Opioids Kratom. How helpful can it be?

[sekio]

Kratom doesn't really give you any euphoria,

When I was using it, it certainly did. It is, after all, an opioid full agonist.

I have a sneaking suspicion that your kratom capsules are probably not as active as they should be (could be inferior quality material, could be old material, could have been stored improperly). I have read that generally speaking, "commercial" pre-capsulated kratom has a bad reputation and can often be minimally active or inactive at all.
I would recommend finding a well regarded ethnobotany supplier who can supply large-ish amounts of the pre-ground leaf. Capsule it up yourself and store it in the fridge for best shelf life (but it's best to use it all within 30 days or so). (BL does not allow posting/discussing sources sadly)

users get just as addicted to it, as if it were real dope. Then withdrawal is awful, if you stop. Why!!! I don't get it.

This is how every opioid works, sadly. It is, however, dose related: if you use large amounts of kratom or use it more frequently, you will have a harder time of it than if you use small doses, less frequently.
Same as how withdrawal from 20mg of hydrocodone daily may seem awful, but it could be far, far worse if you were (for instance) abusing large amounts of street fentanyl, or taking 100mg morphine or more per day or something.

Also, I hate to tell you, using opioids is a pretty poor anti-depressant in terms of sustainability.
I would actually recommend finding somewhere that could try ketamine therapy with you. There is more robust evidence that NMDA antagonists can be effective antidepressants with effects that last long after the drug has been eliminated. You could even acquire some nitrous oxide from whipped cream chargers and see how that makes you feel (short lasting NMDA antagonist).

 

[jasperkent]

I'm real disappointed in kratom. So it goes like this: Kratom doesn't really give you any euphoria, but users get just as addicted to it, as if it were real dope. Then withdrawal is awful, if you stop.

1. I think you got some inferior product.
2. Kratom affects everyone differently.
3. While I don't exactly get euphoria from kratom, it most definitely elevates my mood.
4. I've gone through WD from several different drugs, including oxycodone, and WD from kratom is nothing compared to the others-- all I got was insomnia, no dopesickness.

 

[The Shadow Self]

Kratom can be a savior. I used it to get off an out of hand Fent situation, and it was a godsend, for sure. And of course getting the dose down with good Kratom is the key.

 

[DesertHarp]

1. I think you got some inferior product.
2. Kratom affects everyone differently.
3. While I don't exactly get euphoria from kratom, it most definitely elevates my mood.
4. I've gone through WD from several different drugs, including oxycodone, and WD from kratom is nothing compared to the others-- all I got was insomnia, no dopesickness.

Thanks very much for that feedback. Yes, someone else above mentioned that capsules are not that reliable. I got them for convenience, as a new user. I will try a different source, if I order again.

I take my legal supply of hydrocodone, to which I am addicted and dependent. I get enough to manage my back pain, which isn't really bad. I like my tablets for the little boost I get mentally, though not as good as it used to be. I can't get a bigger supply because my provider can see that my back issue is not a big deal. I'm lucky to get what I get - 60 tablets/month. My hope was that kratom might help stretch this supply. If I go 36 hours without hydrocodone, I get restless leg syndrome that will not let me lie down for 10 minutes. Once in a while, I use up my prescription ahead of schedule. Next time that happens, I'll try this kratom to see if it stops the RLS. I don't plan on letting that happen, but once in a while, I screw up.

I do think about seeking out more medical help with these depressive episodes, but I've done that to death in the past.

 

[DesertHarp]

I was hoping that kratom would feel more like hydrocodone. It doesn't. That's probably not a good reason to completely give up on the kratom.

I do hear that some users say it lifts their mood. I'll take any lift I can get. Maybe if I take it daily, but I want to avoid getting addicted to kratom.

 

[jasperkent]

I was hoping that kratom would feel more like hydrocodone. It doesn't. That's probably not a good reason to completely give up on the kratom.

I do hear that some users say it lifts their mood. I'll take any lift I can get. Maybe if I take it daily, but I want to avoid getting addicted to kratom.

I have to take about 6 to 7 grams to get a mood lift and it only lasts about 3 hours. I do have quite a tolerance at this point, but even when I first started taking it I required about 4 grams to feel much of anything.

 

[DesertHarp]

I have to take about 6 to 7 grams to get a mood lift and it only lasts about 3 hours. I do have quite a tolerance at this point, but even when I first started taking it I required about 4 grams to feel much of anything.

Thanks for those specifics. The other day I took 12 capsules, so that was 6 grams. I felt woozy, but not really with any mood improvement. Shortly thereafter, I fell asleep. I hesitate to do that now because I don't want to fall back asleep. Maybe, i f I took kratom more often, I might get tolerant of the sleepy effect. A lift in mood is no good to me, if I'm not awake to enjoy it.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Don't write it off until you've had good kratom. The difference between good and bad kratom is literally night and day.

