MDMA loss of "magic". Is it in your head, or in your MDMA?

[Sqqlut]

Hello fellow Bluelighter, this is going to be a bit long so happy reading!

I'm mostly on Reddit but I obviously can't ignore Bluelight's gold standard when it's about harm reduction. It's also hard to get into an argument on Reddit about loss of magic without someone just posting a link of this famous "What is wrong with the MDMA available today?" link, without a word. Just the link. At first, I admit that it was very interesting because some people are not rolling that often and they "lost the magic". So a change in the compound could be an easy and simple explanation. The thing is, this loss of magic happened to me about two years ago, from the same batch. I just overdid it by taking ~200mg of MDMA every 6-7 weeks for about 2-3 years (with longer and shorter breaks). I eventually got it back without having longer breaks or reducing the dosages. Now you will say that this is purely anecdotal or subjective and it's a worthless piece of information, and you are not wrong. But what if I told you that I shared what I did with others, and that 18 out of 20 people who lost the magic actually got it back? This Redditor brings the magic back with one simple trick, Bluelighters hate him!

I love drugs. And I love MDMA. Not being able to enjoy MDMA anymore is not something that I was ready to swallow. I actually spent all my evenings and some nights reading research papers to reincoforce my knowledge in chemistry, neuropharmacology and everything between. Knowing that Methamphetamine was "similar", at least in term of some damaged brain regions, I started to search papers speaking about how to get your brain back on tracks after Methamphetamine abuse. It helped a lot because Methamphetamine is more researched than MDMA, and there have been some great finds regarding one specific compound named NAC (or N-acetyl L-cysteine) and one paper was specifically monitoring the positive effects. Let me quote the interesting part:

NAC reversed LPS, MA and LPS + MA-induced anxiety-like social withdrawal behaviours, as well as MA and LPS + MA-induced deficits in recognition memory. PPI deficits were evident in MA, LPS and LPS + MA models, with NAC reversing that following LPS + MA. NAC reversed LPS, MA and LPS + MA-induced frontal cortical dopamine (DA) and noradrenaline (NA) elevations, LPS and LPS + MA-induced frontal cortical 3,4-dihydroxyphenylacetic acid (DOPAC), serotonin (5-HT) and striatal NA deficits as well as LPS + MA-induced frontal cortical 5-HT turnover. Decreased IL-10 in the LPS, MA and LPS + MA animals, and increased TNF-α in the LPS and MA animals, was reversed with NAC. NAC also reversed elevated lipid peroxidation and ROS in the LPS and LPS + MA animals.

Now that's interesting! These regions are critical for MDMA, what about reversing Methamphetamine induced frontal cortical Serotonin turnover? You got it right, there is a small probability that it could work, in theory. What if I accidentally order 250 grams of NAC through the interwebs and drop 600mg of it everyday on an empty stomach? It is exactly what a MDMA fiend who lost the magic would do. This is exactly what I did. In only a few weeks of NAC, I dropped 125mg of MDMA without redosing at it was way stronger than the last time. Wait a minute, I take 25mg less, don't redose, wait only 3 weeks and it's stronger and longer? Let's pursue the adventure then! And I did it again and again for about 3-4 months straight, taking MDMA ~every months, and each experiences were stronger than the previous ones.

What if I share it on r/MDMA then? Now that I was holding some "worth-sharing" piece of information, this is what I did. Describing this story, the methods, the results and everything between. Now, I guess it's the same thing here and everywhere, Reddit contains a lot of people in despair who are ready to do anything to get the magic back. So, spending as much as 0.05€ a day to get the magic back, do you imagine how outrageous the whole process is?! It's ridiculously cheap, simple and easy, and this why a few people started to go through their "NAC treatment". Not only they tried it, but they also started to send their personal results back. After about 3 months (long enough for the awareness, purchace and treatment), I gathered all 4 reports and made a "part 2" threads of the same topic, which gathered more momentum and today, 3 months aftetr the "part 4", there are about 25-30 Redditors who sent back their reports back to me so that I enlarge the sample size.

