• DPMC Moderators: thegreenhand | tryptakid
  • Drug Policy & Media Coverage Welcome Guest
    View threads about
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Drug Busts Megathread Video Megathread

Map of the Day: The High Cost of Vaccine Hysteria

I must say that I love how I'm getting attacked for my sources but nobody is actually bothering to go to the articles and see where they're getting their information from.

As for my use of caps, bold, and underline - when I am being attacked, I'm going to get my point across. Not to mention that I was in pretty severe withdrawal today which makes me very bitchy. :|

NSA, I'm not saying that I'm immune to any disease (except strep as a carrier), but what I am saying is that there is plenty of evidence that shows that almost all of these diseases were already on the decline before the vaccines and in some cases, their prevalence increased when the vaccine was deployed.

The second site I linked that has the graphs - those are from official UK and Australian sources. They're the mortality rates of various diseases over the years. Its fascinating to look at them because in most cases, the vaccine came near the end of the fatalities anyway. Most likely what happened is we had begun to adapt to them as a species on our own before the vaccines.

I don't care if people get vaccines. What I do care about is radical ideas about taking away my freedoms because I use my freedom and choose to not get vaccinated. By all means, quarantine me if I get sick. That's reasonable. But punishing me for something that has a low chance of happening (its rare that an infectious disease that is easily spread has a high mortality rate these days) is unacceptable and so is forcing me to get immunizations to benign things (I mean they push the deadly HPV vaccine on BOYS now!)
 
Most likely what happened is we had begun to adapt to them as a species on our own before the vaccines.

Suuuure, we spent two-million years in an evolutionary arms race with these diseases and we were *just* about to win when we coincidentally invented vaccines for the very same diseases. That probably definitely is the most likely scenario. No doubt about it. I mean, if you were calculating odds on the most likely scenario, that's where you'd put your money.

Thanks for the insight there, William de Ockham
 
Last edited:
I must say that I love how I'm getting attacked for my sources but nobody is actually bothering to go to the articles and see where they're getting their information from.

That's not quite true though, is it?

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...e-Hysteria?p=12098870&viewfull=1#post12098870

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...e-Hysteria?p=12098890&viewfull=1#post12098890

I think it is fair to say that if someone is presenting sources that promote misinformation at odds with established expert opinion and they themselves reference Facebook and discredited practitioners who have made extraordinary claims that have been conclusively found to have been based on fraud, deceit and manipulation as their primary sources it can be dismissed out of hand. It can no longer be viewed as a reliable or credible source of information.

It ain't rocket science. It just requires the most cursory application of critical thinking skills.
 
Okay well someone explain to me what happened with the mortality rates here:

0707276measles_analg.jpg


0707273mumps.jpg


and this last one is the most interesting

us-deaths-1900-1965.gif


The sources of the information are right there in the images... If we weren't gaining immunities, successfully combating the diseases by sanitation or other methods then why did mortality go down long before vaccines were introduced in the first place and if vaccines are so effective then why isn't there a dramatic decline upon wide deployment? In the case of Diphtheria, the vaccine actually caused a spike before it went down to the level it was at before and continued with a steady decline as the years went on after that recovery.

Something obviously was responsible for the decline in severity and it wasn't vaccines so what was it?

Once a disease loses its mortality, it doesn't make much sense to deploy a vaccination that may or may not cause other problems if you ask me.
 
Okay well someone explain to me what happened with the mortality rates here

Sure thing - in a nutshell, you've been had by some clever statistical sleight of hand. Which, if you had been critical enough to check the validity of the information you're receiving, you could have found out for yourself before posting it here and embarrassing yourself. There is a reason this sort of information you've presented is found on blogs and not respectable medical journals, which is the prevailing academic practice. That's because if it WAS submitted to a journal it would quite quickly be exposed for the piece of chicanery that it really is. The peer-review system is a very effective check and balance in ensuring only valid methodologies get published.

