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L-Tyrosine, Curcumin, PQQ, CoQ10 and other supplement discussion when using stims

I

imhere

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Joined
Feb 26, 2013
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10
Hi all , lately ive taken interest in protecting my brain and body when i use stimulants recreationally.

This is my current "Stack"

In the morning:


Multivitamin that contains:



*Vitamin A (as natural beta-carotene) 20,000 IU 400%
*Vitamin C (as calcium ascorbate) 300 mg 500%
Vitamin D (as ergocalciferol) 400 IU 100%
Vitamin E (as D-alpha tocopheryl succinate) 200 IU 667%
Thiamin (as thiamin mononitrate) 100 mg 6667%
Riboflavin 100 mg 5682%
Niacin (as niacinamide, niacin) 100 mg 500%
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine HCl) 90 mg 4500%
Folic Acid 400 mcg 100%
Vitamin B12 (as cobalamin) 100 mcg 1667%
Biotin 100 mcg 33%
Pantothenic Acid (as D-Ca pantothenate) 100 mg 1000%
Calcium (as calcium carbonate) 50 mg 5%
IroL-Glutathione sulfate, bisglycinate††) 10 mg 56%
Iodine (as potassium iodine) 150 mcg 100%
Magnesium (as magnesium oxide) 30 mg 8%
Zinc (as zinc oxide, glycinate amino acid chelate†) 15 mg 100%
Selenium (as L-selenomethione) 25 mcg 36%
Copper (as copper gluconate, copper oxide) 1.5 mg 75%
Manganese (as manganese gluconate) 2 mg 100%
Chromium (as chromium picolinate, yeast-free) 25 mcg 21%
Molybdenum (as glycinate amino acid chelate†) 50 mcg 67%
Sodium ††† 10 mg <1%
Potassium (as potassium chloride) 10 mg <1%
Inositol 100 mg **
Choline(as choline bitartrate) 41 mg **
Rose Hips (fruit) 40 mg **
Rutin 25 mg **
Citrus Bioflavonoids 25 mg **
Betaine HCl 25 mg **
L-Glutamic Acid 25 mg **
Pryidoxal-5-Phosphate 20 mg **
Lecithin 20 mg **
Hesperidin 5 mg **
L-Glutathione 5 mg **
Boron (as boron amino acid complex) 1 mg **



Carotenoid Mix (alpha carotene, lutein, zeaxanthin, cryptoxanthin) 229 mcg **


Whole Food/Herbal Blend

(Alfalfa [whole-plant], Orange Peel Powder, Dong Quai [root], Eleuthero [root], Oat Fiber, Suma [root], Watercress [whole plant], Echinacea Purpurea [root], Parsley [aerial], Spirulina) 260 mg **


VM-2000 Soy Protein/Amino Acid Blend

(L-Glutamic acid, L-Aspartic Acid, L-Leucine, L-Arginine, L-Lysine, L-Phenylalanine, L-Serine, L-Proline, L-Valine, L-Isoleucine, L-Alanine, Glycine, L-Threonine, L-Tyrosine, L-Histidine, L-Cysteine, L-Methionine) 200 mg **


Percent Daily Values (DV) are based on a 2,000 calorie diet.


**Daily Value (DV) not established.

† Special multi-chelate formula providing minerals complexed as amino acid chelates. Albion process patent 4,599,152 Chelazomes.


††Unique form of chelated iron (iron bisglycinate) formulated for maximum absorption without absorption without gastrointestinal irritation or the constipating effects that often accompany iron supplementation. Albion process patent No. 4,599,152 Chelazomes.

††† Naturally occurring; therefore amount may vary





Fish Oil capsules that contain:

~1000mg 50/50 DHA/EPA

Vit D3 22.5ug
Vit A 375ug
Vit E 15mg

Green Tea Extract: 600mg

Alpha-Lipoic Acid: 200mg



At Night i take:


Magnesium Citrate: 400mg

Melatonin: 1-3mg



When i use MDMA i up the doses of my supplementation, escpecially Magnesium, Melatonin and ALA.


