LSD - does anyone agree? (argument about LSD being unhealthy)

[whiteroom67]

"LSD is not healthy and frankly, when you begin to really understand it, then you learn that it is a less interesting way to experience life, it deprives the mind, and in the long term has negative effects, like confusion and depression, that need to be disclosed at all times."

Does anyone agree?

The purpose is to receive the mind of fellow Bluelighters and deserves to remain open on the same basis that any question would remain open that may still be answered.

I do not agree. I along with many others I know both personally and through forums such as these who have used LSD safely and responsibly can be said have benefited from its use. i.e. more creativity, more open-mindedness towards people, more open to different types of ideas, changed perspectives on events in life that allowed us to learn a better way of looking at things, hence helping us to become smarter, stronger people, not to mention an increased spiritual type of awareness that is hard to put into words. I have of course had some bad trips which yes, had temporarily made me feel slightly anxious, depressed or uneasy for awhile... that is, until I was able to figure out why it made me feel that way, after which those negative feelings would soon fade and I would then as a result ultimately become more aware of myself... a better, wiser version of myself. I understood an aspect of myself or my life that made initially made me feel uneasy, until I was either able to change it or accept it. It is one's own mind that creates the reality they live in. Any intense event in one's life - involving psychedelics or not, is likely to trigger a change in perception, thoughts, emotions, or whatever. Taking a chance with a romantic relationship and allowing yourself to become so emotionally vulnerable with another person allows for just a great a chance of triggering mental and emotional issues if something goes wrong as does an intense LSD trip.

I had the feeling like I was missing some functional piece of my mind: forming complex thoughts, dealing with plans. It was a long time ago and persisted a depressing amount if time; benzos helped turn it around.

This state of mind was something I hoped would not be permanent, and it turned out not to be, but it did last for years. It followed a break and a brief period of some delusions and problematic auditory hallucinations.

I think it would be close minded to pass off the problem in my head with my issues with self esteem, friends, parents, grades; it was easy enough to work through those issues and no amount of resolving those demons seemed to solve the problem. It seemed to have no logic.

I experienced some auditory events as a young adult and in my childhood, hearing music possibly and definitely hearing my name being called in the hallway. I had an active mind, full of thoughts. After my awakening/break there was, all at once, only calmness. This is something I had desired.

There was certainly an openness to subconcious thoughts, bordering on clairvoyance (I guess), but all this was paired with a definite repression of my own voluntary thinking. That was a serious issue.

There certainly was stress in my life and that can be a trigger for schizophrenia. The mental depression seemed to persist a requisite amount of time to fit, although I am not overly familiar with the typical characteristics of schizophrenia. Since I had also recently begun heavy use of psychedelics, to say they were not involved seems an obvious error. To conclude that I was only speeding up the process... nah... it is insulting to label myself schizophrenic and say I have beaten schizophrenia.

But the question is related to a general feeling about the changes I believe occur in users of LSD, thinking becomes sloppy.

The point of this thread is confirming that Bluelighters are defensive of LSD.

It seems that most bluelighters are defensive of LSD because they have in some way benefited from its use and your personal perspective of LSD users developing "sloppy thoughts" is an entirely subjective one with no scientific or empirical basis, but is clearly a way of taking your own experience and projecting it onto others experiences, thus doing nothing but tainting your beliefs with biased views of the potential effects of LSD, and making a blanket statement for all others. Perhaps for you, it was a negative reaction, due to some possible issues you seem to have experienced psychologically in your life, as it is certainly true that not all people should be users of psychedelics - for some certain people, yes, it can be dangerous and unhealthy, especially those with underlying mental conditions, or those whose lives are not suited to the thoughts, feelings and experiences one inevitably perceives when using psychedelics, including but not limited to LSD. I am certainly not a licensed psychologist, but you stating that at one point you would experience delusions and auditory hallucinations would hint to me that you are quite possibly one of these people; unless those experiences were caused by a break from benzos and hence benzo withdrawal - but nonetheless, if you had psychological issues that needed to be addressed with benzos, then it seems the same point proves itself in any case. However, research itself has shown that any stressful or major event in one's life can trigger a latent psychological illness such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder to become active, as can use of a psychedelic. Ballz_Trippington's comparable comment about some people not being able to handle alcohol i.e. punching holes in the walls after 4 beers is a very valid statement. For some people the substance is compatible, for others it is not. Therefore, making a blanket statement such as LSD and/or other psychedelics are unhealthy and dangerous for all is inaccurate, invalid, irresponsible and completely unfounded due to lack of consistent outcomes involving various users of different genetic and/or experiential backgrounds. There is really no more to be said regarding this matter and I too agree that the thread remaining open would no longer serve purpose as there is really nothing more to debate about.

