Opioids Kratom Mega Thread V.4

[Mycophile]

Just want to bring this too everyones attention: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25535742

Kratom may cause the life threatening arrythmia torsades de pointes.

If you ever feel easily winded on kratom, light headed, shortness of breath, chest pain, weakness, or fatigue on kratom, you should stop taking it immediately. The more severe symptoms would be fainting, sudden death, or awaking gasping for air covered in cold sweat during the night. If you have genetic predipostions to any heart arrythmia's or heart diseases it would be wise to also stop it asap. (This means if anyone in your family has had arrythmia's, prolonged QT, or any heart issues, stay clear) If you have ever had a case of unexplained sudden death or fainting in your family, it would be wise to stop taking kratom asap.

Stay safe guys, we really don't know how safe kratom is. For that reason I quit it about a month ago.
(Although I hopped to poppy seed tea, I'm no angel and can't seem to fucking quit opiates lol)

Wait a minute, have there been ACTUAL reports of this happening???

I mean the link says there has but why haven't they at least linked a SPECIFIC incident like "50 year old male in United States in 2007 had an arrythimia" etc, just "it happened"??

And can it only happen if you have a genetic predisposition to a heart condition in your family??

Does this mean that Kratom is cardio toxic for ALL people??!?!

 

[Mycophile]

Fuck, I'm not happy about this.

I really want some more opinions on this.

I finally found a drug I really like and I don't want to have to stop using Kratom unless it's really a dangerous drug.

 

[sekio]

Kava kava has been used for thousands of years, and it's hepatotoxic.

Some parts of the plant are. Not all of them are, though.

 

[Mycophile]

I'm interested in educated opinions from people like Plasticity and Sekio.

Do you think all Kratom users would be wise to quit?

Is this the Final Word on Kratom?

Does this definitively PROVE it is cardio toxic to all people, or is there possibly more to the issue??

 

[Rexeh]

Got this information from Erowid.org, might be insughtful for those wanting to read more about potential health risks:

DEATHS
We know of no documented deaths directly attributable to kratom, but some products sold as kratom have resulted in death. One death documented in a 2011 paper described a kratom product that also had O-desmethyltramadol (a synthetic pharmaceutical) added to it. [1]

According to Pascal Tanguay, from the Thailand offices of PSI, a Washington DC-based global health organization that promotes harm reduction among drug users, "There's never been a single death associated with kratom. People have been chewing this for thousands of years with no cases of overdose, psychosis, murder, violent crime. Never in all of recorded history." [2]

CAUTIONS

• Liver Toxicity / Hepatotoxicity / Hepatitis. A small number of kratom experience reports describe hepatitis and/or hepatotoxic symptoms. This effect has also been reported in the medical literature (Kapp et al. 2011). Most of these reports of liver-health issues involve kratom extracts rather than unenhanced dried leaves. It is unknown if these are attributable to kratom alkaloids, extract-production byproducts, or other contaminants. See Sly 2008, Nlogn 2011, Experience Reports with mentions of liver issues.
  
• Habituation / Addiction. Kratom is considered addictive; reports of physical and psychological dependence, tolerance, and physical withdrawal symptoms are prevalent, though not universal, in experience reports. Taking kratom daily can result in physical dependence. In such instances, symptoms similar to those of opioid withdrawal usually begin 18-24 hours after the last dose and continue for 1-14 days.
  
• Vomiting while Sedated Mixing kratom with alcohol or other sedating drugs could result in life-threatening situations related to aspiration of vomit and asphyxia if unattended.
  
• Respiratory Depression? When asked whether kratom was dangerous, leading medical toxicologist Edward Boyer replied:
  
  
  People are afraid of opioid analgesics because they can lead to respiratory depression [difficulty breathing]. When you overdose on these drugs, your respiratory rate drops to zero. In animal studies where rats were given mitragynine, those rats had no respiratory depression. This opens the possibility of someday developing a pain medication as effective as morphine but without the risk of accidentally overdosing and dying. - Boyer E (professor of emergency medicine and director of medical toxicology at the University of Massachusetts Medical School.) [3]​

BENEFITS

• Medical Uses. The primary medical uses described by users of kratom are analgesia (pain relief), cessation of opioid withdrawal symptoms, and sedation.
  
• Reduction or Cessation of Opioid Withdrawal Symptoms Kratom is widely used by opioid addicts to stop or reduce opioid withdrawal symptoms. In some cases, kratom use helps individuals stop taking opioids entirely, but in other cases kratom simply replaces the other opioid addiction with daily kratom use.

