MAOIs: Opening a new spectre of psychoactives?

[Visitor Q]

Taken from a FAQ on DMT and Ayahuasca:

"In the presence of an MAO inhibitor many substances which are ordinarily non-active because of their swift metabolism may become potent psychoactive drugs. The phenomenon may create a new series of mind alterants. However, because of the complex and precarious variables involved, it is risky and foolish for anyone to experiment with these possibilities on the non-professional level."

Does anyone have an example of such a substance, that ordinarily would not be a psychoactive but becomes one when combined with an MAOI ?

 

[DXMkid420]

great question, i would love to know myself

 

[greenmeanies]

DMT.

normally dmt is destroyed by Mono-Amine-Oxidase in the gut, making it orally inactive.

ayahuasca combines an MAOI (to Inhibit this reaction) and DMT to make an orally active psychedelic brew.

geez.

edit: if you don't know anything about MAOIs, you should know this: they are EXTREMELY POWERFUL MEDICINE AND CAN KILL YOU IN COMBINATION WITH A WIDE VARIETY OF COMPOUNDS. in general, you MUST AVOID stimulants (amp, meth, mdma, etc) or die. DMT is one of the VERY FEW chemicals that are SAFE for combination with an MAOI. Consult your physician if taking ANY other medications.

 

[Eldaren]

^^^

unless im reading this wrong, im pretty sure its plainly obvious that he meant "other than dmt"

 

[greenmeanies]

um, not really. if there were, you would see them in that faq.

psilocin and many other tryptamines can be safely combined with an MAOI to produce a qualitatively different and quantitatively 2-3x more potent psychedelic experience.
but those compounds are already psychedelic on their own.

the only other compounds that are "activated" by combination with MAOI are the ones that will kill you.

and some people say that if you take an MAOI and high amounts of tryptophan (tryptamine source) and SAMe (methyl source) you can trip on your naturally produced DMT. personally I have never seen this successfully reproduced.

 

[Eldaren]

because you know the effect of every single chemical on this planet and how it reacts with an MAO inhibitor? wow, you sure are an impressive guy.

 

[greenmeanies]

i don't claim to know every chemical, especially chemicals which haven't been imagined or studied.

mono-amine-oxidase is a very well-studied enzyme in the human body. it is a common target for pharmaceutical MAOI drugs because modern medicine KNOWS that MAO-a and MAO-b are responsible for the in-vivo degradation of monoamines (like adrenaline, serotonin, dopamine, etc).

try reading most drug facts for OTC and prescription chemicals, most warn you to consult a doctor if you are taking an MAOI before combining them. some chemicals WILL KILL YOU when your MAO is Inhibited. other chemicals will not be affected by MAO in the first place, so their combination with an MAOI will not change the effect of the chemical.

 

[Eldaren]

im sure they will. i never said they wouldnt, in fact i know they do. always have since before i ever took any sort of drug.

my problem lies in statements like these: "the only other compounds that are "activated" by combination with MAOI are the ones that will kill you."

speaking in definites on a subject which you cant possibly know the definite answer for? nice.

 

[greenmeanies]

ok, the only other compounds that i have read about that are activated by combination with MAOI are the ones that will kill you.

the simple fact of the matter is that MAOIs should NOT be taken lightly in order to "trip". they can have serious complications with several popular recreational drugs, and this is a harm reduction site. let the professionals look for good MAOI combinations, because offering yourself as a guinea pig is a very bad idea.

 

[Mercury (Hg)]

Taken from a FAQ on DMT and Ayahuasca:

"In the presence of an MAO inhibitor many substances which are ordinarily non-active because of their swift metabolism may become potent psychoactive drugs. The phenomenon may create a new series of mind alterants. However, because of the complex and precarious variables involved, it is risky and foolish for anyone to experiment with these possibilities on the non-professional level."

Does anyone have an example of such a substance, that ordinarily would not be a psychoactive but becomes one when combined with an MAOI ?

There are psychoactives left to be discovered that work in and of themselves.

Although this is something else I've wondered. Maybe certain drugs are active only after a relatively high threshold that's never been attempted before.

 

[Visitor Q]

DMT.

normally dmt is destroyed by Mono-Amine-Oxidase in the gut, making it orally inactive.

ayahuasca combines an MAOI (to Inhibit this reaction) and DMT to make an orally active psychedelic brew.

geez.

edit: if you don't know anything about MAOIs, you should know this: they are EXTREMELY POWERFUL MEDICINE AND CAN KILL YOU IN COMBINATION WITH A WIDE VARIETY OF COMPOUNDS. in general, you MUST AVOID stimulants (amp, meth, mdma, etc) or die. DMT is one of the VERY FEW chemicals that are SAFE for combination with an MAOI. Consult your physician if taking ANY other medications.

Wow, this guy didn't get the idea at all.

Read the question carefully:

"Does anyone have an example of such a substance, that ordinarily would not be a psychoactive but becomes one when combined with an MAOI ?"

So DMT is not psychoactive by itself? What if I smoke it?
(I know it's not active by itself orally, I am familiar with the concept of Ayahuasca)

I mean compounds, alkaloids which normally HAVE NO PSYCHOACTIVE EFFECT.