Low quality bulk crap you won't feel anything other than a headache and nausea.

 

[Mjäll]

For me kratom builds slowly, i guess from metabolism of mitragynine -> 7-HO-mitragynine -> mitragynine pseudoindoxyl, increasing in Mu affinity. Your story sounds to me like you slept through the main part of the high.

However, i also get some immediate effects that are more subtle and stimulating. These effects may be more individual than the opioid chill.

What works for me is staggering doses throughout the day, beginning with a moderate amount and then refilling with decreasing doses and increasing time intervals until another sip seems completely unappetizing. That will reliably be the point of maximal return on investment. Toal dose will be in the 7-20g range, typically 12 or so across a similar number of hours. It's a drug that really shines when used to enhance all aspects of a whole day, but preferably not the days after that because of addiction potential and crude non-edible plant ingestion concerns.

Best way of getting the stuff in is as a concentrated sludge, stirred before every sip and chased with loads of water. Caps could be good but i value the sensory feedback of sipping the sludge and getting increasingly turned off by its taste. It's a nice OD prevention mechanism similar to that which can be developed with alcohol (although with far milder nausea and general toxicity) at least when one is past reckless youth. Also, as stated previously, pre-capped stuff is likely to be of lesser quality than bulk powder that will inevitably be inspected.

 

[DesertHarp]

Don't write it off until you've had good kratom. The difference between good and bad kratom is literally night and day.

Low quality bulk crap you won't feel anything other than a headache and nausea.

What I got were capsules. The vendor was praised in reviews that I read. The container has an expiration date that says 6/25. The label says to sore at room temperature. It says the variety is "red maeng da." I realize none of that is proof of quality. The stuff I have may be of good quality . . . or not, for all I know. It wasn't cheap. Again, I realize that's no guarantee.

I guess in life there's just no easy answer.

 

[Mjäll]

What I got were capsules. The vendor was praised in reviews that I read. The container has an expiration date that says 6/25. The label says to sore at room temperature. It says the variety is "red maeng da." I realize none of that is proof of quality. The stuff I have may be of good quality . . . or not, for all I know. It wasn't cheap. Again, I realize that's no guarantee.

I guess in life there's just no easy answer.

Have you tried buying green or white in bulk? Also did you read reviews on the vendor page or elsewhere? Maybe need to look elsewhere for true ratings. This is not the place for sourcing ofc but i hope you get some useful suggestions.

 

[DesertHarp]

For me kratom builds slowly, i guess from metabolism of mitragynine -> 7-HO-mitragynine -> mitragynine pseudoindoxyl, increasing in Mu affinity. Your story sounds to me like you slept through the main part of the high.

However, i also get some immediate effects that are more subtle and stimulating. These effects may be more individual than the opioid chill.

What works for me is staggering doses throughout the day, beginning with a moderate amount and then refilling with decreasing doses and increasing time intervals until another sip seems completely unappetizing. That will reliably be the point of maximal return on investment. Toal dose will be in the 7-20g range, typically 12 or so across a similar number of hours. It's a drug that really shines when used to enhance all aspects of a whole day, but preferably not the days after that because of addiction potential and crude non-edible plant ingestion concerns.

Best way of getting the stuff in is as a concentrated sludge, stirred before every sip and chased with loads of water. Caps could be good but i value the sensory feedback of sipping the sludge and getting increasingly turned off by its taste. It's a nice OD prevention mechanism similar to that which can be developed with alcohol (although with far milder nausea and general toxicity) at least when one is past reckless youth. Also, as stated previously, pre-capped stuff is likely to be of lesser quality than bulk powder that will inevitably be inspected.

Thanks for sharing what works for you. I guess there must be some payoff, or users wouldn't go to this much trouble.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Maybe need to look elsewhere for true ratings.

Right, you can never trust ratings posted in the vendor website. A lot of kratom vendors are very deceptive in that regard, only show their positive or fake reviews, and a lot of reviews are from people who don't know what they're talking about.

All the best vendors I know do not post reviews on their own website. Seems backwards, but it's what I've noticed.

 

[DesertHarp]

Right, you can never trust ratings posted in the vendor website. A lot of kratom vendors are very deceptive in that regard, only show their positive or fake reviews, and a lot of reviews are from people who don't know what they're talking about.

All the best vendors I know do not post reviews on their own website. Seems backwards, but it's what I've noticed.