I also take 5-HTP for a few days after a roll as i feel it helps to restore the lost serotonin faster.
However i dont notice any benefit using 5-HTP as a daily supplement.


Now i bought a bottle of L-Tyrosine on a whim after reading that it is used to create dopamine in your body.
I didnt properly research L-Tyrosine and now im kinda lost with it not knowing if its useful and how it should be used.


I use amphetamine recreationally fairly responsibly, trying to eat, sleep and overall take care of myself when using. I know that the body is very efficient in creating dopamine when there is enough protein available.


Is L-Tyrosine a good idea to supplement post amphetamine use? Would it help with the lethargy that is often experienced after using amphetamine?


I read somewhere that using L-tyrosine to preload before amphetamine use is not a good idea because it is believed to cause downregulation of receptors. I also remember reading that using L-tyrosine just before or during amphetamine use might even be neurotoxic because of excessive dopamine. (Sorry that i dont have the links to from where i read these, but i believe it was bluelight)



Curcumin, now this one is interesting as its a very powerful antioxidant and is even believed to potentiate amphetamines. Could someone share some info on how it should be dosed? Is it supposed to be a daily supplement?



PQQ and CoQ10 are both also very interesting powerful antioxidants(?) that id like to know more about.




Any criticism about my current supplementation regime is more than welcome and the more in depth you can explain how or why something does not work, is not necessary or can even be dangerous is something id like to discuss, learn and read about. Basically i learn better when i understand the reasons and mechanism of how a substance effects your body.


All the info about Curcumin and PQQ, CoQ10 is more than welcome, be it anecdotal, your own experience or some study.



In short, i like my stimulants (on 60mg right now) but id like to be as safe and responsible about my use as i can be. I also understand why something should be taken or avoided if i learn about the mechanism of how the substance affects your body/brain behind it.


English is not my first language so sorry for the typos and ask me to try and explain better if you didnt understand something.




Teach me!
 
have you considered spending your supplement money on e.g. more vegetables in the diet. most of this reads as chaff that should have little or no effect if you have a balanced diet anyway
i mean seriously, why do you need to have hydrolysed soy protien, do the hydrolases in your gut not work to break protein down? do you eat exclusively butter and cornstarch? i understand a daily multivitamine but i think supplementation beyond known things you are deficient on is a waste of money and effort for only marginal if any benefits

200 mg of hydrolysed soy protien is pretty much next to nothing in the nutritive sense of things, consuming amino acids in a less than 10mg dose is basically 100% inert.

i mean when have you ever heard of a clinically confirmed case of chromium or selenium deficiency? even stuff like copper/iron/manganese. deficiencies of those compounds is only common if you avoid anything that has anything grown in the dirt as part of the food chain. (e.g people being fed synthetic food mix through tubes in hospitals to avoid any possibility for infections)

Now i bought a bottle of L-Tyrosine on a whim after reading that it is used to create dopamine in your body.
Click to expand...

looks like the marketing departments are working hard huh. i bet you didnt read that it's present in your diet already and has absolutely no effect on central dopamine levels whatsoever (destroyed outside the BBB)

Tyrosine is not toxic and in fact should have pretty much no effect beyond placebo in a healthy person. It won't cause "receptor degregulation" because it does not act the same as amphetamines at all. It will not help recovery from amphetamines any more than a high-fat meal and rest either, unless you are eating no protein whatsoever. The limiting factor in dopamine synthesis is not the intake of tyrosine, it is conversion of tyrosine to L-DOPA, a process which doesn't occur any faster than normal if you take more.

sorry if this seems like i'm personally affronted i just think you can spend your money better places
 
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Well, I, for one, think this is a great idea for a discussion, although DUDE. That is sooooooo much stuff. I know that a few of those you've listed truly do help, but I have the feeling most of them probably don't, unless you're in need of help regarding lightening the heavy load of your wallet.