References #

1. Kronstrand R, Roman M, Thelander G, Eriksson A. "Unintentional fatal intoxications with mitragynine and O-desmethyltramadol from the herbal blend Krypton" J Anal Toxicol. 2011 May 25;35(4):242-7.
2. Winn P. Thailand’s cure for meth addiction? A leafy jungle stimulant - GlobalPost, Sep 17 2013
3. Greenemeier L. Should Kratom Use Be Legal?. Scientific American. Sep 30, 2013
4. Erowid E, Erowid F. "The Kratom Experience from First-Hand Reports". in Kratom & Related Compounds (Mitragynines): The Chemistry & Pharmacology of Opioids from a Non-Opium Source [forthcoming].

Revision History #

v1.0 - Mar 30, 2014 - Erowid

--» Peace o/

 

[pbuilder]

Got this information from Erowid.org, might be insughtful for those wanting to read more about potential health risks:




--» Peace o/

I can respect that erowid page but it only really talks about deaths related to acute overdose or organ failure, and doesn't address the fact that most of the alkaloids in kratom haven't had any medical studies done on them. There are a lot of opiates with medical studies that have been linked to cardiac conduction disturbances because of their effect on certain channels in the heart.

Heart disease is a massive cause of death worldwide, and I'm sure tons of kratom users in Thailand have died from heart problems, just as tons of people who don't use kratom have died of heart problems. The question is, has a survey ever been done to see if statistically more cases of sudden cardiac death or heart disease occur among kratom users then the non user population. The answer is no, so we don't know.

My opinion is if you have any history of heart problems in your family, specifically problems with arrhythmia's, it would be wise to avoid kratom. Everyone here is an adult who can make there own decisions on what they out in their body. Keep in mind that erowid page appears to be based on anecdotal evidence, and there is not really any medical literature that has studied the effects of kratom on the heart, besides that one I linked, and I hope more studies get carried out on kratom soon, in Vito, so we can truly know if it is as benign as the average user thinks, or if it has potential risks to it, which most drugs do.

 

[Mycophile]

So no one else is as bothered by this study as I am?

Am I crazy that I don't want to quit Kratom after reading this?

 

[DixiChik]

I'm new to the trial of Kratom, as y'all know. I only took 3 capsules total (1800 mg) yesterday. I noticed a horrid headache yesterday afternoon. It was pulsing in the top of my head. I can't blame Kratom because I did get too hot outside. This sultry heat can sneak up on you.

I don't want to stop until I've given it a chance to "work" for me. So far I've felt nothing different. No adverse effects either, though, which is great! I guess I just need to increase amount/intervals until I feel results for pain relief/mood lift.

As previously mentioned upon joining BL, my PM prescribes Oxycodone. It seems to cause rebound pain when I take it. In other words, it hits hard making me feel "good" (pain still there but I don't care). It quickly wears off, leaving me with more pain. I can see where this could be a dangerous path to take. SO...I'm giving Kratom a try.

 

[Beavesmx44]

So no one else is as bothered by this study as I am?

Am I crazy that I don't want to quit Kratom after reading this?

Your high daily caffeine intake is a much larger potential danger to the heart than dosing kratom 3x/week without a doubt. Chill out.....i'm sure you hear that a lot.

 

[Ziiirp]

So no one else is as bothered by this study as I am?

Am I crazy that I don't want to quit Kratom after reading this?

No you're not crazy. You're addicted.

If I'll die from a seizure and you read about it in the news plus a Kratom-bag near my corpse please be aware, that I tried all bunch of supposedly cardiotoxic RC-stims in the last few years which likely have contributed to my condition (which is not perceivable at all).

I think the only way to find out, whether this study is legit or pro-synthetic-drugs-propaganda funded by pharma-enterprises is to ask people from Thailand or south east asia, that grew up in the natural Kratom habitat, whether they know about sudden fatalities caused by Kratom ingestion.

 

[deruyityn]

Its something called the burden of proof.

And being skeptical doesnt = brushing something off.

Im the biggest worryer probably of anyone and even I am not moved to hysteria by this one.

Your claim about the long history of use of substances not meaning anything is very ill conceived. Its like trying to refute evolution.

Seems you havent done much research on kava either to just be spouting the most superficial propaganda.

I have been experimenting with kava recently agian myself and have had some worrying side effects from that in my mid section region so im glad to not touch that shit any more. But that is a case of negative side effects showing themselves making me stop and the effect of kava was so crap. though with kratom ive felt non so business as usual for me.

Anything that can potentially cause torsades is not something you want to touch with a ten foot poll.

Kratom has not been used by Caucasians for anything but the past decade and a bit, and how would they be able to effectively calculate the amounts of potential cardiac related deaths over thousands of years that may have been tied to kratom.