I don't put much stock in reviews offered by the vendor. Someone I know worked at a restaurant where employees were given tabs on a free drink everytime they posted a nice review on their dining experience at the place. I look for articles that compare and contrast competitors in a market. I do realize that the Internet is drenched with seemingly objective feedback that is bogus. That's why I value and feel grateful for your tip.

 

[DesertHarp]

Have you tried buying green or white in bulk? Also did you read reviews on the vendor page or elsewhere? Maybe need to look elsewhere for true ratings. This is not the place for sourcing ofc but i hope you get some useful suggestions.

No, I've not bought anything but the capsules. I look for reviews from 3rd parties with some claim to credibility. I guess there's restriction on what members of this site can share. But with enough looking around, I think I can figure out who are the leaders in the pack. In this capitalist system, success tends to go to those who offer a product that satisfies. (Not always, though.) So I look at the quality of the website. The variety of products offered. If the vendor seems to be moving a large volume of product, I figure that means something. (It might not mean something good.) Mainly, I don't want to get something dangerous, like contaminated by other drugs or by pathogenic bacteria. So I might avoid vendors that don't seem well-known.

 

[Bytor_and_the_snowdog]

how do you think kratom would help to get off a 6 month suboxone use.
use 2-3mg a day - but want off bad. but due to my high profile job, i cant just stop. i travel a lot snd i also do public speaking for my job.
any suggestions? kratom seems interesting from what im reading - but would it work for subs at the dossge and time i have been on

 

[SuperPsych]

how do you think kratom would help to get off a 6 month suboxone use.
use 2-3mg a day - but want off bad. but due to my high profile job, i cant just stop. i travel a lot snd i also do public speaking for my job.
any suggestions? kratom seems interesting from what im reading - but would it work for subs at the dossge and time i have been on

That's what I'm currently doing. I was able to switch from suboxone to kratom with little discomfort. The first few days we're roughish but I was still able to go to work and everything. I had been on Suboxone for almost 2 years, having gone up to 16mg/day. I tapered down to 1-2mg before switching to kratom.

Is your ultimate goal to get off of suboxone and opioids in general? I had heard that suboxone was an easy taper but once I got to 1mg, lowering my dose any amount was pretty unpleasant. Unfortunately to help cover the WD from Suboxone and break through enough to help make the switch, I was basically just shoveling as much Kratom as I needed to feel comfortable. I imagine I was at 15g/ day or more to help get past suboxone.

Some people find Kratom easy to taper, some don't. I am one who can't taper it successfully. My dose just goes up and up. My goal was to switch to kratom for a while then hop back on suboxone at .5mg or less then taper, but that didn't work for me. So now my plan is to use kratom about 2 months out from my last Suboxone dose, as people say the initial WD from bupe is about 30 days. Once I feel safe that the 2 years of suboxone is out of my system, I will attempt to cold turkey Kratom. Since I struggle with tapers my options are a 30 day withdrawal from Buperenorphine cold-turkey or a 4-5 day withdrawal from Kratom.

So I am currently stocking up on comfort meds until I can find a time where I can afford to take 4 days off of work to just lay in bed and push through. The comfort meds I plan on getting are : Clonidine, Gabapentin or preferably Pregablin, Carisoprodol, Dissociatives (3-ho-pcp, FXE, Ketamine most likely), and maybe a stimulant of some sort. Probably loperaminde as well in case the diarrhea gets bad, and maybe 1 or 2 doses of a benzo if there are nights that I absolutely cant sleep and on a night I dont plan to use the Carisoprodol.

Personally, I think if you're able to then tapering off of Suboxone is your best bet. Kratom doesn't last long, so to avoid daytime WD you will have to take Kratom at your high profile job. Regardless of if it's legal, swallowing spoonfuls of powder or taking a handful of capsules might not be the look you're going for. If you're like me and unable to taper Suboxone successfully then I say Kratom is worth a try.

Also, I know a lot of people like to convince themselves that it's not, but Kratom is rather addictive. I actually got onto Suboxone initially due to Kratom use that I couldn't control. Ultimately you're trading one physical dependence for another, it's just a matter of finding one that has fewer side effects and that you can handle better.

Best of luck in whatever you decide

 

[Bytor_and_the_snowdog]

That's what I'm currently doing. I was able to switch from suboxone to kratom with little discomfort. The first few days we're roughish but I was still able to go to work and everything. I had been on Suboxone for almost 2 years, having gone up to 16mg/day. I tapered down to 1-2mg before switching to kratom.

Is your ultimate goal to get off of suboxone and opioids in general? I had heard that suboxone was an easy taper but once I got to 1mg, lowering my dose any amount was pretty unpleasant. Unfortunately to help cover the WD from Suboxone and break through enough to help make the switch, I was basically just shoveling as much Kratom as I needed to feel comfortable. I imagine I was at 15g/ day or more to help get past suboxone.