Today, of the 20 people who lost the magic, 18 got it back while using NAC. This is a significant result that I think was worth sharing with you. First of all because it could help a lot of people who are struggling with the issue right now, and even those who gave up the fight (I have reports of people having positive results and who really abused the drug hard or did not feel much at all). Secondly, it is also going kind of off-beat with the Bluelight thread that says there is no such a thing as "loss of magic" and that it's just today's shitty MDMA. I wish I was making this up, but some people, actually a lot of people, think this way. It's often said in this thread that the "good MDMA" have a smooth comedown, "lovey" feeling, etc, while the other is some kind of rush, little or no love, a lot of gurning, etc. This theory, even with the studies showing there IS actually some polymorphism going on, or strange MDMA-like impurties, tries to connect two dots, but it's pure hypothesis, and I think it actually could force some new uninformed users to think MDMA loss of magic does not exist or is overrated, going hard fearlessly in the process. I offer a method which is not for MDMA but seems to work well. I offer some significant results. Call them anecdotal, empirical, or as you please, but the dots are connected. I could be wrong, but how do 90% of my sample size make the same mistake?

I think MehMDA definitely plays a role. What isn't MDMA doesn't work the same way on your brain than what is the real stuff. It's impossible to contest that. What I contest is people who try to explain everything from it. MDMA abuse applies some powerfull and lasting effects on the brain chemistry and the "e-tards" are not missing to tell the tales, neither the scientific research. I believe the MehDMA might have some side effects, or maybe that it just reduces the total amount of actual MDMA you ingest, having an impact on your roll in the process. Since after a serious Amphetamine induced SERT density loss, the said SERT density regrows in some kind of exponential fashion, the days/weeks/months following an Amphetamine induced abuse show almost no regrowth, mostly because it's much harder to build a net that is more dense when there is no net to start from. The more you damaged your net, the more time it takes to rebuild, up to 25+ weeks depending of the SERT density reduction. Now it's possible to explain why people who wait 3 months still lost the magic, by successively reducing the SERT density while it wasn't fully back to it's best. At first, you can't notice because you are still in the green, then your 4th, or 15th MDMA experience is meh, but you wait 3 months, you don't abuse, you eat, work-out and sleep well, but MDMA is not the same anymore.

Just random thoughts, trying to build some kind of bridge between Reddit and Bluelight. Going further than the posts that only contain the URL of that famous thread like it was the Holy Book or I don't know what. I'd also enjoy some feedbacks from people who took NAC.

Have a good day!

 

[TripSitterNZ]

I have abused mdma heavily and will still feel the magic pure love of extremely good presses i rolled alot since 2003 this year i have finally stepped back on my usage and taken longer breaks of a 1-3 months. I suffer long term side effects of terrible migraines and some strong depression that i have been curing with mushrooms. My long and short term memory became very impaired. Im not sure if believe in losing the magic maybe some people might. If these people believe they have lost the magic i suggest experimenting with a heroic dose of LSD and see if mdma is any different after that trip

I also used alot of LSD during that time in heroic doses so maybe i was giving my brain a reset to keep the magic alive. I know lower quality product is trash espically anything that is even remotly related or touched the DN. All the mdma on their is mega fucking trash. People need to start getting their mdma from proper international mafias in bigger amounts instead of buying caps at a time to get good product.

Life time tolerance goes up with heavy mdma use. I dont feel much from anything under 200 mg these days but if i drop 250-300 mg of very good mdma i will feel the magic love again. I also prefer combining my mdma with mda

Losing the magic could be a combination of low quality product and the experince been instilled in a user so it no longer happens.

 

[Swim15]

I’ll say that I’ve experienced some loss of magic myself with maybe 10-12 lifetime uses of MDMA, typically 3-4 months between uses (3-5 per year and try to equally space them but a couple 6 weeks apart).

My rolls have always been in the 130-170mg range for first dose with a second redose 1/2 the original on some, maybe half, of my uses.

The loss I’ve felt I’d guess say is due to changes in oxytocin and serotonin - mostly less of the overwhelming love and empathy part.

I’ve used harm reduction practices extensively (have a detailed thread on here about my protocols and experiences) and have used copious amounts of NAC over the past year and a half for liver protection, cognitive function, immune system boosting, and harm reduction as it works by converting into glutathione.

I’d second this use although I have not noticed the same effect - may try mega dosing before my next roll and report back. Ido think piracetam also helped as well.

Oh - worth noting, the MDMA I’ve used has all been from the same batch for the past several years and outstanding.

