L-Tyrosine, Curcumin, PQQ, CoQ10 and other supplement discussion when using stims

[GrymReefer]

I'm a major advocate of supplementation however my ideology is based around fitness and maintaining an optimal level of nutrition. To do this though I tend to consume supraphysiological doses of specific key compounds while simultaneously manipulating my daily macronutritional intake in a cyclical protocol. I don't mess with monitoring most micronutritional intake unless it has the possibility of creating a toxic environment due to the various exogenous intakes. ie: copper, zinc, iron, D3.... Anything that has a detrminental threshold.

The big thing about taking a multi vitamin is the concentration the compounds exist at, the bioavailability of the compunds in relation to the manufacturing process (I'll dive into this later) and the possible interactions a few vitamins/minerals have when being consume simultaneously.

I'm sure a lot of people who believe in micronutrient supplementation take B12. However, most take an oral form that is a inactive analog (technical term is vitamer) of the cobalamin molecule. For instance cyanocobalamin has a cyanide molecule attached to the upper ligand of the cobalamin structure. This allows the compound to survive the first layer of digestion, but it is also introduced as an inactive form of B12. Meaning more enzymatic alterations must occur for cyanocobalamin to become biologically active for utilization. Most is malabsorbed due to the complicated mechanics of converting the cyanide molecule to a methyl/adenosyl and not losing a substantial amount of concentration in the process. That is a little information regarding oral use.

Now injections have a higher rate of successful absorption due to the injection making a depot within the administered site (intramuscular injections tend to be more favorable than subcutaneous injections) This depot allows a sustained release of the compound due to the fixed rate related to its total surface area and how much is in contact. You still have an absorption issues due to the nature of the attached molecule and this is where finding a more biologically active form dictates how effective its mechanics are. For instance, methylcobalamin is already in a biologically active form and thus does not necessary need a further conversion process to allow for utilization of the body. Now in order to achieve the same effect as an active injectable form, you need to consume pretty large dosages orally. A bit of the B12 is immediately absorbed via the cell membrane due to passive diffusion, but majority of the intake has to be utilized in the digestive tract where malabsorption will still ocur due to variables that are pretty confusing. So I'm not going to go that deep.

Now not every vitamin is like this, but I thought it would be a good example to show case the truly tedious nature of micronutrients and the real deal on what actually happens once it is ingested. A lot and i mean A LOT of vitamins, minerals and amino acids are negligible in the dosages you generally see in multi-vitamins or in individual forms you may see at Wal-Mart or your local pharmacy. Like Sekio said a few times there is really no need to take all of these individual substances if you have a good diet and you fit the description of the general population. If you are someone who is extremely active and I don't mean a jog every other day or 30 minute walks then extremely meticulous supplementation is a promising avenue. Just be prepared to have 5-10 kilos of powders and raw forms of vitamins sitting in your cabinets.

P.S Only reason I know that much about B12 is from my massive deficiency I once dealt with and the benefit it gives me due to having anemia. It was day/night with B12 injections, but I still take absolutely massive levels of B12 every few weeks to maintain this level. 5,000mcg-10,000mcg every few weeks depending on availability or whatever experiment I'm running on my body at a given time.

 

[aced126]

The limiting factor in dopamine synthesis is not the intake of tyrosine, it is conversion of tyrosine to L-DOPA, a process which doesn't occur any faster than normal if you take more.

Where does this conversion take place? Also, if one were to take L-DOPA would that hasten dopamine synthesis, or does L-DOPA not cross the BBB?

 

[dankhead88]

From what I've read, L-DOPA can cross the BBB, which is then metabolized by the enzyme DOPA Decarboxylase to Dopamine, however the enzyme also exist in the PNS from what I've read, which would metabolize L-DOPA in the PNS causing peripheral effects because Dopamine cannot cross the BBB, unless you were to administer a DOPA Decarboxylase inhibitor like Carbidopa to prevent breakdown of L-DOPA in the PNS. Unfortunately L-DOPA and carbidopa is RX only. There are natural sources that contain L-DOPA and DOPA Decarboxylase inhibitors. Mucuna Pruiens contain L-DOPA along with very small amounts of other things such as some psychedelic tryptamines but not enough for any effects. Green tea is known to contain compounds that can inhibit those enzymes. I forget what it was, but it has been known to have those properties.

 

[mb-909]

Don't fuck around with your dopmamine and serotonin system... Trying to cross the BBB to increase your serotonin or dopamine levels isn't smart. Your body will counter act and some day you might be dependent on taking it to reach normal levels... As much as I heard there is a reason why L-DOPA is mostly used to treat parkinsonismn.

Instead of "wasting" my money on supplements I would spent it on fresh food. Exercice, Exercise, Exercise! There is nothing better than exercise! Working with people with dementia I can say that those unable to move showed a rapid decline in cognitive functions over time whereas the active seniors only showed a steady and slow decline in higher functions.

 

[kailinu]

I've been diagnosed with atypical depression and only just read about the alleged effect of chromium picolinate on carb cravings and decided to try it for myself. After 3 weeks, I don't think it is working on my depression. However it definitely helps to curb my cravings for carbs. Actually not only carbs, but any kind of food. I tried twice (for the sake of science of course) to see how far it could go as an appetite suppressant for me and took 500 mcg (2 pills) each time in the day I would start to get hungry and with one dosing in the morning, one in the early afternoon (2pm-ish) and one in the evening, I could go to sleep without having to eat at all. Not healthy, I know, but based on this sole criteria, I could compare it with 20 mg of Adderall. I know these doses are way over the daily recommended dose, I know that one study showed it could "break DNA" in rats and be a potential carcinogen and I know it probably only works for people with atypical depression or insulin resistance, and I know it could just be a "honey moon" and poop out on me sooner rather than later, but as of today, it is what it is: a very good anorexiant and has worked like clockwork so far. I take two pills and good-bye hunger for 6 hours.

As a bonus, although I have mentioned that it does not seem to work on the depression per se, it might work somewhat in the long term, because putting on weight (and I mean a lot of weight) secondary to crazy carb cravings when depressed used to make even more depressed (I had always been thin before the AD hit me like at on of bricks), and chromium picolinate can at least help in this respect. I have lost about 4 kg in 3 weeks (probably half of it in water, because glycogen "binds water") and am about half-way with where I would like to be weight-wise.

Again, what works for me right now, might not work for long, and may not work for most of the people at all.

 

[asecin]

old but interesting thread. good read, thanks for bumping it. im still curious what all those people involved have to say about anything on here, a good summary revisit would be sweet but i doubt many are still active or ones who are (sekio) give two shits about this thread

 

[kailinu]

I'm sorry: I thought it was a thread about chromium picolinate since it was the first result in Google Search when typing "chromium picolinate site:bluelight.org". I feel like I have hijacked this thread with my CP story.

Back on track kids I would look into curcumin (coupled with piperine and possibily in a liposome vehicle), resveratrol and esp. CoQ10 and n-acetyl-cysteine as the most promising candidates but cannot vouch for their ability to pass the BBB (NAC definitely does). Melatonin also seems to decrease methamphetamine neurotoxicity and this neuroprotection is apparently mediated by its capacity to lessen hyperthermia.