 

[Hallucinogens R US]

I strongly believe that LSD had the most profound effect on me so far compared to any of the other psychedelics I've indulged in, and helped me get through many anxieties I was going through

 

[pmoseman]

I was not using benzos.

It would be reasonable to assume all the same things about your positive experience as you have about my negative, other than it seems people have more positive outcomes to talk about. That probably has more to do with people wanting positive outcomes than anything to do with the LSD, as well as being more able and willing to talk about it.

As far as the research concluding psychosis is the result of underlying conditions. While I am sure there is some reason adversity strikes a percent of people and not the other percent, that risk is not figured out.

As far as sloppy thinking, it seems you aren't open to the thought of it.

 

[pmoseman]

I strongly believe that LSD had the most profound effect on me so far compared to any of the other psychedelics I've indulged in, and helped me get through many anxieties I was going through

That is good. Were the anxieties chemical or psychological and once they were resolved did you continue using the drug?

 

[whiteroom67]

I was not using benzos.

It would be reasonable to assume all the same things about your positive experience as you have about my negative, other than it seems people have more positive outcomes to talk about. That probably has more to do with people wanting positive outcomes than anything to do with the LSD, as well as being more able and willing to talk about it.

As far as the research concluding psychosis is the result of underlying conditions. While I am sure there is some reason adversity strikes a percent of people and not the other percent, that risk is not figured out.

As far as sloppy thinking, it seems you aren't open to the thought of it.

From your post, it sounded like you said you were using benzos for a period of time.

It's not that I'm not open to the idea of LSD causing sloppy thinking, it's just that I have neither seen, experienced nor seen any research or evidence at all in any way shape or form, personally or otherwise, suggesting that LSD use alone in and of itself causes "sloppy thinking" - whatever that really means... It just seems to me that that's what you're claiming and/or assuming LSD does. Therefore it seems more to me that you are not open to the idea of LSD NOT causing sloppy thinking than anything else.

You are right though about the importance of having a positive mindset going into an LSD experience, in order to actually have a positive experience. That factor can't be emphasized enough. If one is going to do LSD, having a positive outlook, for whatever reason, is of paramount importance to getting the most one can out of an ordeal.

 

[whiteroom67]

I strongly believe that LSD had the most profound effect on me so far compared to any of the other psychedelics I've indulged in, and helped me get through many anxieties I was going through

Its true for me too, at least with LSD compared to psilocybin. LSD definitely seems to have more of a long-term and profound effect for me than psilocybin. It's hard to say whether my changes were chemical or psychological... I would think it's impossible to say for sure without clinical research to back either claim up. However for me at least, it seems in a way they were codependent and influential on each other in a way. For me, I have used since then, but only once I felt it was the right time. There were times I felt I had to wait quite awhile until I had first integrated my last experience before embarking on a new one.

 

[spacejunk]

That is good. Were the anxieties chemical or psychological and once they were resolved did you continue using the drug?

How does one differentiate between "psychological" and "chemical" anxiety?
Defining terms such as these - and how they relate to the "subject" of this thread (one woman's speculative, pseudo-babble infused 'crusade' [religious connotation of 'crusade' needs to be emphasised] to save us sinners from ourselves - and "evil" drugs]).

There is enough delusional nonsense posted on bluelight, in my opnion.
But I can see the value of this thread in focusing the OP's attentions in her own thread rather than derailing half a dozen others across the boards.
There is value in this line of discussion, sure - but this thread seems to be going around and around in circles with a lot of passive-aggressive baiting and responses - and a fairly patronising vibe on either side.
I'm not in any position to contradict Solipsis' post, above. I think the "point" has been fairly extensively articulated from the relevant angles - but no resolution seems likely. Or "conversion", for that matter It seems like agreeing to disagree and moving on is sometimes the most sensible option for harmonious discussion?
Lest it turns into more of a slanging match.