This and other info gathered here is helpful though so seeing this compiled is great and more anecdotal reports are a wealth of knowledge.

 

[Sqqlut]

may try mega dosing before my next roll and report back

Don't take NAC at the same time as the MDMA else it will significantly reduce the effects of the MDMA. It's not here to "preload" or whatever, it's more a tool to repair the damages rather than something that will "boost" your roll. NAC is used to fully prevent Methamphetamine neurotoxicity, but it also prevents the whole high (at least everything that is pleasant), this is why Methamphetamine users don't take NAC except to reduce the cravings when they try to get out of their addictions (NAC can reduce stimulants cravings).

NAC half-life is abour 6 hours, better wait ~30 hours (5 half-lives) before taking the MDMA. Some people took NAC close to the MDMA (even if I told them not to) and they reported having reduced effects. You can take it at the minute you want to stop rolling by the way. It could prevent the neurotoxicity to pursue when the night is over.

 

[indigoaura]

Hi @Sqqlut,

I saw your thread over on Reddit earlier this year, and I bought the NAC and took it for awhile. I couldn't tolerate it very well when taking it daily, so I was taking it every other day. I did not notice much of an effect on my roll with that dosage, but I will go back to it and give it another go.

Just want to comment though on how you reference the other thread...I don't think anyone in that thread is trying to disprove tolerance as a relevant issue. I know that has certainly never been my main point, and that is not the impression I have gotten from others.

Tolerance is a very real thing. I know I have developed significant tolerance to 2CB over the last 13 years, as I took it pretty frequently. I don't get to quite the same level of psychadelia off the same dose anymore. But, there are fundamental elements of the 2CB experience that are the same, despite the tolerance. I can absolutely tell that it is 2CB due to certain key characteristics of the experience, despite the fact that the experience itself is a bit less intense. And, in a blind test, I could tell the difference between 2CB, LSD, and mushrooms.

I developed some tolerance to MDMA during my first 5 years of use, while I still had the same supplier, and the product was good. Could I tell that I had developed a tolerance? Sure. But the drug was still inherently the same.

Taking MDMA and feeling a tolerance is very different from taking something that does not feel like MDMA. And, that distinction is not something that is going to be apparent unless you experience it firsthand.

There is no reason to set up a debate like "us vs. them," tolerance vs. bad product. Both are issues and both need to be addressed. I'm always glad to read of suggestions for improving my brain health, and better recovering from drug use, preparing for more use etc. I have a bottle of NAC and a bottle of Lion's Mane Mushrooms for this very purpose.

But don't get resentful because someone links the other thread. There is important work going on in that thread, and there is some bullshit product being sold as MDMA right now.

Thanks for posting.

 

[MazDan]

Think of it this way........... You watch a movie for the first time and get blown away.
Subsequent views of the same movie will become less and less magical.
However the movie is still exactly the same movie.
You just got used to it and knew what to expect.

 

[Swim15]

Don't take NAC at the same time as the MDMA else it will significantly reduce the effects of the MDMA. It's not here to "preload" or whatever, it's more a tool to repair the damages rather than something that will "boost" your roll. NAC is used to fully prevent Methamphetamine neurotoxicity, but it also prevents the whole high (at least everything that is pleasant), this is why Methamphetamine users don't take NAC except to reduce the cravings when they try to get out of their addictions (NAC can reduce stimulants cravings).

NAC half-life is abour 6 hours, better wait ~30 hours (5 half-lives) before taking the MDMA. Some people took NAC close to the MDMA (even if I told them not to) and they reported having reduced effects. You can take it at the minute you want to stop rolling by the way. It could prevent the neurotoxicity to pursue when the night is over.

I’m going to disagree as I’ve used it numerous times with MDMA and it’s never reduced the effects of a roll. Probably potentiated them slightly if anything. Also did not impact magic on earlier rolls compared to later ones. I’ve got multiple friends that use the same harm reduction protocol and have said the same.

 

[heatlessbbq]

I first started with ecstasy in 2004. Never only took one pill in a night. Always took 2 or 3. I wanted to roll balls.
My first 30 raves were nothing but rolling and ecstasy [MDMA]. It wasn't until My 12th rave or so, a raver asked Me about "Molly"...
Said it was "way cleaner and better than ecstasy"... Kept hearing about it; party after party. Never tried it...
Kept doing what I was introduced to at raves... And that was ecstasy. Blue dolphins, Orange Buddhas, triple stacked blue and white diamonds, pink playboys... etc.

