. At around 11 or 12 years old she got into the habit of searching out my stash and eating every last flake of weed she could get. Afterwards, I can barely even describe the transformation I would see in her, almost like words couldn't do justice to just how dramatically better she seemed, even though I didn't know she was ill at the time. She was running, jumping, trying to get me to slapbox with her, going back and forth along the fence to race with the puppies next door. It was nothing short of amazing, in my mind, to get a brief glimpse into the past whenever she managed to steal my bud, like she was a puppy and I was 8 years old again trying to think of a name for her.

I understand how powerful witnessing that kind of transformation in a pet can be. It almost seems wrong afterwards to deny them that fleeting chance at feeling/acting young again, and it's easy to ride the fence on this one with both sides of the argument making sound points.

I WAS confused when I said what I said, I think I was confounded with the effects that consumption of irises on cats, not weed. I've seen cats go pretty schizo on weed before, so perhaps kitties are sensitive to the effects of weed just like we are, in different ways. Some people love pot, some hate it.

I've never seen an animal that enjoyed smoke clouds, though! Cats seem to all freak out when they've got smoke all around them and are being held in one place. That's a good way to get cut, man.

Dogs don't seem to like the smoke much, either, but I've actually known a couple dogs that seemed to deliberately throw their face into smoke clouds that people were exhaling.

 

[bennyZA]

I've never seen an animal that enjoyed smoke clouds, though! Cats seem to all freak out when they've got smoke all around them and are being held in one place. That's a good way to get cut, man.

That's the craziest part, if you saw how he searched out the smoke itself, and how pissed he got when I took the weed away from him, it would blow your mind. There is this smile on his face as the smoke gets to him, I swear. When he didn't want to smoke anymore, he just started purring and kneading my belly and then fell asleep peacefully for the first time in awhile. When we smoked again while he was asleep, he got up, yawned, went to my buddy with the bong and meowed. Honestly, I don't think my buddy fully appreciates his age. He still plays with him like a kitten, throwing him around and stuff, since the cat can't fight it, I think he didn't realize how old he had gotten. I don't think any of his family did either. He's 23, it's time for him to rest and be as happy as possible until the inevitable. I'm so happy to make him happy in these lasts months, maybe weeks. He really took a turn for the worst very fast. We tried to get him to jump on the couch by himself and he couldn't do it. This was before the weed discovery, after weed he could.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

How did the cat live to be 23? I would have your friend talk to a vet and not give the cat drugs like cannabis.

 

[bennyZA]

Why not? It works. Could you elaborate on your reasons?

If my friend went to to a vet no doubt he/she would recommend putting him down. Would I rather see him smoke weed, despite potential harm that there seems to be very, very little evidence for, or see him die? Hmmmmm. Even if he didn't recommend putting him down, what would the vet do, give him morphine? I'd rather see my buddy's cat (Shadow is his name, btw) happy and playful then zonked out by opiates. Besides euthanasia and opiates what would a vet do? Let's be frank, vets are expensive, any treatment is going to be expensive. Shadow has months, weeks, perhaps days left. Although it could be longer considering how playful (I say that with a grain of salt) and pain free he seems when he's high. Like I said, this is palliative care. It's about making him as comfy as possible during his remaining time. Like I said, he seeks it out too. We're not forcing him or anything, we didn't even do it as an experiment, he came to us. I think he can make his own decisions too, he's probably older than most BLers.

I'm not sure how he got to 23, we know it's true case there are a bunch of pictures of my friend at 3 and Shadow as a kitten. He stayed outdoors a lot in a beautiful natural area, he hunted his own, real, food. His favorite food was rabbit. He used to bring back rabbits all the time. He didn't start eating cat food until he couldn't hunt anymore. He also was constantly around people that love him when he was indoors. People played with him a lot, pet him, all that stuff. He grew up with 2 cat buddies. He's got a great life. Maybe the natural food, the outdoors, being fit, being happy, and having friends got him to this age.

Btw, I know he's not my cat, but if you can't tell me and Shadow are close. My buddy and I lived together for awhile, so me and Shadow lived together. I care about him a lot. Just seeing his little cat smile and seeing him roll around and act funny like a kitten... it almost brought me to tears. I was so sad that I thought maybe euthanasia would be a good thing for him, but seeing him after smoking... wow... just... wow.

 

[Black Rabbit of Inle]

Like I said, this is palliative care. It's about making him as comfy as possible during his remaining time

If the cannabinoids are unhealthy for him in a purely physical way, I don't think it's a bad idea.

^These two statements contradict each other.

The reason there's not much information regarding the health risk to a pet, is because there hasn't been any study into it. It borders on animal cruelty (although the cat is seeking it out).

If you truly cared about making the cat as comfortable as possible, then a non-active tincture is your best bet. You're not aiming to get the cat high, you want the relief cannabis provides, which it can do without being orally active.

It's not strange for cats to live so long these days, I think the world record is 30+ years. The average life expectancy is still 15-18 years so your friends cat has been very lucky to have a life as long as it has.

 

[ComfortablyNumb95]

ha this reminded of when me and 2 friends of mine blew akb48 smoke onto a porcupine's face and he was on the floor for like 20 minutes in fetus position breathing really heavily. we thought he was about to die but then he crawled his way back to his shelter (stopping a few times)
he never came back, poor porcupine

 

[bennyZA]

^These two statements contradict each other.

How so? We're relieving his suffering without treating any underlying cause, and we aren't taking into consideration the possible long term health effects for obvious reasons.

I also don't see why it should be a food additive that's no psychoactive. Even if he gets high, what if that's the reason he likes it now? Why should we say "bad kitty" when he's not a kitten anymore, he likes the weed smoke for one reason or another. It's changed his life for the better and why use tinctures or whatever when he likes smoking and it works for him. Honestly though, at this point, there is no taking away the weed from him. I saw him since the last time I posted and he was even more into smoking, it was nuts, you'd have to lock him in another room to avoid him wanting to smoke.

 

[MrSpeedyG]

Any psycoactive substance used on pets is a no-no in my eyes.

Apart from drug metabolism being different ie caffeine in dogs... Humans have a different sense of reality and understanding compared to pets.

Just no.

 

[bennyZA]

Can you elaborate? The reality is that the cat seems to get medical relief and my understanding is that he's the one to make the decision on what works for him, not me. He stuck his face over the ash tray after putting out a joint so he could get some weed smoke ffs.

 

[MrSpeedyG]

bennyZA, I haven't read the full thread merely voiced my general opinion on the topic.

 

[bennyZA]

I see, I kinda figured that. So yea, cat likes weed a lot cause it makes him feel better. He came to me, i didn't offer it to him.

 

[Jibult]

I see, I kinda figured that. So yea, cat likes weed a lot cause it makes him feel better. He came to me, i didn't offer it to him.

I'd like to point out that the youthful playfulness Shadow shows after dosing could backfire on him depending on just how bad of a condition his body's in. It's like taking an NSAID for a strained muscle-- symptoms are masked, but the issues still there and overexertion could lead to more serious problems in the immediate future.


My dog with bone cancer? She broke her femur stepping outside to pee. It's not like anything crazy was going on, she just wanted to do something that her body wasn't okay with for whatever reason. It might be a good idea to keep that in mind if you choose to go forward with this.

If you truly cared about making the cat as comfortable as possible, then a non-active tincture is your best bet. You're not aiming to get the cat high, you want the relief cannabis provides, which it can do without being orally active.

When read from a neutral standpoint, I think this is the most sensible compromise between traditional veterinary treatment and the alternative relief cannabis can provide.