...In which case - it could be sent to the Lounge , for serious analysis and discussion, no?

 

[pmoseman]

I should say taking a Benzo helped. I never took them serially.

I was not talking about having a positive mindset. I am talking about optimism in the research and generally in the human condition. You call it an ordeal and I am sure you know what that word means. Afterwards, people give ordeals positive attributes. We take a highly optimistic view of our history.

I also think you could be more aware of the sloppy thinking. There are numerous discussions/research on the strange beliefs LSD users develop.

For the record, I never had any "ordeal" whilst tripping and I would guess I had all the positive attitude one could hope for, perhaps foolhardily.

My problems started when I stopped using drugs. It was an experiment of sorts and I felt like I discovered something deeper about LSD. It was quite damaging.

I don't like the idea of optimism and happiness as the end all/be all. Those are the chains that keep us bound to the fear of loss, which leads to the rejection of unconventional ideas. If LSD is only forcing one to further bury their head deeper into such comforts, to enslave the mind and attack free will, then it is not good.

The idea that we create our own reality, that whatever comes out of an experiment is evident because it is what I was hoping to find, that defeats reason. I have no problem with defeating reason of course, but then why are you to talking about research and having an opinion about drugs? What are drugs then?

 

[pmoseman]

How does one differentiate between "psychological" and "chemical" anxiety?
Defining terms such as these - and how they relate to the "subject" of this thread (one woman's speculative, pseudo-babble infused 'crusade' [religious connotation of 'crusade' needs to be emphasised] to save us sinners from ourselves - and "evil" drugs]).

There is enough delusional nonsense posted on bluelight, in my opnion.
But I can see the value of this thread in focusing the OP's attentions in her own thread rather than derailing half a dozen others across the boards.
There is value in this line of discussion, sure - but this thread seems to be going around and around in circles with a lot of passive-aggressive baiting and responses - and a fairly patronising vibe on either side.
I'm not in any position to contradict Solipsis' post, above. I think the "point" has been fairly extensively articulated from the relevant angles - but no resolution seems likely. Or "conversion", for that matter It seems like agreeing to disagree and moving on is sometimes the most sensible option for harmonious discussion?
Lest it turns into more of a slanging match.

...In which case - it could be sent to the Lounge , for serious analysis and discussion, no?

 

[whiteroom67]

Pman, you seem to be looking wayyy too deep into the use of my word "ordeal", dude, along with almost everything else that I and everyone else has said. After reading back through the past few pages again, it's obvious to me now that you are taking literally almost everything I and everyone else is saying and twisting it and off-shooting it into something that doesn't seem to have anything to do with what was originally being addressed in the comments previous. Regardless of what I or anyone else says, you seem to be picking out statements and adding strange, meaningless euphemisms to them just to argue against us and any potential healthy use of LSD... For example, how having a positive outlook contributes to the fear of loss, and thus LSD use backed with a positive mindset contributes to hiding oneself in delusions of comfort and a rejection of unconventional ideas? Where does thinking like that even come from? You seem to think and speak in a strange way that is difficult to connect to and understand. Im sorry, but straight up, it really just seems you're making stuff up off the top of your head just to argue for the sake of arguing. I totally agree with spacejunk and don't really see the point in continuing this conversation... hence I feel the thread should at this point either be closed, or continued with a more serious and sensible connotation in mind, though it's true, everyone is different and agreeing to disagree seems to be the only end for a discussion that cant really be conclusively resolved.

 

[pmoseman]

Opening the dictionary is really that deep?
...
...
...
You already felt that way 8 comments ago.

I can appreciate your frustration. Perhaps after a few days rest you can try again.