It wasn't until 2009 or 2010 I started doing "Molly"... Hearing about "molly" being a powder in a baggie appealed to Me at the time... For some reason.
Was led to believe that Molly was "better and safer" than ecstasy. Tried Molly... SEVERAL times before realizing I wasn't 'rolling' anymore...
Still had great nights and experiences none the less. Just was missing something... Huge to Me... I wasn't on what I wanted to be on... I was on "Molly'. Not ECSTASY.

I am heavily amused by the Title of this thread, btw. Good luck, Mates.

Kept picking up moon rocks, "molly", sass... Whatever came to Me... Came to Me.
I'm sure some half grams bags I picked up over periods of time over years [2010-2015] wasn't even "molly", some brownish orange shit that smelled like cyanide...
I wanted that amazing, pressed triple stacked ECSTASY ROLL, man. Never got it.
Like at all those raves I went to back in 2004-2010.

I stand here confidently saying... I have not rolled on MDMA since 2010.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Think of it this way........... You watch a movie for the first time and get blown away.
Subsequent views of the same movie will become less and less magical.
However the movie is still exactly the same movie.
You just got used to it and knew what to expect.

That analogy doesn't work I'm afraid. The movie I watched for the first time was fuckin amazing. It was also fuckin amazing for many subsequent viewings. Then it wasn't. Then it was. Then it wasn't. Still the same fuckin movie...

 

[heatlessbbq]

Have You seen the movie "Go"?

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Go? No.

 

[heatlessbbq]

Check it out. It's a movie about rolling, ecstasy, and "the good times".

 

[indigoaura]

And, not to just keep emphasizing the points from the other thread, but a virgin user would not have tolerance issues.

Sometimes it is clearly tolerance. I recall an experience where I rolled with a friend who was a virgin user. She rolled really hard, and I didn't. I thought the pills were "ok" but not great. She was blown away. Obviously tolerance on my part.

But, when you have large groups of people all reporting the same negative effects, and some of those people are new users and some are not...tolerance just does not explain it. Especially when those people can just try a different product and everything is as it should be.

 

[Sqqlut]

I’m going to disagree

You can disagree with what I said, but you can't disagree with people's reports.

I find it kind of disappoiting that most people here still rely on some kind of million-dollar equipments for MDMA analysis while rejecting NAC and its $0.05 a day treatment. I mean, you disagree and repeat the same thing than in the other thread, which is you had decent MDMA then now it's MehMDA, and all these things again and again, actually believing to detain the truth which is still certainly not understood well enough at all, rejecting some informations, reports and a research paper that I both didn't even show you.

Also a lot of Argumentatum Ad Populum claiming that, if a lot of people claim it's the MehDMA, then it's true. I wish I was making this up. This is just newbie scientist mistakes here. Along with impossible-to-verify analogies of what tolerance is and how it works for MDMA or a movie. You are way more likely to research about loss of effects from the MDMA, end here and share your story that you are if the MDMA works just perfectly. I mean, most of us have started to come on internet speaking about drugs to seek about drugs knowledge because we had a personal problem/question, and this behavior is biasing all you are thinking when you say "a lot of people have the very same issue". It's a forum to speak about how MDMA doesn't work, you can't expect people claiming it works, so all you obtain is a biased sample size of people who have some weird MDMA experiences and try to find some explanations. You hop on the first, or most relayed one, rejecting the other(s) and this is exactly what's happening here.

To the many claiming it's the tolerance of the feeling, like a movie, a video game or whatever. Neuroscience is an interesting subject that you should understand first. There is something different with MDMA, it's that the feeling is forced. Why is the movie less interesting when it's your second time watching? Because your brain works like that. When you saw something, you now have a memory of it, and the stimulus that triggers the emotional response is now ruined by lack of novelty. Some people are better than others on how to make abstraction of the memories when they rewatch a movie, and this is why they are more likely to rewatch it, like they replay a music. But you can't have a memory of a feeling, you have memories about what your senses sent to your brain, but it does not work for emotions, you can only retain some abstracts versions of it, but not the emotion itself. You just can remember that it was great, but you can't replay the greatness feeling of it, else you'd only need MDMA once, like you usually want to see most movies once, because there is no external stimulus.