Let's not pretend kratom is some benign thing, it's an opiate and it gets you high. It has all sorts of mechanisms of actions that we do not even know of or understand, and that haven't been studied, and since toxicology reports don't test for kratom, and the deaths aren't caused by acute overdose how can we really have an accurate idea of potential deaths related to kratom, we can't.

This whole it's been used for thousands of years things is tiring. Kava kava has been used for thousands of years, and it's hepatotoxic. The truth is we don't actually know fuck all about how safe kratom is, and it worrys me how quickly you guys are going to brush off a study that could link a deadly arrhythmia like torsades to kratom like it's bullshit.

The thing about arrhythmia's is that they are usually symptomless until you drop dead from sudden cardiac death.

I'll I'm doing is putting this information out there so that people can make an informed decision on there use of kratom, especially if they have a pre-existing heart condition.

 

[Mycophile]

No you're not crazy. You're addicted.

If I'll die from a seizure and you read about it in the news plus a Kratom-bag near my corpse please be aware, that I tried all bunch of supposedly cardiotoxic RC-stims in the last few years which likely have contributed to my condition (which is not perceivable at all).

I think the only way to find out, whether this study is legit or pro-synthetic-drugs-propaganda funded by pharma-enterprises is to ask people from Thailand or south east asia, that grew up in the natural Kratom habitat, whether they know about sudden fatalities caused by Kratom ingestion.

MENTALLY addicted, no physical addiction other than minor RLS that went away in seconds as so far keeping it to 3 times a week has worked and I'm quite confident I can keep it that way as long as I want...but in reality Mental addiction may be a bigger overall issue than physical dependence.

But yes, my reaction to this has absolutely made me acknowledge I have a STRONG mental dependency on Kratom.

I wish there were studies from Thailand.

I'm trying my best to wait and see what new evidence shows up.

I mean people smoke cigarettes everyday knowing that even if they quit they could STILL get heart disease from it and almost certainly I stand a better chance of dying in a car accident tomorrow than ever dying from Kratom usage (knock on wood) but it's the SUDDEN arrythymia shit that gets me over long term usage.

However, I looked up drugs that cause the same problem, and Errythromycin an anti-fungal antibiotic I've used in the past can do the same thing...albeit I don't take it weekly and will avoid using it in favor of more effective antibiotics again.

I don't think studies like this will shake those of us hear who have or do use heroin or hard opiates, which is a large number, because they are already aware that what they do is extremely dangerous, but for people like me who put this in the category of "safe" drugs along with weed, nitrous, and spaced out usage of alcohol, it comes as a bit of a shock.

 

[Mycophile]

Its something called the burden of proof.

And being skeptical doesnt = brushing something off.

Im the biggest worryer probably of anyone and even I am not moved to hysteria by this one.

Your claim about the long history of use of substances not meaning anything is very ill conceived. Its like trying to refute evolution.

Seems you havent done much research on kava either to just be spouting the most superficial propaganda.

I have been experimenting with kava recently agian myself and have had some worrying side effects from that in my mid section region so im glad to not touch that shit any more. But that is a case of negative side effects showing themselves making me stop and the effect of kava was so crap. though with kratom ive felt non so business as usual for me.

I can see both of your points, but the point he makes that is good is that we dont' have a lot of records from those thousands of years of usage from thais and we can be sure that many of them had heart problem-related deaths for one reason or another so how many came from Kratom we will never know.

On the one hand if people were dropping like flies over their I kind of suspect we MIGHT know by now...but it could certainly cause a significant % of heart related deaths among poor thai people and we might never know here.

There is sort of something to the idea of also weighing years its years usage amongst people in more "first world" countries because these are the countries that will fund studies that I doubt they do as often in a country like Thailand (I could be wrong).

That doesn't however mean COMPLETELY disregarding all those many years of usage in Thailand or Indonesia or Malaysia.

I just don't know.

I want to read more opinions (even from people who aren't "educated" in the sense of being doctors) before I can figure out where I stand on this.

Alcohol and cigarettes would still probably kill more people than Kratom even if the same number of people usage Kratom IMO...but again, we still can't know.

 

[Mycophile]

Your high daily caffeine intake is a much larger potential danger to the heart than dosing kratom 3x/week without a doubt. Chill out.....i'm sure you hear that a lot.

I'd LIKE to believe that is true, but I've never heard of sudden death from caffeine usage.

SOME studies say high caffeine use is problematic while others seem to say it's pretty much harmless.

Caffeine doesn't usually lead to death, even high doses.

Then again Kratom doesn't USUALLY either.


