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LSD Purity and Effects

The main issue nowadays isn't purity, it's misreporting of doses - e.g. blotters advertised as 125ug only being 75-80ug. The ~50ug makes a fair difference effects wise.

Agreed.

And such differences between the stated and actual dose are, in my opinion, a major reason for why people tend to assume they were being affected by "dirty" LSD - if a blotter is underdosed, the physical aspects of the LSD experience become more pronounced, whereas at higher doses the user tends to be fully engaged with the mental and visual aspects of the trip. Likewise, if there is 100 micrograms of "LSD" present, but a significant amount of those 100 micrograms is iso-LSD, it is going to have a more pronounced bodyload relative to the mental effects; not because the iso-LSD is actively causing the body load, but because there is a relative lack of the psychoactive isomer to keep you engaged with the headspace and the visuals.

Regarding impurities. While they might not be active on their own, that's not to say they become active when ingested in combination with LSD or affect how LSD reacts with the brain.

The chances of finding a compound that's active at a dose in the low microgram range is already pretty small. The chances that it would be active *only* when combined with psychedelics (and not at all when not on a psychedelic) are even smaller.
If iso-LSD is supposed to be active at less than 40 micrograms when combined with LSD, shouldn't there be *some* level of activity at an insane overdosage of 4000 micrograms? If it were, for example, a 5HT2A antagonist, then one would at the very least expect it to be sedating, for example.
It's not like Hofmann and Shulgin were the only people interested in the activity of LSD's isomers and analogues - while not everyone may have seen the potential of psychedelic therapy, ergoline-based pharmaceuticals did represent a pretty massive commercial market at one point, being used in the treatment of Parkinson's disease, migraines/cluster headaches and post-childbirth vaginal bleeding, so many of these compounds were being screened for their pharmacological activity.

This is where I like to apply Occam's Razor, i.e. the principle that one should go with the hypothesis that involves the fewest/smallest assumptions.
iso-LSD being active in the low-microgram range in a way that has not yet been noticed using various in-vitro/in-vivo/human assays is already a pretty big assumption; the reason for this being that it only becomes active in conjunction with a psychedelic is an even bigger assumption.
The placebo effect being a powerful phenomenon, though? I think that's been proven pretty conclusively over and over and over again in medical research. Psychedelics increasing suggestibility, and consequently also the impact of the placebo effect? Also not exactly a major assumption.

People sometimes interpret the idea of falling victim to the placebo effect as a sort of personal insult to their intelligence, which it really isn't. If psychological/pharmacological research has taught us anything, it's that personal reports should always be taken with atleast a grain of salt, even if they're coming from oneself. Researchers have devoted *a lot* of time coming up with things like double-blind studies to minimize the impact of the placebo effect, because they are well-aware they cannot fully trust themselves or their colleagues, no matter how smart or honest they may be.

Shulgin was a genuine chemist, I'm sure he would certainly encourage avoiding impurities and refining chemicals to their highest purity. But that's not to say he still wouldn't have ingested them on their own to investigate.

Obviously, yes. One of the main reasons he worked on what would eventually become PIHKAL was that a compound that was highly active due to a high selectivity for the desired neurological targets would be less likely to have harmful side-effects due to unwanted metabolites, byproducts or activity at undesirable target sites.
However, he would probably also have encouraged people to be skeptical of claims regarding purity that come from their drug dealer, especially if they come associated with vaguely defined marketing terms ("yeah no this is totally 99.998% pure golden needlefluff, dude!") and with bold claims regarded the drug's activity, which might influence the trip via the placebo effect.

I also notice Tihkal waters down a lot of reports, some psychedelics which are very active or excellent psychedelics are reported not to be. I think this is with good reason.

Wait, you mean Shulgin is trying to keep the psychedelic activity of these compounds a secret? So other people will not bother synthesizing these compounds, thus not bringing them to the government's attention, and Shulgin can keep them a secret between himself and his friends? That doesn't really sound like Shulgin at all. I mean, why publish TIHKAL/PIHKAL in the first place, then?