 

[whiteroom67]

I'm well aware of what the word "ordeal" means pman. Not every trip turns into an "ordeal", but those that do, yeah, it can be and should be looked at as a positive experience. What are your other choices, wallow in self-despair and tell yourself how horrible of an experience it was over and over again? Or, choose to forget it and reject what it could have had the potential to teach you? Or maybe, just maybe... face the discomfort, learn from it, find the positive potential in it and use it to grow. The concept shouldn't be difficult to understand. Any ordeal in life is positive if you are able to look into it, drug-related or not, and an LSD "ordeal" is no exception. It has nothing to do with choosing to hide in comfort... on the contrary, it is in fact the exact opposite - facing any discomfort you may experience, resulting from a change in perception or not, learning to understand it, and ultimately growing from it - using it to become a better person - THAT is freeing your mind from the slavery of the mind's presets and therefore EXPANDS free will; not to mention as a side effect, probably increases overall happiness, peace and a general feeling of well-being in day-to-day life. Facing and growing from these challenges and "ordeals" certainly does not contract free-will; and it especially has nothing to do with going against unconventional ideas. I don't even know where you pulled that one from. If anything, LSD makes you question conventional ideas and more likely to consider unconventional ones, once again, expanding free will, so I don't know what your thoughts were by saying that.

Having preconceptions and expectations about the outcome of an experiment... what are you saying, life is an experiment? If so we can choose to live our lives and perceive our lives however we want. Whether we use psychedelics to occasionally alter that perception is inconsequential. It doesn't necessarily defeat reason... we live by laws of physics, and drugs are used for a wide variety of reasons... whatever reason you find any one drug valuable for for yourself... you use it for that reason. With a drug like LSD, you can use it however you want. In my experience however, and most others, it is used to temporarily, and sometimes permanently, change perception, and when used to that end with a positive mindset, can certainly lead to positive results. Research on the subject merely backs up these claims and you can choose to believe the research or not based on subjective experiences and perceived reliability.

I have no idea about your life, your experiences, or your specific experiments and uses with psychedelics, and I'm curious as to what you mean when you say your problems with drugs started once you stopped them. Most people who have problems with drugs, have a problem while using them, not stopping them - at least when it comes to psychedelics, as there is no known withdrawal having been reported from ceasing even heavy use of them as far as I'm aware. But if you're saying for example (and this is merely just a made up hypothesis - I'm not assuming this as truth) that you became more depressed and started viewing life more negatively and egotistically after stopping the use of LSD for example, then it is what it is, but it depends on how you look at it. Maybe using LSD occasionally kept you "in-touch" with the non-egotistical reality that may in fact exist beyond our normally perceived ego-based reality... but it certainly doesn't matter that stopping yourself from using LSD occasionally and reminding yourself of this "other side" means that you were hiding or running from anything. It just means you stopped using the drug, it's effect wore off over time, and after so much time passed, you "forgot" about that other possible reality which maybe made life easier to deal with, and you got more depressed because of it. If someone was close with their family, and their family helped them see things from with a certain perspective with a certain clarity which made their life better, but then at some point they were separated from their family and no longer received this emotional support of guidance, the positive perceptions of life that was given to them by their family may eventually be forgotten over time. That certainly doesn't mean that having a close family life was dangerous or bad for their health, it means that their family helped them through tough times by simply helping them see things in a certain light. Now if someone relied on their family for EVERYTHING, that could be considered unhealthy, sure. Another example - if someone meditated regularly in moderation and found it helped them handle their stress better, but then one day stopped meditating, and started to become more regularly stressed, it doesn't mean that meditation was bad or dangerous, it just means that it lost its effect from abstinence. Now if someone spent their whole day meditating to the extent of avoiding daily duties and responsibilities and they let everything fall to the wayside just so they could meditate all the time to constantly avoid stress, yes, then that can become unhealthy. If someone lifts weights and does some cardio several days a week to keep in shape - a reasonable volume - an hour of lifting twice per week, sometimes going heavy, sometimes going light, pushing themselves to new levels when feeling ready, with maybe 20 or 30 minutes of light to moderate cardio the days in between, but making sure to listen to their body, rest and take breaks when needed, that could be considered healthy. If they started working out for 6 hours a day every day - that will very easily become an unhealthy habit. It all depends on balance in one's personal life and how things are used. The use of LSD then, can be healthy or unhealthy, but it is NOT by default dangerous and unhealthy. And that is the point of this post.

And why do you have the word "appreciation" linked to an Onion article talking about polyphenols and cholesterol levels?

 

[pmoseman]

Yeah, people run into a lot of trouble when they stop using drugs. That really isn't that unusual.