I'm interested to hear what others (hopefully) have to contribute to this topic, because after roughly 15+ years of high-dose daily Adderall, I feel like my own brain seriously requires some sort of "natural" rebooting, via supplementation. Rather, supplementation which actually WORKS and isn't some crackpot Dr Oz expensive quackery. Magnesium, chelated/glycinate, works for me, thank the old gods and the new, but that is about it thus far.
 
"natural" rebooting, via supplementation.
Click to expand...

This is perhaps one of the most longstanding myths in western medicine... there isn't ever going to be a magical supplement you can take to undo years of stress and poor lifestyle choices.

Pretty much the only time anyone needs to focus on supplementation is if you are known to be deficient or a member of an at-risk population (pregnant women, family history of deficiency, high stress etc). We live in the age of enriched foods, if you are meeting your dietary macronutrient needs then there is a good chance you can get away with a single cheap multivitamin per day. If you eat meat, bread, fish, eggs you may not even need one.

Often the effects of eating properly will be much more obvious than any effects you see with "supplements". Same as for aerobic exercise.
 
Damn i wrote a novel worth of text but bluelight decided my token had expired... Ill write it up again in the morning
 
Will L-tryptophane (or 5-htp) potentiate the stimulant high? Say you've been taking 500mg pills of L-tryptophane every day for a week and then do cocaine, will the high last longer, or peak higher?
 
Xadem said:
Will L-tryptophane (or 5-htp) potentiate the stimulant high? Say you've been taking 500mg pills of L-tryptophane every day for a week and then do cocaine, will the high last longer, or peak higher?
Click to expand...

Unless your diet consists of cornstarch and lard probably not. Proper diet, exercise, and general healthy lifestyle are going to be the biggest factors for this.

CoQ10 is a tentatively good step as it has a long half life and has been extensively studied. Much else is pretty much just speculation, maybe get yourself a basic multivitamin and some fruit.
 
sekio said:
looks like the marketing departments are working hard huh. i bet you didnt read that it's present in your diet already and has absolutely no effect on central dopamine levels whatsoever (destroyed outside the BBB)
Click to expand...

I agree with many of your points , how ever i don't think tyrosine supplementation after amphetamines is useless. Do you get L tryosine from diet? Yes but for dopamine to be recovered as fast as possible before your next dose this is where supplementation comes in handy. No effect on central dopamine levels? How do you explain my awakeness and sometimes jittery feeling after taking a good dose of L tyrosine? Also taking it before bed can keep you awake, meaning it must be causing some production of dopamine and nor epinephrine. Lastly i don't think it is placebo, effects are noticeable indeed.
 
Just because you get effects don't mean they are caused the way you hypothesize... the wakefulness and jitters could be from conversion to tyramine outside the BBB, and just because you have noticeable effects that doesn't exclude the possibility of it being placebo.
 
Sorry all it took me so long to respond, i was on vacation without access to internet.

Sekio, you are absolutely right that theres a lot of stuff i take that is propably pointless, inert, not well researched, or are produced enough through proper diet and lifestyle choices. The body and mind are amazing at keeping us alive and mentally stable without the need to supplement.

The multivitamin pill that has a shitload of ingredients might seem a bit overkill and it certainly is to some degree. When i bought it i just said to the clerk to give me a multivitamin that "has it all" and he gave me this. It was a bit more expensive than some of the other options, but as stated it has it all and i think a big plus is that the ingredients have good bioavailabilities. (Some of the cheapest ones are close to inert because of bad bioavailability.)

Your info about tyrosine is just what i was after with this thread. It seems that because i eat healthy and lots of protein i should just give the bottle to some of my tweaker friends who tend to binge on stimulants. Maybe its some use to them after a hard binge?

I do however believe that many of the supplements i take have benefits, because i have experienced them myself and they have some solid studies and lots of positive user experiences to read about.

Some that i find useful and have experience with:

Magnesium citrate:

This is the supplement that started my interest in supplementation. I had read that it helps with MDMA bruxism that i experienced a lot. Tried it with my next dose and it almost eliminated my bruxism and made me overall less jittery. I take this every night because it makes me rather sleepy.
Other reason to take magnesium is the supposed reduce in building amphetamine tolerance via NMDA antagonism.
I also find it somewhat anxiolytic(Anybody else experience this?).