If you're referring to DOT/Aleph-1 (although that was in PIHKAL rather than TIHKAL), he did write down in his notebook how it was "the essence of power" and to "tell no one". Except he did tell people after all, dedicating a chapter in PIHKAL to the trip report.

In the chapter detailing the compound's synthesis, he describes the aforementioned trip report as "important in that gives an interesting example of some thought processes associated with psychedelic intoxication, ego-inflation, and what might be thought of as bits of mania." Shulgin was obviously pretty hyped about working on DOT due to it being the first in a family of psychedelic compounds switching out an oxygen atom with a sulphur atom, and he when talks about the stimulation he felt during his first trial of the substance at a dose of 250 nanograms (with a normal dose later being determined to be 5-10mg, i.e. 5-10 *million* nanograms), he specifically states that any activity he might have felt at such a low dose was "certainly all placebo response".

So let that sink in for a while: Even someone as smart and well-versed in the world of psychedelics as Alexander Shulgin fully accepted that he could be rendered susceptible to ego-inflation and mania during a psychedelic experience, and that he certainly wasn't above being affected by the placebo effect.
 
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So many smart asses talking out of their ass as usually.
Have you ever even had lsd crystals and handled them?

Why is needlepoint more expensive then the cheaper stuff?
Why is it more potent per weight with different effects?

You dont know cause you are speculating about something you dont have a clue about.
Im not claiming i know what is true, im just stating facts and having an open mind about it.
Placebo might be a factor, but it doesnt explain why people who doesn't know which acid is needlepoint but still prefer it over the cheap stuff.

Dose is a factor but not really, ive had cheap super potent Alex Grey hits which were very strong but put you in a mental rollercoaster if you took over 300ug.
Then ive taken my grateful dead needlepoint at over 500ug and only had the good visual and emotionall high which you want.
No loops and confusion at all.
 
Yes once really briefly like in 2006 or 2007. I got to try it once at 3.5mg and found the state weird and slightly unpleasant, but I might have underdosed. I put it off for a while, and then when I went back to try it again, even though I had kept the 1mg/mL solution in the fridge, it had turned brown and nasty-looking (with a weird slimy looking solid in it). Really bummed me out. I had like 30-40mg to work with.
 
So many smart asses talking out of their ass as usually.
Have you ever even had lsd crystals and handled them?

Why is needlepoint more expensive then the cheaper stuff?
Why is it more potent per weight with different effects?

You dont know cause you are speculating about something you dont have a clue about.
Im not claiming i know what is true, im just stating facts and having an open mind about it.
Placebo might be a factor, but it doesnt explain why people who doesn't know which acid is needlepoint but still prefer it over the cheap stuff.

Dose is a factor but not really, ive had cheap super potent Alex Grey hits which were very strong but put you in a mental rollercoaster if you took over 300ug.
Then ive taken my grateful dead needlepoint at over 500ug and only had the good visual and emotionall high which you want.
No loops and confusion at all.
I had taken some impure crystal before and it just confusion during the come up and god help you if you taken a large dose of it cause hours of loops are going to fuck your head up. The cleanest needlepoint crystal i dosed at 500ug was cleaner than my other trips at lower doses but still alot more visually and emotional just had the pure clean clear lsd headspace where it makes you like your have unlocked your mind and you can do anything. LSD at its best quality is the shit that created silicon valley. Its suppose to be so clear your actually smarter on it instead of getting trapped in loops and confusion due to impure lower quality lsd.
 
I was just reading about 2C-I on drugs-forum... sounds like what that was. Said it lasts 4-6 hours which I now remember as being what it was for us. We would take it after school and be fine later in the evening. When taking LSD the trip was much longer. I would always make sure to trip with friends that would stay out till you came down. Coming home while ur still triping sucked...