Now, if you can find anything comparable that has been published and subject to review then that would be worth discussing. But, as you can see from below, this sort of statistical manipulation is a low-rent parlour trick. It would never pass review.

http://vicskeptics.wordpress.com/2010/11/08/analysis-of-anti-vax-graphs/

NSFW:
Analysis of Anti-Vax Graphs
Originally posted here; this article shows how convincing-looking graphs can be misused. Robert Webb writes:

The anti-vaccine movement sometimes presents graphs to support their cause, supposedly to show that diseases were on the decline before vaccines came along, and that vaccines had no effect. Graphs seem hard to argue with. They look scientific, represent actual data, and are compelling to many people. And indeed a good graph should be compelling. But their graphs are not good. Let’s have a look at how the true data, which supports the fact that vaccines have had a huge positive effect, can be manipulated to manufacture the conclusion the anti-vax movement wants.

Death rates
Firstly, most of the graphs they show are of death rates, not infection rates. Yes, death rates dropped significantly before vaccines were introduced because other improvements in medicine and sanitation meant that we were better at treating the disease, but it does not indicate that less people had the disease to begin with.

They also tend to show graphs going back a long time to when death rates for common diseases like measles were very high. To fit these high figures on the graph it’s necessary to scale down all the figures, meaning that by the time the vaccine is introduced you can no longer see any drop it may have caused in deaths.

They never show graphs of death rates from third world countries where due to poor sanitation etc. death rates for diseases like measles can still be quite high.

Here’s a nice graph though showing both infection and death rates in the US and it’s clear from both that the 1963 vaccine had a huge effect.

measlesus-430w-v2.gif


The anti-vaxxers claim (e.g. here) that death rates are more reliable than infection rates because they don’t trust the diagnoses made by doctors. The idea is that doctors are biased against diagnosing a disease if the patient has been vaccinated against it. But if the symptoms match, why wouldn’t they test for it? We all know that vaccines are not 100% effective. The above graph shows that infection and death rates are very closely matched, year by year, so it seems that the doctors’ diagnoses match the coronors’ reports, so where’s the evidence for this supposed misdiagnosis?

Infection rates
So the best way to see if a vaccine worked is to look at infection rates. I’ve only seen one infection graph presented by the anti-vax side (in several places, but I found it on the AVN website), so let’s look at that in some detail. Here it is:

fakemeaslesgraph-430w-v2.jpg


This graph has already been demolished on Science-Based Medicine, so I’ll try not to repeat too much of that, though I need to recap a little. Mostly what I want to show is some new graphs (in the next section) that help explain what Dr. Obomsawin did to create the graph he wanted.

Dr. Obomsawin gives his source for the graph as here:

measlescanada-430w-v2.gif


But a better graph of the same data, where actual data points are shown, can be seen in here:

measlescanada2-430w-v2.gif


So what’s wrong with the graph?
Here’s some (but not all) of the ways that this graph deceives us. First, note the slight difference between these last two graphs. The latter graph shows a different point in 1959, before there was a ten year break in national reporting of measles. It appears to be a glitch in the former graph, showing a data point in 1959 when no data is available for that year. My guess is that the graph was made as if all data points were equally spaced, then the ten year gap was inserted, giving the impression that the graph dips down before the introduction of the vaccine, when in fact the dip should be spread across the gap in reporting where the vaccine was introduced. Dr. Obomsawin’s graph makes good use of this non-existence point. I have recreated his graph over the top of the best version of the original graph:

measlesgraph1-430w-v2.gif


You’ll also notice immediately that his graph looks nothing like the source graph. This is because he has only used a data point every 12 years. So he has taken a graph with 68 data points, and used only 5 of them! When accused of cherry picking the data, he responds:

the data was not selectively “cherry picked”, but rather consistently spaced giving accurate data for every 12th year running from 1935 to 1983, a period which is roughly equivalent to a half century.

But cherry picking can still involve evenly-spaced data. Why every 12 years? Why starting at 1935? I’ll show you exactly why this is so important. Simply start at 1933 instead. We’ll even keep Dr. Obomsawin’s arbitrary choice of 12-year spacing. Here’s what you get:

measlesgraph2-430w-v2.gif


Yep, it looks completely different, though I’m using exactly the same technique as Dr. Obomsawin to generate this graph from the same original data. Now it seems quite compelling that measles were on the rise before the vaccine, rather than being on the fall, and that the vaccine pretty much wiped it out. This is what you can get when you discard most of the data, in a pattern of your own choosing, to get the result you want. Remember, his graph shows only 3 points before the vaccine, and the last of those was for a year where data was not available! That leaves just 2 valid data points, which he should know perfectly well is not enough.