Vitamin D:

Now i live in a country that has long dark winters and i suffer from winter depression every winter. Supplementing with D helps me immensly. I do not take it at all in the summer because the sun does its job providing me my vit D.

Fish oil capsules 2x day:

I very rarely eat fish and i remember the recommendation is that you should eat fish 1-2 times a week. I notice that my mood is a lot more stable and sharp when i supplement fish oil. It helps with the "brain fog" that can be caused by many things: bad sleep, drug use, bad diet, not exercising etc. It aint no wonderpill that cures anything radical right away but sort of works in the backround when supplemented regurally. I noticed when i once stopped taking it for a couple of weeks, that my cognitive skills seemed to be not as sharp and the "brain fog" occured more pronounced. For example after a bad sleep.
Supposed to also help with skin and hair.

Alpha-lipoic Acid:

I take this one daily even though it might not be neccesary. A powerful antioxidant. The most useful this one has been when ive for example had a little bit too much MDMA with poor hydration and nutrition. You get that hot-headed feeling that something just aint right in your head, this usually occurs close to or at comedown. If i experience this and water or food wont help, i pop 400mg of ALA and it will start to help within 30min and i start to feel much less toxicated.

Melatonin:

Great antioxidant. Also does what its supposed to do and helps me sleep.


Theres lots of other stuff i take that i think have benefits but i wont list those as it can just be placebo.



Then there is other psychoactive drugs that i dont consider supplements but that help me in other ways.

Cannabis:

Wont go into much detail as theres so much info out there allready. Great for comedowns and hangovers, have been shown to have many health benefits on its own and combined with other psychoactive drugs. Moderation is key.

Psilocybin:

Every time i take shrooms, be it a bad trip or a good trip i always feel great afterwards. Antidepressant effect is very noticeable and everytime i do shrooms my thinking seems sharpened and improved for a long time. Has been shown to increase neuroplasticity. I have also experienced anxiolytic effects(post-trip) 1-4 times a year.

MXE:

A good m-hole experience used to give me an amazing afterglow that could last up to two weeks. NMDA antagonist(?) so should help with tolerance.
I cant use it anymore though because i started to become addicted to it. Be careful.

DXM:

Only now started to seek info about this and would like to know more. Supposedly helps with tolerance because of NMDA antagonism?



I wont go into benzos, opiates and the like because while sometimes very useful, these cant really be considered harm reduction, tolerance prevention or repairing the brain regarding stimulant use.

One more thing came to mind. Whenever possible, i will plug my stimulants. I think its the best ROA easily.


So heres the little novel that i promised you guys. I hope this sparks more conversation and interest in the topic.

I would still like to know more about Curcumin, PoQ10, DXM and tolerance prevention
 
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wow that is an arsenal of supplements.

Im a firm believer in natural sources of supplements, and at the very least, extract forms.

The best results ive seen of overall smoother comeups, plateaus and comedowns is green tea(long jing, short jing) and baking soda.
 
sekio said:
have you considered spending your supplement money on e.g. more vegetables in the diet. most of this reads as chaff that should have little or no effect if you have a balanced diet anyway
i mean seriously, why do you need to have hydrolysed soy protien, do the hydrolases in your gut not work to break protein down? do you eat exclusively butter and cornstarch? i understand a daily multivitamine but i think supplementation beyond known things you are deficient on is a waste of money and effort for only marginal if any benefits

200 mg of hydrolysed soy protien is pretty much next to nothing in the nutritive sense of things, consuming amino acids in a less than 10mg dose is basically 100% inert.

i mean when have you ever heard of a clinically confirmed case of chromium or selenium deficiency? even stuff like copper/iron/manganese. deficiencies of those compounds is only common if you avoid anything that has anything grown in the dirt as part of the food chain. (e.g people being fed synthetic food mix through tubes in hospitals to avoid any possibility for infections)



looks like the marketing departments are working hard huh. i bet you didnt read that it's present in your diet already and has absolutely no effect on central dopamine levels whatsoever (destroyed outside the BBB)

