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Lysergamides MAPS Found Liable in LSD Death

Pfafffed

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I somehow missed this, but I stumbled on the article in r/Bluelight.


I've never heard of a death caused by LSD toxicity before. The toxicological report found no evidence of NBOx for what it's worth. I hate to be put in the position to have to either distrust the tox report or more than a half century of empirical data.

It has interesting implications for MAPS and Zendo.
 
We had a case of a woman insufflating like 50mg of pure LSD, thinking it was cocaine, and her health ended up not just intact but in fact improved. How sad that MAPS is being blamed for the first LSD death (?) in history. Sure they did their forensic checks good enough to rule out any research chemical? $1 million in damages payment, how fucked up.
 
RIP, I don't want to comment re apportioning blame or anything as it's a complex situation

I have worked in very similar harm reduction initiatives at festivals and such focussing primarily on easing people's experience of bad trips etc. Due to that I suppose it's only natural that my first thought after "Oh shit, that's terrible RIP" was basically the same sentiment that MAPS illustrated in the quote from the article below

"In its statement, MAPS says it believes that the verdict in this case could impact the ability of harm reduction groups to provide peer support. “MAPS recognizes that the result of this trial may now engender a chilling effect for the organizations that offer harm reduction services,” reads the MAPS statement. "
 
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So they didn’t give the victim water to drink or treat them while they were convulsing and stuff?
This is not good for making progress in psychedelic assisted therapy and treatment of mental illnesses.
 
Was MAPS the one with the story that came out recently about them employing a rapist therapist using MDMA to groom his victims? If so, yikes

Yeah, they had a therapist who was doing inappropriate things, I'm not sure if it was rape, or if it was more that he influenced her to have sex with him. Either way, it was sketchy, and MAPS acted more akin to covering it up, than condemning it and cutting ties. I mean obviously an organization can't necessarily stop someone harmful from abusing the system, if they're good at appearing normal, but from what I remember, the way they handled it was poor. I don't remember all the details, though.
 
We only ever care about organizations like these because the psychedelic medicines are illegal. None of us would care about this type of research otherwise. It's only relevant as a kind of argument for legalization. "Look, it's Science^TM! Pretty please let us have it!" <--- Cementing subordination - it's a trap

I think organizations like MAPS have absolutely nothing to contribute to the psychedelic community. We're better off abandoning them than rooting for them.
 
Science shouldn't be just a weapon against legal oppression. It's supposed to be a knowledge-gathering protocol. Barred from any implicit, overly reductive, philosophical assumptions carried along with it, i.e. "scientism".. barring this side-effect, considering something scientifically really just means as much as considering it carefully.

MAPS has already informed so much of the vanilla population to our cause. Even if only counting the participants in their studies. Also, MDMA is on the brink of being legalized because of Rick, how the bloody hell can you ignore that??
 
Science shouldn't be just a weapon against legal oppression. It's supposed to be a knowledge-gathering protocol. Barred from any implicit, overly reductive, philosophical assumptions carried along with it, i.e. "scientism".. barring this side-effect, considering something scientifically really just means as much as considering it carefully.

MAPS has already informed so much of the vanilla population to our cause. Even if only counting the participants in their studies. Also, MDMA is on the brink of being legalized because of Rick, how the bloody hell can you ignore that??

I agree with the first paragraph.

I don't think we need organizations doing basic research confirming that great drugs are great drugs and that they do indeed work for the stuff that anyone who takes them realizes that they do indeed work for! It's more branding and territorialism than research to me. But i'm open to being wrong. I know there's real research on the neurochemistry of psychedelics, but that doesn't seem to be what MAPS is going for. Browsing the page, participatory surveys seem to be the methodology.

I've heard the name Rick before, but to me this is entirely impersonal. I'm not even saying this Rick or anyone is doing something wrong.
 
I think his points is that MAPS has single-handedly pushed MDMA all the way through from scary illicit street drug, to stage 3 trials for psychotherapy medicine. Rick is Rick Doblin, the head of MAPS. MAPS has done a huge amount of work and is one of the big reasons why the ban on psychedelic medicine research, and the stigma against psychedelics, has been lifted and the climate has changed. Not the only ones, but a big leading reason.