And just look at the points he managed to hit with his 12-year spacing. The first just happens to be the highest point on the graph (well above average), and the second is a local minimum (below average). This gives the impression that the graph is dropping before the vaccine, contrary to what the data as a whole really tells us.

Let’s see what Meryl Dorey from the AVN said about this:

For some reason, Dr Obomsawin `smoothed’ the curve (normally called a spline or the line of best fit – a commonly-used scientific method of representing data in a graph)

It would be great if he smoothed the curve, but he did not. He did not smooth the data, and he certainly did not use a line of best-fit. Smoothing doesn’t just mean picking one point every 12 years and throwing the rest away. It may mean taking the average of data over 12 years, say. Everyone can agree that taking an average will give a more accurate picture, right? So that’s what I’ve done below. This is presented as a bar graph, with each bar covering a 12 year period (except for the first and last bars for which less years are available).

measlesgraph3-430w-v2.gif


Interestingly, the two 12-year periods before the vaccine was introduced, averaged out almost identically to each other, and higher than the preceding period. Looking at these averages we clearly see the positive effect of the vaccine.

Looking at the original graph, it’s quite obvious the effect the vaccine had. To take this data and manage to manipulate it to give the exact opposite impression is clearly intellectually dishonest. It’s hard to believe Dr. Obomsawin would not be aware of this deception, though it’s conceivable that he sees himself as “finding the truth” within the data. Who knows?

Robert Webb
 
Last edited:
The sources of the information are right there in the images... If we weren't gaining immunities, successfully combating the diseases by sanitation or other methods then why did mortality go down long before vaccines were introduced in the first place

Because we got better a medicine and those diseases were no longer a death sentence. Mortality rates has zilch to do with vaccinations.
 
Last edited:
I'm laughing my ass off right now.

I haven't had a "vaccine" in 10 years and in that time, I've never had the flu.

Oh and I got measles a month after getting my MMR when I was a kid.

Keep believing what you want about vaccines and I'll keep believing the truth.

http://www.naturalnews.com/041963_vaccines_cancer_viruses_dr_maurice_hilleman.html

^ that's a Merck vaccine creator LAUGHING about putting cancer viruses in vaccines to be given to Americans.

Vaccines kill. They aren't good for anything else.
Okay well someone explain to me what happened with the mortality rates here:

The sources of the information are right there in the images... If we weren't gaining immunities, successfully combating the diseases by sanitation or other methods then why did mortality go down long before vaccines were introduced in the first place and if vaccines are so effective then why isn't there a dramatic decline upon wide deployment? In the case of Diphtheria, the vaccine actually caused a spike before it went down to the level it was at before and continued with a steady decline as the years went on after that recovery.

Something obviously was responsible for the decline in severity and it wasn't vaccines so what was it?

Once a disease loses its mortality, it doesn't make much sense to deploy a vaccination that may or may not cause other problems if you ask me.

Fucking_227312_482462.jpg
 
I must say that I love how I'm getting attacked for my sources but nobody is actually bothering to go to the articles and see where they're getting their information from.

Its the same as people who believe the world leaders are reptiles. I don't have to read your sources to know the info is garbage. Sorry but what you believe is wrong. You can have all the web links you want. When a bunch of peer reviewed articles written by non quacks are published i will change my opinion. I respect science not the lunatic fringe. What is it today with people not being able to tell a crack pot conspiracy site from actual scientific facts? And then putting their kids lives at risk, that shit is disgusting.
 
^^ More analogous with climate science deniers

https://theconversation.com/climate-and-vaccine-deniers-are-the-same-beyond-persuasion-22258

Governments are worried. Vaccination rates are falling under the influence of a campaign of misinformation by a small minority of fanatics.

Scientifically there is no debate about immunisation, with every relevant health authority strongly endorsing vaccination. But anti-vaccination activists refuse to accept the evidence, claiming that “every issue has two sides”.

They believe vaccination is ineffective and unnecessary and that vaccines contain toxins and cause autism. They seize on the occasional dissenting study and exploit it for all it’s worth even after it has been discredited. They go hunting for instances of apparent adverse responses among children and advertise them as proof that jabs are dangerous and should be abandoned.

Anecdotes that seem to confirm their opinions trump mountains of carefully collected scientific evidence.

They spread theories about cover-ups, information-suppression and conspiracies among medical experts. They claim to be protecting our freedom and talk darkly about the government trying to take away our liberty. They portray themselves as David bravely fighting Goliath.