I really want to hear more people on here discuss this more to help me reason out my own opinions on it.

I REALLY don't want to quit.

There are SO many Kratom users on this board I am a bit annoyed/surprised by how few have shared their opinions on it so far.

Granted, it has only been one day since this was posted, but I'd think all Kratom users who don't want to die from heart damage would have SOME kind of opinion on the matter........


If you are a Kratom user on this board and haven't shared your opinion on this and whether or not it will likely lead to you quitting Kratom and why, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks

 

[TMNPothead]

Ill continue to use. Been using it for years with no ill effects

 

[JackARoe]

I won't pretend that I understand all of that study (in fact I gave up trying), but I was kind of thinking the same thing. I mean, kratom has been used by humans for like a thousand years or something. I feel like if people were actually dropping dead from kratom that more than a small minority of this country would be aware of the plant.

And I think that is why there has been no rush to ban kratom, the lack of major hospital visits or death. I know Seiko had mentioned that once and I have been saying that. If someone's kid ended up in critical condition because of kratom we'd have bandwagons of people crying "ban it!". The lack of any real hospital visits and data in that direction keeps it out of the limelight. But in my personal opinion having utilized kratom since 2005 that (for me) it is pretty safe. I just had a full on physical and came out ok. (well, slightly elevated cholesterol but who doesn't?)

Now all the pharmacuticals we see in commercials, or just pick up the side of a bag of Doritos and look at all the long words, doubtful there were controlled tests for all those things. And for sure some can be dangerous. But kratom the tree leaf is a natural substance that does have a history of use. If there were no history then we can worry more. Also it is an individual thing. How healthy are you and do you feel ok after kratom?

Such a personal thing. Nobody can say kratom is this or that for everybody. And most of the news articles have been sensational journalism. Know your own body. And I can say with confidence at this point if something worries someone sick it is better to not do it. The worry and fretting will kill you. Something can be very healthy but if the person taking it thinks it is not and worries then it is not healthy anymore. Again, pay attention to your body.

I am sort of a strange bird. I tend to think most opiates or opioids are safe except for the lack of availability. (I know, that is not entirely true)

 

[《Plasticity》]

Now, nobody should take what I'm gonna say as gospel (ahem, myco, looking at you bud ) I'm simply playing devils advocate and voicing my opinions here... Anywho, I see no doses listed and whatever mitrgagynine and friends are causing it is "dose dependant". Who's to say that the amount of alkaloid in an average dose of kratom is enough to produce any of these effects? When there have been no recorded deaths by cardiac arrest in a person with kratom in their system, the cause of death associated with arrhythmias, there are no doses listed, and these issues are dose dependant, it's hard for me to take this as groundbreaking news here.

If you've got the money it's not hard to fund a study searching for negatives, just megadose isolated chemicals not list the dose... that is not to say that's what's going on here though. These arrhythmias may be very real issues but that still doesn't prove that these are issues you're average kratom user will face, nobody is isolating chemicals and (I assume?) IV'ing them. Any kratom user will confirm how self limiting the plant is when it comes down to how much you can ingest.

When the conclusions say that mitrgagynine may potentiate Torada De Pointes that seems to insinuate that you have to be susceptable to this in the first place right? I'm not sure what that's about. Also, the deaths from mitragynine that are said to be from cardiac arrest are reffering to the isolated chemical. There have been no deaths from acute cardiac arrest linked to kratom. Being that the dose is what makes a poison I'm not convinced that these arrhythmias will ever be a problem for the average user. You can easily isolate thc from cannabis and induce a death if you shoot someone up with a megadose but we all know that you're not going to kill yourself by ingesting cannabis itself. There's just not nearly enough to go on and it's another one of those studies that brings up more questions than answers.

As always always it's best to err on the side of caution but quite frankly this isn't cut and dry enough to make me think twice about taking it. Nobody should make their choice based on my words though, that's your responsibility to draw your own conclusions. What I can say is that I've had 5 or 6 (that's correct, about 5-6) EKG's and a treadmill stress test done in the last two years, been using kratom for over 5 years, and none showed any arrhythmia's... all were done under the influence of kratom. In the hospital I was also hooked up to one of those machines that constantly monitors your heart rythym, nothing. I do have structural damage to my valves but that's another story, heavy abuse of strong 5-HT2B agonists will do that... and the damage done by these drugs is very unique. I'm not encouraging anyone to blow the study off, but this isn't gonna change my views or usage.

Just want to bring this too everyones attention: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25535742

Kratom may cause the life threatening arrythmia torsades de pointes

To be fair the results of the study say that mitragynine may potentiate Torsade de Pointes rather than cause it, whether it was just poor choice of words I'm not sure...