It's way too easy to fall in these traps.

 

[indigoaura]

No offense, but I don't think you have any idea what process we have gone through in the other thread, or how much time/energy/effort/research has been put into the topic.

I don't understand the need to turn the conversation into a "one or the other" debate.

You say, "You can disagree with what I said, but you can't disagree with people's reports." We could say the exact same thing to you, but you still reject the reports coming from the other thread.

I find your research fascinating, and the reports from your sample population very promising. I will absolutely give it a try myself. Some people have tolerance issues, and they should give NAC a try. Some people have product issues and all the NAC in the world is not going to help them.

 

[Sqqlut]

The act to research is not the result. You can go through any process, for as long as you want, as much energy, effort and research as you want, it doesn't make an argument for that doesn't mean it gives coherent results.

I specifically came here to get rid of this "your thread" versus the rest, yet you perfectly transform it into a "bluelight thread" against "mine" and blame me for it, and I absolutely take that as an offense. I actually went through this thread, since it was up and up to yesterday, and you assume I didn't, and I take that as a second personal offense. I mean, I did not come for a 'debate', I came for an informed discussion from both sides of the spectrum, including the nuance between them, but you come here claiming one is right because it's up longer, it gave more energy or whatever, but this is not the kind of argument to insert in a debate if you want one. I try to build bridges, and you nuke them with fallacies.

And you should really CTRL+F "debate", please, instead of going full off-topic.

Some people have tolerance issues, and they should give NAC a try.

Once again, NAC is not fixing a "tolerance issue". If you actually have a tolerance issue, NAC is not going to do anything. "Drug induced frontal cortical 5-HT turnover" is NOT a tolerance issue, it's a neurotoxocity induced issue from the drug, and NAC is not here to reset a tolerance but to actually reverse the damages done to the brain. Damages that are very real, MDMA or MehDMA.

 

[indigoaura]

I am not looking for a debate, and you are placing a lot of imagined emotion behind my words that is not there. I have literally stated in both my posts that I feel you are making excellent points, and I find your work interesting.

But your initial post gave off a vibe or resentment regarding the link to the other thread getting posted. If that was not what you intended, then my apologies. But when you are saying things like, "This Redditor brings the magic back with one simple trick, Bluelighters hate him!" you are using a negative connotation of "us vs. them." Why would anyone here hate someone from Reddit for being thoughtful and insightful about a topic?

Then you included an entire paragraph criticizing the other thread and making statements about it that are not accurate (one reason it seemed you did not really read the thread), which I tried to address in my response. For someone who wants to build bridges, that seems like an odd choice. Why not just share your findings and information and let them stand on their own without criticizing another thread?

but you come here claiming one is right because it's up longer, it gave more energy or whatever,

What are you talking about and where did I say this?

 

[indigoaura]

I do have some specific queries about your NAC research. Is there a particular brand of NAC that people seem to have better results with? I ordered NOW brand initially. Also, is there any evidence that taking less than 600 mg per day would be beneficial?

 

[Sqqlut]

But when you are saying things like, "This Redditor brings the magic back with one simple trick, Bluelighters hate him!" you are using a negative connotation of "us vs. them."

I was just using a clickbait format, "This X founds a cure to Y with one simple trick, doctors hate him". It's obvious sarcasm, at least for an internet user, and a not so obvious sarcasm for your grandparents who will actually get baited and buy a monthly subscription to a weight loss program.

What are you talking about and where did I say this?

No offense, but I don't think you have any idea what process we have gone through in the other thread, or how much time/energy/effort/research has been put into the topic.

This is not an argument.

 

[indigoaura]

That quote does not mean that "one is right because it is up longer." It was in response to your previous post where you spent a paragraph criticizing, "Argumentatum Ad Populum," "million-dollar equipment," and bias.

Since we both agree there is no need for an argument, just a small suggestion...maybe try less criticism? We are used to discourse here. If you post something re: other people's ideas, bias, etc, then you are likely to get someone responding to that. Keep the focus on your research and your concept. There is no need to tear other ideas down in order for your concept to stand.