The anti-vaccinators attempt to hide their fanaticism behind a façade of respectability, adopting misleading names for their organisations and promoting the views of “experts” who look credible, but who cannot seem to convert their expertise into publications in peer-reviewed journals. While claiming to have better access to scientific truth, the anti-vaccinators show no respect for best scientific practice and dismiss the established experts as frauds.

These tactics are common knowledge. But every one of them is also used by climate science deniers. And yet the same kind of unhinged repudiation of an overwhelming body of scientific facts is treated not as the private obsession of a handful of nutcases, but as a legitimate part of the “debate” over global warming.

The media treat the anti-vaccinators with the disdain they deserve, but sections of the media see no contradiction in actively promoting the same type of anti-science fanaticism when it comes to climate.

The Australian recently supported attacks on “political correctness” in the school curriculum, giving voice to a teacher who argued that “there’s no Asian way of looking at physics”. Quite so; yet it routinely warns its readers about “left-wing" climate science.

Unhealthy advice

What would we think if Prime Minister Tony Abbott declared “immunization science is crap”? Or if he appointed Meryl Dorey, who runs the Australian Vaccination Network (which was recently ordered to change its misleading name), as chair of the National Preventive Health Agency’s Advisory Council?

Yet Mr Abbott has appointed climate denier Maurice Newman to be chair of his Business Advisory Council. In 2010, while chairman of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, Newman told journalists they should present both sides of the debate. Back then he felt the need to restrain himself. Now unleashed, Newman is in full flight mimicking the anti-vaccinators. Writing last month in The Australian (where else?) he declared that the evidence for human-induced climate change is a “scientific delusion”.

Newman professes to believe that the scientific establishment is engaged in “mass psychology” because it is “intent on exploiting the masses and extracting more money” (to what purpose he did not say). The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change – the main global body that reports the scientific evidence on the issue – allegedly “resorts to dishonesty and deceit” and promotes “the religion behind the climate crusade”. Newman insists there are “credible” scientists who say the Earth is cooling rather than warming.

He says that governments that promote renewable energy are engaged in a “cover-up”, while state health departments are “hiding” evidence on the health dangers of wind farms. He declares that unless someone soon puts a stop to this “climate change madness” most of us will “descend to serfdom”.

Bizarre understanding

In a sane world this kind of fulmination would disqualify anyone from public office. But not today. The same ravings now issue from the mouths of many politicians who ought to know better.

One wonders how a man with Newman’s bizarre understanding of the state of the world can provide the government with sound advice about Australia’s business future, particularly when his claims about how climate policies have “decimated” our manufacturing industry have been rebuffed time and time again by systematic economic analysis.

If a private corporation appoints to its board someone with Newman’s views then that is of no public concern. But to have such a man in a senior public advisory role ought to worry every citizen.

I’m guessing that Newman supports immunisation and would not recognise in himself the kind of primitive thinking noted by The Lancet way back in 1927. In an article titled “The Psychology of Antivaccination” the prestigious medical journal commented on the passion of anti-vaccinators in terms that apply with eerie resonance to modern climate science denial.

It noted that the value and limitations of vaccination against smallpox had been thoroughly researched and understood by scientific medicine, and yet it went on to add:

“We still meet the belief … that vaccination is a gigantic fraud deliberately perpetuated for the sake of gain… The opposition to vaccination … still retains the ‘all or none’ quality of primitive behaviour and, like many emotional reactions, is supported by a wealth of argument which the person reacting honestly believes to be the logical foundation of his behaviour.”
The anti-immunisation brigade is still at it, yet giant strides have nevertheless been made in protecting public health. There is no such luxury in the case of climate change, and it is the anti-environmental paranoia of men like Abbott and Newman, and Andrew Bolt and George Pell, that endangers the health of our planet.
 
Wouldnt the point of getting a child vaccinated be to prevent them from getting sick while in contact with those who did not? Something like a flu vaccine is optimistic at best- introduce virus, body fights virus with antibodies, body associates virus with established antibodies.. is it truly that bad to get the flu? not when i was growing up and that was 10 years ago.
 
Last edited:
If the earth heats up only 4 degrees, we'll all wear T-shirts more in winter. I've experienced warm and even hot days before, I go swimming and shoot more heroin, what's the big deal? /sarcasm
 
Top