I had a psychotic break.

The ordeal of a bad trip I am sure is not comfortable. Your mind is able to work up a myriad explanations for your life. Just because you see a particular one on LSD does not mean it is true.

If you want my workout routine? ask.

 

[spacejunk]

You know The Onion is purely satire, right?

 

[whiteroom67]

Yeah, but it's usually very easy to tell the illusory aspects of LSD and other psychedelics apart from the revelations involving truth, at least for me. I mean I suppose if one uses them way too much, then I can see how reality can eventually start to become too distorted, because of course we are still here living in this reality, and have to abide by its rules. It would be like assuming physics on our level works the same as physics at the quantum mechanical level - while they are somehow connected and related, we can't live our lives relying on the quantum mechanic world in day-to-day life. But anyone using them to that degree for long periods of time is just so rare. Alan Watts had a good saying when it came to psychedelics:

"Psychedelic experience is only a glimpse of genuine mystical insight, but a glimpse which can be matured and deepened by the various ways of meditation in which drugs are no longer necessary or useful. If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen..."

However, just because you hang up the phone, doesn't mean it won't ring again either. Sometimes we could use a reminder. Experiencing ego-death and merging with the universe can be a one-time thing on psychedelics, it may or may not ever happen again. At that point, psychedelics can either like I said, be used as a spiritual reminder on an occasional basis, or even once in awhile just for plain fun, but again only if used responsibly.

Are you relating your psychotic break to the stopping of using psychedelics/LSD? Or was it when stopping other drugs? Or both? I get and understand trouble from withdrawal involving drugs like opiates, benzos, stimulants and alcohol... but withdrawal from psychedelics? That has never been reported as far as I am aware. How often were you using LSD/psychedelics/other drugs? Also, what exactly did you experience when using LSD/other psychedelics? What made you come to view them with such negativity? Be specific. What is your life like? Your background. You don't have to (and shouldn't) give away any identifying information about yourself, but who are you on the inside, what were your trip(s) like, and how do you feel they influenced each other? Ask yourself these questions and I would be interested to know the answers you find.

I did hear a story awhile back of one guy who used mushrooms almost every day for a long time and eventually he started to believe he was literally one of God's prophets, like Jesus or something. He had to go to a psychward and eventually over time, I think like a year of abstinence or something, he finally returned to normal, and later admitted he was using psychedelics too much at the time. But stopping helped him obviously, and that was an example of someone using psychedelics irresponsibly - abusing them. Like I said, pretty rare with psychedelics, but it can happen I suppose. But honestly, I don't even remember where I heard this story and really don't even know how much of it, if any, is true. After all, John Lennon and Jim Morrison were known to use LSD several times per week for quite awhile during the mid-late 60's in the early part of their careers and they certainly didn't go psychotic - on the contrary, it was arguably during the best points in their careers; they wrote great music and helped lead a revolution of free-thinking. Also, having spent time in the Amazon jungle staying with a shaman and his family drinking Ayahuasca, they drink Aya on an average of at least once per week, and they certainly are not psychotic by any means - not even close. I easily was able to have normal conversations with them just like anyone else (at least as much as my limited Spanish and our cultural differences would allow).

Also:

For what it's worth, for 2 years I ate psychedelics 2-7 times a week, every week, even taking AMT at 60-90mg every day for 7 days straight, and other than a temporary intense crash from prolonged lack of sleep, I have never experienced any negative aftereffects from it. Of course I would never count on the same being true for you.

So but again, everyone is different, I suppose.

And no thanks I don't need your workout routine I do fine with my many variations of powerlifting, Olympic lifting and strongman lifts plus Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and cardio/hiking but feel free to share yours if you want lol

 

[theacidtest]

Let me summarize: "I had a bad time, suffered from mental illness, and just generally can't handle my psychedelics. Therefore psychedelics are bad, no one should use them, no one is truly benefiting from them, and they're harming you."

Do you by chance work for the D.A.R.E. program? 8)

 

[bernax]

Just because you have a bad experience with a drug does not mean everyone has the same kind of experience. If i read your comments, you are one of those people who can better stay away from psychedelics.

 

[pmoseman]

If quantum physics were actually correct it would work out just fine.

A workout routine was the analogy you used for drug use.