 

[nealcassady]

I'm in my 9th year of kratom use. With 7 consecutive years of daily use. I brought myself out of daily use last year because of physical and mental addiction, and of course - because of cost.

I was diagnosed with high blood pressure prior to learning about kratom. Kratom has never had a significant impact on my BP. Indirectly, euphoria could lead me to being more physically active, which then increases BP, but that is besides the point.

Correlation does not equal causation, but I have also never gotten a cold or flu in the past decade. Chalk it up to being around the right people, or washing my hands, or a good immune system, or whatever else; but I can't ignore the fact that I continue to take quality plain leaf kratom, and have yet to discover any abnormalities with my physician.

A sixth month stint on benzos affected my memory in more ways than I could ever have imagined; I've yet to find a direct long-term circumstance such as that with my kratom use. Daily UEI use took my body through classical opioid withdrawal symptoms. Mental addiction can be a long-term consequence for sure, but physically: within 9 months I felt that my brain's reward system and my body were back to normal.

 

[Mycophile]

There are no doses listed and whatever mitrgagynine and friends are causing it is "dose dependant". Who's to say that the amount of alkaloid in an average dose of kratom is enough to produce any of these effects? When there have been no recorded deaths by cardiac arrest in a person with kratom in their system, the cause of death associated with arrhythmias, there are no doses listed, and these issues are dose dependant, it's hard for me to take this as groundbreaking news here. If you've got the money it's not hard to fund a study searching for negatives, just megadose isolated chemicals not list the dose.

When they say that deaths from mitragynine are from cardiac arrest, they're reffering to the isolated chemical. There have been no deaths from acute cardiac arrest linked to kratom. Being that the dose is what makes a poison I'm not convinced that these are issues a plain leaf kratom user will ever face. You can easily isolate thc from cannabis and induce a death if you shoot someone up with a megadose but we all know that you're not going to kill yourself by ingesting cannabis itself. There's just not nearly enough to go on and it's another one of those studies that brings up more questions than answers.

As always always it's best to err on the side of caution but quite frankly this isn't cut and dry enough to make me think twice about taking it. I've had 5 or 6 EKG's and a treadmill stress test done in the last two years, been using kratom for over 5 years, and none showed any arrhythmia's... all were done under the influence of kratom. I do have structural damage to my valves but that's another story, heavy abuse of strong 5-HT2B agonists will do that... and the damage done by these drugs is very unique. I'm not encouraging anyone to blow the study off, but I'm not convinced at all...


To be fair the results of the study say that mitragynine may potentiate Torsade de Pointes, not cause it.

Thanks for the fair and well thought out assessment Plasticity.

Based on what you are saying I feel that this will probably not be enough evidence for me to stop taking it YET but I want to stay abreast of these studies and be 100% HONEST WITH MYSELF about the dangers and I think it is important that more are done.

If any studies come out that really STRONGLY correlate PLAIN LEAF USAGE IN VIVO with these kinds of dangers I'm gonna have to say goodbye to Kratom and I think most would be wise to do so, but I don't think we are there quite yet and hopefully we won't ever be there...but all substances have dangers and this stuff is still largely LESS tested than some.

I considered the same "dose dependent" argument as well.

I remember being told in biology class in high school by my professor that like one PURE INCREDIBLY small amount of nicotine (forget the amount) could immediately cause seizure or even death and that he'd played a trick by placing a MINUTE amount on his friend and his friend nearly had a seizure.

That's not the same as smoking a cigarette, which is of course also dangerous, but not in the same scope.

But I think it is important that none of us brush these studies under the rug and I really like that you aren't doing that but are thinking this through the way I'd expect such an intelligent poster/moderator to do.

I remember you DIDN'T brush the accounts of jaundice experienced by some users under the rug and told others who were doing so that they shouldn't either, but that it probably had more to do with an underlying condition...and I really liked that.

I guess in the end there is still so much more we don't know and more studies need to be done, but as you said they are talking about the ISOLATED CHEMICAL in a lab.

That's kind of like the difference between a sip of beer and a shot of 160 proof moonshine...or maybe even a much bigger difference.

I'll be checking up on this to see what more people have to say, but I think more studies need to be done and that this one alone is not the final word on Kratom and whether or not plain leaf which has lower concentrations of mitragynine than used in this study IN VITRO is truly anywhere near as cardio toxic used IN VIVO.

 

[nealcassady]

Does anyone else have any experience with immunity to colds and kratom use? IE My spouse will get sick and I won't. For as long as I have been taking kratom, I've avoided the illness that went around the office and the classroom. Can anyone relate?