I have way more of a problem with other organizations, who are patenting and trying to monetize psychedelics. MAPS isn't doing this. At least not to my knowledge.

The organization isn't perfect, but they've done a lot of good for the cause. Arguably more than any other organization.
 
Point taken. But it's a lot easier to point at an activist scientific organization than the amorphous anonymous sum of users, dealers and manufacturers throughout history that constitute the bulk of this renaissance. This dynamic is something to be aware of.

I'm playing with this idea. I guess this Rick guy would have to cede my point. Don't you think?
 
We had a case of a woman insufflating like 50mg of pure LSD, thinking it was cocaine, and her health ended up not just intact but in fact improved.
Could you elaborate on this, her health improved? How so?

I remember reading some time ago now about something similar happening I thought, although in that case the person did actually die, I can't remember if other substances were involved although obviously they could have been. I guess they probably were, realistically. Although it doesn't seem totally unbelievable to me either that LSD could be just very slightly more dangerous in accidental-ingestion sky high doses than some other classical psychedelics, being that it is just more stimulating than some, if only marginally. Maybe that's a wrong perception, I dunno.


Anyway sad to hear this both for the fact that someone died and the fact that every drug related death is going to be used as ammunition for prohibitionists regardless of the reality of the situation. On the other hand MAPS have a very large responsibility because of this, which they are, obviously, plainly aware of, on top of their duty of care that they obviously have by default, and it sounds very much like they did not meet this duty.

I'm sure nobody involved wanted anyone to die, but man... I was almost just gonna leave it there but I had to just go back and check the article again. MAPS' response to this is immensely frustrating and IMO WORSE than the actual negligence. Again, I want to believe there was genuinely no malicious intent here or even deliberate carelessness, sometimes people do die unexpectedly in circumstances that, retrospectively, could have been avoided, and should be avoided from that point forward. But MAPS were found "partially guilty". That's fair. They ARE partially responsible. Someone died on their watch, there is just no way around that fact - no matter what good intentions they might have had to avoid that kind of thing from happening. The correct response would be to accept responsibility, face whatever punishment was dealt, and publicly implement changes so that everyone knows that they learned from this and accept that it should not have happened - and so that everyone can see that an organisation seemingly involved with something that many people are still quite wary of, is acting with integrity.

INSTEAD, they TRIED TO BLAME THE WOMAN WHO DIED, are going to challenge the verdict, thus drawing out the suffering for her surviving family, AND, for the most part, as far as I can tell, do not seem to have really accepted responsibility for what happened, but are just trying to shift blame onto whatever 3rd party organisations they were working with. :mad:

Frankly, it doesn't matter if these organisations were more responsible than MAPS itself, MAPS is still the most visible face of the movement for legitimising psychedelic drugs involved, and thus how they're perceived to respond to this event has far wider implications in the near and medium term future than the actual reality of how blame should be divided up. Someone died on their watch, they are at least partly responsible, and just a little more public remorse would not go amiss. The way they are acting is not a good look, to put it mildly, and undermines their own credibility, and, aside from being honestly just kinda callous and uncaring is just mind-numbingly short-sighted and IMHO just really kinda fucked up and unethical actually.

I get that yeah, the fine is a lot of money, I don't actually know much or anything about how MAPS' finances are looking, maybe there are real practical realities about how they can continue operating which are known to those involved in the trial and this is how they can justify acting in such a fucking shady way, but still... that just doesn't excuse it, IMO, even if it meant the demise of MAPS it would be because they let someone die, ultimately. Not because they didn't fight a bereaved family hard enough in court.
 
so it sounds like all people having a bad trip at these festivals in hot parts of usa should be evaluated by these medical tent emergency people and that didn't happen until 1 am. its like going to a+e and having some woman throw a towel on you and no-one medical checks you out.

it sounds like disjointed care. from my point of view maps must have been making $$ out of these bad trip tents from the organisers to justify running it with volunteers and all the dodgy liability that comes with it...
 
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