*Am I relating my stopping to a psychotic break? No. That is how they are related. Am I conjecturing that is what caused it? That is the conjecture.

You mention people having issues with stimulants, well the psychedelic drugs are stimulants.

Now, for me, they almost seem like separate events. Pushing the psychedelic use a touch too far led to a psychotic break, which knocked out the power station.

*Stopping of other drugs? I had not recently used any other drugs and those that may have had any prolonged effect were other psychedelics: LSA, DXM, Psilocybin. I continued using cannabis and drinking alcohol, of which the former turned into a nightmarish rehashing of insanity.

It seems possible, although I was not hitting a cannabis pipe, I was cleaning one, that my brain chemistry had changed in a way to have an unusual reaction to cannabis. But I also feel that, masked by all the drug use, I was slowly dissolving, without realizing it.

*How often? I was a weekly/daily smoker for 2 years and an every other weekend/monthly tripper for 6 months.

*Experience whilst tripping? Interactive hallucinations/universal energy with other people who were on my level. Getting lost in my imagination. Persisting hallucinations such as seeing smoke and altered thinking.

Between trips I felt I was fairly resistant to any issues doing with drugs and had some precognitions, my friend saw Is on the verge of something and I saw myself as becoming water logged. An avalanche would have been a better analogy.

*Negativity? I realized what I thought about myself in relation to others was not realistic. That other people were more complex than I gave them credit for. Seeing how drug use was altering others and relating that idea to myself, perhaps gave me a more realistic view of what effect these drugs were actually having. Perhaps I was imagining a version of myself and was not fully realizing the harm that came from my drug use.

When I had the psychotic break and had to start facing what my drug use had done to who I had been. I got a first hand experience of the dangers in using drugs and realized that there was truth in stories related to me about trouble stemming from drug use.

*Background? Who I was at the time of these events, someone first getting out on their own. First year in college, where I didn't want to be, self-imposed pressure to do a good job. Didn't use drugs in high school and made a lot of friends once I got out of high school. Had been reclusive and interested in my own thoughts, nature, video games, few friends. Most definitely disliked school. Had a lot of low-level resentment towards former classmates and had a strong desire to travel.

My closest friend at college wanted to try drugs and I thought he was kind of reckless, other friends were fairly heavy drug users. I was less interested in using drugs than simply making friends. Drank with drinking friends, smoked with smoking friends, stayed clear of methamphetamine and ecstasy.

I had become very forgetful and it was difficult at the time to patch together a timeline of events. A friend of mine had killed himself before I graduated, he was a year younger than me. I had always seemed to relate with drug users before ever using drugs, the few times I actually talked with people. I think his suicide was related to prescription drug abuse, though I am not sure.

I would say I was independent. Outcast. Didn't fit in with other groups very well. Did not date, although I had always had a few friends and romantic interests. Hid cigarette use from my parents. Had a few jobs prior, worked during school and was falling way behind in classes, which is fairly typical for me.

 

[pmoseman]

Just because you have a bad experience with a drug does not mean everyone has the same kind of experience. If i read your comments, you are one of those people who can better stay away from psychedelics.

What is your criteria?

 

[whiteroom67]

Quantum physics IS correct, on the quantum level... Umm yeah.

Yes a workout routine was the analogy I used for the analogy of drug use. That doesn't mean I need to know your workout routine.

Psychedelic drugs are not stimulants, and to call them as such is incorrect. Although some of them do have some stimulant-like properties to a degree.

Our personal backgrounds and the type of people we are.. We seem to have quite a bit in common. Not our personal experiences or thoughts on drug use though. It sounds as though you as an individual need to stay away from psychedelics, including cannabis. Maybe you are bipolar or are schizotypal or have some other sort of mental issue that needs to be addressed, and hence for you, psychedelics are bad. I can't make that official diagnosis though. If you had a bad reaction after some time and experienced what you call a psychotic break, maybe your psychedelic use actually just made you realize that drug use scared you, and that it wasn't for you, and if thats the case then you'd might as well be grateful for it before it got worse for you. Only you can decide that though.

I am still going with the consensus that in general for the majority of users, with the exception of certain users, psychedelics are not dangerous drugs when used properly. Thats really all I have to say.