 

[solistus]

I can't imagine MAOIs making a completely inactive compound active by any mechanism all that different from DMT. What MAO inhibitors do is inhibit monoamine oxidases - important natural enzymes that process many natural and synthetic drugs. This allows oral DMT to be active when MAOs would normally break it down long before it passed the BBB in any significant quantity. With some compounds it's very dangerous because it prevents them from being metabolised when they need to be - some otherwise quite benign compounds can seem nasty indeed when they can't be metabolised for days, sometimes weeks with some synthetic 'irreversible' MAOIs - natural/reversible MAOIs sort of flip an off switch while they're active... irreversible MAOIs basically destroy any MAO that exists when they're ingested and in some cases for as much as a couple weeks after taking one. Personally, I think those using them to potentiate psychedelics are far less irresponsible than the so-called mental health professionals giving them out like candy, often for purely psychological issues better solved with therapy/analysis or even drugs and a good venting session than being numbed 24/7 by pharmies... Then again, the pharmaceutical industry keeps a select few worthwhile drugs flowing, and it's unlikely nearly as many of us would be acquainted with opioids and/or benzos, to name a few pharmaceutical marvels, without their lovely little drug racket. I just wish psychedelic vendors could have it so sweet, getting the government to spend its time worrying about whether its agencies should have the right to even negotiate the prices _they_ pay to mr. dealer man instead of whether or not to schedule x "new" RC yet

At any rate, I assume inhibiting MAOs is the likely cause of any interaction with another drug, from the enjoyable to the fatal. Personally, the only thing that would really even tempt me to consider MAOs is ayahuasca. I don't know of any specific interactions between any MAOI and another drug that is not based on that mechanism. I do know that some MAOIs, at least, seem to be psychoactive on their own at high enough doses. Having never tried any of them at any dose, I can't say much more. Any drug with that many potentially dangerous interactions needs to be part of a damn valuable experience to be worth it. If I have to start worrying about eating too much cheese because MAOIs inhibit digestion or whatnot... Well, until I have an opportunity to perform in a serious ayahuasca ritual or something like that, I don't see myself trying them anytime soon. Hell, I haven't even tried smoked DMT yet (no reservations there, it's just hard to find and I haven't motivated myself to do an extraction just yet)... Still, I'm always curious.


sidenote - I bet only druggies and maybe scientists and medical professionals in a handful of related fields see BBB and think 'blood-brain barrier' before 'Better Business Bureau'.

 

[Visitor Q]

I can't imagine MAOIs making a completely inactive compound active by any mechanism all that different from DMT. What MAO inhibitors do is inhibit monoamine oxidases - important natural enzymes that process many natural and synthetic drugs.

Thank you, finally a response to my question.
This was also my understanding of the mechanisms of Mono-amine Oxidase.

Basically, any drug injected IV that has no psychoactivity that way is very unlikely to be psychoactive in any other way, even with an MAOI.

Would this be safe to say?

 

[Ismene]

MAOI's have a dramatic effect on mushrooms - they turn a shroom trip into pretty much a DMT trip. But the tolerance is very long - you need to leave at least 2-4 weeks between trips (preferably months to get the full DMT trip that lasts for 5 hours).

 

[Mjäll]

the only other compounds that are "activated" by combination with MAOI are the ones that will kill you.

What?

You're saying it's theoretically impossible for any other substance than DMT to be activated by MAOi without killing you?

Or are you saying you've researched every psychoactive compound ever?

On topic: I don't know any such substance but I'm eager to know. Perhaps something in the line of myristicin or other plant oils?

 

[solistus]

I certainly believe that are psychoactives in nature that are not well known at least to Western science if not humanity in general. Maybe some of them are only orally active with an MAOI. Maybe, like DMT, most of those drugs would potentially be active with a suitably direct ROA that bypasses first pass metabolism (IV, IM, insufflation, etc.). Probably, in my opinion, but I'm no expert.

I've heard MAOIs intensify tryptamines like crazy, but I've never heard that it turns mushrooms into a 5 hour trip to hyperspace! Do you think 4-aco would be similar?

 

[greenmeanies]

What?

You're saying it's theoretically impossible for any other substance than DMT to be activated by MAOi without killing you?

Or are you saying you've researched every psychoactive compound ever?

On topic: I don't know any such substance but I'm eager to know. Perhaps something in the line of myristicin or other plant oils?

um, no. I was saying EXACTLY what solistus was saying.

it is theoretically possible (and proven) than MAOI will orally activate drugs that are usually inactive orally (DMT, 5-MeO-DMT). But these drugs are already active when insufflated, injected, or vaporized so the MAOI is only protecting the drug from metabolism in the gut.

MAO enzyme is specifically focused on destroying monoamine neurotransmitters so they do not build up and cause a toxic reaction.

if a drug is not metabolized by MAO, then the drug will not see any change when combined with an MAOI. it's that simple.

since MAO is present mainly in the gut to protect us from exogenous neurotansmitters (tyramine etc), it stands to reason that drugs that are not active via IV/insufflation will not suddenly become active when combined with an MAOI.

solistus: i would bet good money on 4-aco-DMT being wildly potentiated by oral MAOI. from my own experiences with syrian rue + psilocybe shrooms, the trip is qualitatively much more intense than standard shrooms, and quantitatively requires about 1/3 to 1/2 the usual shroom material. if you combine your usual dose of 4-sub-T with an oral MAOI, be prepared for a 4-6 hour fully immersive time-travel experience. the drop back to baseline is very abrupt as well, one minute you are in space and the next you are staring at the wall wondering how you managed to reassemble your brain in one piece.

 

[egor]

2c-f could possibly be active with an maoi.

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

I've heard MAOIs intensify tryptamines like crazy, but I've never heard that it turns mushrooms into a 5 hour trip to hyperspace!

ive done it

it just makes the mushrooms really really crazy

but it's still shrooms

 

[swilow]

^What MAOi source? Caapi on its own is a nice experience....

I'd wager PEA is ORALLY active with a MAO-b inhibitor.