If it was the early 80's, there's a good chance it was indeed 2C-I or 2C-B (personally, I consider the latter more likely). A DOx, on the other hand, seems highly unlikely because these tend to have *very* long half-lives.

2C-B was originally discovered in the 1970's, and apparently it didn't take too long for it to make its way onto the street, where it was sometimes sold as "bromo-mescaline" due to its structural relationship to mescaline. It experienced a particular surge in popularity when MDMA got banned in 1985, and 2C-B was seen as a then-legal alternative.
 
Now that LSZ and AL-LAD have hit the market, I suspect that real LSD will become exceedingly rare. -__- It's easy for anyone with experience to distinguish NBOMe blotters from acid, but LSD analogues? Probably a lot more difficult.

LSZ and/or AL-LAD might be wonderful drugs, maybe better than LSD, but it's unfortunate that people who don't wish to be the guinea pigs for untested drugs will probably wind up playing that role anyhow.
Amazing how that worked out, right? LSZ and AL-LAD are pretty much gone and LSD is everywhere. Like it has been for a long time and ain't going anywhere any time soon.
 
Amazing how that worked out, right? LSZ and AL-LAD are pretty much gone and LSD is everywhere. Like it has been for a long time and ain't going anywhere any time soon.

Nothing "amazing" about that, just basic chemistry and economics.

LSZ and AL-LAD are both significantly harder to synthesize than LSD (the easiest synth for AL-LAD uses LSD as a precursor), so you've got greatly reduced yields, *and* both LSZ and AL-LAD are less potent than LSD-25 to begin with.

If I recall correctly, just a few years ago David E. Nichols gave a talk in which he doubted we'd ever even see AL-LAD or ETH-LAD being sold as a psychedelic on the grey or black market.

The reason the NBOMe's were so popular was that they were easy as hell to make by comparison, and thus also had huge profit margins. If you can source the precursors for a 2C-x, you can make the corresponding 25x-NBOME, which will easily be around 20 times as potent by weight as its parent drug. Compare that to trying to get your hands on ergotamine or even lysergic acid, only to make a product that's less potent and has a lower yield than LSD.
 
It really does not matter how many micrograms that dosage unit is.
It is what kind of processed, filtered, and quality of raw LSD is in the tube before laying the crystal onto WoW.

Are You familiar with different qualities and 'types' of LSD?

There seems to be a much 'heavier' feeling with lower quality crystals.
 
LSZ and AL-LAD are both significantly harder to synthesize than LSD (the easiest synth for AL-LAD uses LSD as a precursor), so you've got greatly reduced yields, *and* both LSZ and AL-LAD are less potent than LSD-25 to begin with.
Indeed. Direct from the main global source "Catalog" haha, it still cracks me up to think that such a thing even exists in this world:

Discontinued for the forseeable future
Notes: Due to extremely low yields, we cannot continue production until a new route is developed
 
LSZ?
You've got to tell Me about that one, Mate.

I've read that synthesizing LSD is much more difficult to convert into a solid, analgesic;
than any other lysergimide [i.e. ETH-LAD, 1P-LSD...etc.].

LSD-25 is the most pure lysergimide One can possess or come across.
All others are may not even be considered 'enthoegenic' or have certain effects that people look for in LSD-25.

Classic psychedelics like Psilocybin containing mushrooms, LSD-25, mescaline, peyote, and natural occuring DMT are what You are looking for.
I would stay away and be weary of these unknown compounds that are not LSD -25.
 
LSZ?
You've got to tell Me about that one, Mate.

I've read that synthesizing LSD is much more difficult to convert into a solid, analgesic;
than any other lysergimide [i.e. ETH-LAD, 1P-LSD...etc.].

LSD-25 is the most pure lysergimide One can possess or come across.
All others are may not even be considered 'enthoegenic' or have certain effects that people look for in LSD-25.