Tyrosine is not toxic and in fact should have pretty much no effect beyond placebo in a healthy person. It won't cause "receptor degregulation" because it does not act the same as amphetamines at all. It will not help recovery from amphetamines any more than a high-fat meal and rest either, unless you are eating no protein whatsoever. The limiting factor in dopamine synthesis is not the intake of tyrosine, it is conversion of tyrosine to L-DOPA, a process which doesn't occur any faster than normal if you take more.

sorry if this seems like i'm personally affronted i just think you can spend your money better places
Click to expand...

Just wanted to say that low levels of chromium have been linked to atypical depression and there have been several cases where chromium supplementation cured all symptoms of atypical depression in those who were previously deficient.
 
Rio Fantastic said:
Just wanted to say that low levels of chromium have been linked to atypical depression and there have been several cases where chromium supplementation cured all symptoms of atypical depression in those who were previously deficient.
Click to expand...

I'm really interested in reading more about that if you have any more info.
 
The psychology today and holford articles you linked reference a pilot study that tested chromium on 10 people, of which 7 had a favorable response. Strangely 0 people in their placebo arm showed a response, which I've never seen in an antidepressant trial before: Effectiveness of chromium in atypical depression: a placebo-controlled trial.

The research study you linked says that chromium supplementation helped controlling appetite in depressed patients, but had no effect on measures of depression (the HAM-D-29 scores). This study tested chromium on 70 people, compared to 10 in the trial that showed a positive response.
 
endotropic said:
The psychology today and holford articles you linked reference a pilot study that tested chromium on 10 people, of which 7 had a favorable response. Strangely 0 people in their placebo arm showed a response, which I've never seen in an antidepressant trial before: Effectiveness of chromium in atypical depression: a placebo-controlled trial.

The research study you linked says that chromium supplementation helped controlling appetite in depressed patients, but had no effect on measures of depression (the HAM-D-29 scores). This study tested chromium on 70 people, compared to 10 in the trial that showed a positive response.
Click to expand...

So a 70% response rate compared to 0% for placebo isn't enough to establish a link for you? I just linked to the first 3 studies I found on google, there have been plenty of studies done on the link between chromium and atypical depression, if you do a few minutes of research you're bound to find plenty. Here's a couple more if you can't be bothered yourself:

http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...age=online&aid=64243&fileId=S146114570000208X

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-001-0960-7
 
Doesn't it concern you that the largest clinical trial linked so far didn't find any difference on measures of depression? Based on these studies I don't think we can say one way or the other yet about antidepressant effects.
 
endotropic said:
Doesn't it concern you that the largest clinical trial linked so far didn't find any difference on measures of depression? Based on these studies I don't think we can say one way or the other yet about antidepressant effects.
Click to expand...

There have been a lot of studies done on the link between chromium and depression, certainly enough to convince me that in SOME cases there is a link. I never said it's a foolproof method of beating depression in all cases, but considering it's an inexpensive, readily available mineral with no harmful side effects like psychiatric drugs I'd say there's definitely enough evidence to warrant people experiencing depression - especially with atypical features - to give it a try. And I'd say the fact that there's one study showing 70% of patients going into remission and another showing 100% of patients going into remission and the fact that there is a plausible scientific basis for the connection between chromium deficiency and depression that has been put forward is evidence enough to contradict your claim that nobody in the modern western world has ever suffered from a chromium deficiency.
 
It was me claiming that chromium deficiency is unlikely (not impossible). And personally speaking, I would hardly call a sample size of 10 people a 100% foolproof study - although it's certainly a start.

I'm a practical guy though, if you find chromium supplementation works, then that's cool. But I'm just saying, based upon my experience, that if you include enough stuff grown in dirt you'll probably get at least a baseline dietary level of chromium.

Or you can suck on a car bumper I guess :p
 
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