Classic psychedelics like Psilocybin containing mushrooms, LSD-25, mescaline, peyote, and natural occuring DMT are what You are looking for.
I would stay away and be weary of these unknown compounds that are not LSD -25.
Bias?

Pure? Most pure? Dude if something is pure and is not up your alley it doesn't change the quality of the chemist making it.
 
LSZ?
You've got to tell Me about that one, Mate.

I've read that synthesizing LSD is much more difficult to convert into a solid, analgesic;
than any other lysergimide [i.e. ETH-LAD, 1P-LSD...etc.].

As far as I know, LSZ (lysergic acid 2,4 dimethylazetidide) was designed as a conformationally constrained, chiral compound to elucidate how the diethylamide moiety on LSD-25 fits into the 5HT2a receptor. Needless to say, LSZ (more specifically its most active (S,S) isomer) is a *very* challenging synthesis, significantly more so than LSD-25. In terms of human use, Leonard Pickard supposedly evaluated a small batch of it, and the same people that brought AL-LAD to the masses also sold a batch of it as a research chemical. However, both of them came to the conclusion that it was just not worth the trouble of synthesizing it.

ETH-LAD is a very hard synthesis. The "easiest" way of producing it would be to use LSD-25 as a starting material. ETH-LAD is, therefore, by definition significantly harder to make than LSD. Ditto for AL-LAD.
Making ALD-52 or 1P likewise requires an extra step when compared to LSD. So, again, these compounds are by definition slightly harder to make than LSD.

LSD-25 is the most pure lysergimide One can possess or come across.

Didn't you just claim that synthesizing LSD is harder than synthing other lysergamides? Wouldn't that suggest that getting it purified is also harder, and consequently other (easier to make) lysergamides would typically be more pure? At this point, I am getting the impression that your idea of "purity" is more based on abstract esoteric concepts rather than an actual understanding of chemistry.

Also LSD-25 is not a lysergimide, as I keep trying to tell you. "imide" - "amide". Those are two different words, meaning two different things. LSD-25 is a lysergamide, not a lysergimide.

All others are may not even be considered 'enthoegenic' or have certain effects that people look for in LSD-25.

Classic psychedelics like Psilocybin containing mushrooms, LSD-25, mescaline, peyote, and natural occuring DMT are what You are looking for.
I would stay away and be weary of these unknown compounds that are not LSD -25.

LSD-25 is not a naturally occuring substance. It was made by chemically cleaving ergotamine, and converting the resulting lysergic acid into an acyl azide or acyl chloride intermediate using highly toxic reagents. So why is LSD-25 ok, but non-naturally occuring DMT is not?

Also, not everyone is looking for the same things in a psychedelic. I, for one, do not feel the need to converse with entities that, over the course of thousands of years, could never be bothered to transmit such as elemental truths as "locking away your daughter for having her period is a dick move, bro!", so no, I do not desire any "entheogenic" effect.

The moment when coming up on 225 micrograms of 1P-ETH-LAD hit my mind like a freight train, and the wondrous and beautifully warped sights I saw on 125 micrograms of ETH-LAD, would go on to change me forever (and, as far as I can tell, actually for the better). Ditto for the experiences I've had on 2C-E.

Discounting these technological marvels is, in my opinion, pretty narrow-minded.
 
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Classic psychedelics like Psilocybin containing mushrooms, LSD-25, mescaline, peyote, and natural occuring DMT are what You are looking for.
.......
Why post mescaline and peyote as separate entries?
Peyote is the cacti that contains Mescaline, the only difference really is that consuming the plant is known to cause nausea.
 
It is how it is consumed and handled, really.


Mescaline and Peyote technically are two different things.
But yes, I agree with You.
 
It is how it is consumed and handled, really.


Mescaline and Peyote technically are two different things.
But yes, I agree with You.

I agree that for some, seeing the actual cactus rather than pure crystal will give a different mindset that will alter the experience.
 
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