Some people find Kratom easy to taper, some don't. I am one who can't taper it successfully. My dose just goes up and up. My goal was to switch to kratom for a while then hop back on suboxone at .5mg or less then taper, but that didn't work for me. So now my plan is to use kratom about 2 months out from my last Suboxone dose, as people say the initial WD from bupe is about 30 days. Once I feel safe that the 2 years of suboxone is out of my system, I will attempt to cold turkey Kratom. Since I struggle with tapers my options are a 30 day withdrawal from Buperenorphine cold-turkey or a 4-5 day withdrawal from Kratom.

So I am currently stocking up on comfort meds until I can find a time where I can afford to take 4 days off of work to just lay in bed and push through. The comfort meds I plan on getting are : Clonidine, Gabapentin or preferably Pregablin, Carisoprodol, Dissociatives (3-ho-pcp, FXE, Ketamine most likely), and maybe a stimulant of some sort. Probably loperaminde as well in case the diarrhea gets bad, and maybe 1 or 2 doses of a benzo if there are nights that I absolutely cant sleep and on a night I dont plan to use the Carisoprodol.

Personally, I think if you're able to then tapering off of Suboxone is your best bet. Kratom doesn't last long, so to avoid daytime WD you will have to take Kratom at your high profile job. Regardless of if it's legal, swallowing spoonfuls of powder or taking a handful of capsules might not be the look you're going for. If you're like me and unable to taper Suboxone successfully then I say Kratom is worth a try.

Also, I know a lot of people like to convince themselves that it's not, but Kratom is rather addictive. I actually got onto Suboxone initially due to Kratom use that I couldn't control. Ultimately you're trading one physical dependence for another, it's just a matter of finding one that has fewer side effects and that you can handle better.

Best of luck in whatever you decide

appreciate that. i have going for me i suppose is my dose of subs isnt that high - as is the time i been on compared to some others like yourself. i also have oxys and percs on hand if i choose to taper with those from subs. the thing with me is i prob didnt really need the subs. i only used oxy for 6-8 months at 60-80mg a day and other times i would use percs. when i finally said i had enough my brother of all people told me about subs. this is all new to me. i took oxy initially for a substitue to alcohol for when i had gatherings etc. i prob only needed to stay on subs for a week or 2 the most - but i never came off because i always have something going on whether its work, travel, workouts etc. i have a hectic life.
i prefer to use kratom since its prob the least addicting to come off my subs. i will eventually taper down to 1mg for a few weeks and jump on something and then either deal with those sides for a few days rather than subs for weeks. seems the logical thing to do, but will it work.
i wonder why the subs didnt work again for you.
does my situation sound easy enough to pull off with not too much difficulty?
im really confused on how to go about this - but in the meantime im tapering slowly
appreciate your insight

 

[SuperPsych]

appreciate that. i have going for me i suppose is my dose of subs isnt that high - as is the time i been on compared to some others like yourself. i also have oxys and percs on hand if i choose to taper with those from subs. the thing with me is i prob didnt really need the subs. i only used oxy for 6-8 months at 60-80mg a day and other times i would use percs. when i finally said i had enough my brother of all people told me about subs. this is all new to me. i took oxy initially for a substitue to alcohol for when i had gatherings etc. i prob only needed to stay on subs for a week or 2 the most - but i never came off because i always have something going on whether its work, travel, workouts etc. i have a hectic life.
i prefer to use kratom since its prob the least addicting to come off my subs. i will eventually taper down to 1mg for a few weeks and jump on something and then either deal with those sides for a few days rather than subs for weeks. seems the logical thing to do, but will it work.
i wonder why the subs didnt work again for you.
does my situation sound easy enough to pull off with not too much difficulty?
im really confused on how to go about this - but in the meantime im tapering slowly
appreciate your insight

It's not exactly that the subs didn't work for me the second time, it's that I still found it very hard to reduce my dosage, making a taper extremely difficulty for me.

That's the sad thing about Suboxone to me. There are a lot of instances where using it for 1-3 weeks rapidly reducing the dose would help someone like you where you were using opioids for less than a year, and now you've been on Suboxone as long as you we're what you were trying to get away from. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. Suboxone is much more sustainable and doesnt get in the way of life like Oxy or other opioids. Looking back I wish I hadn't gone over 4mg and only used it for a couple of weeks, considering I was using it to get off of kratom which is a relatively weak opioid.

Every time I'd talk to my doctor with the intention of lowering my dose, they'd somehow convince me to stay on my current dose for the next 2 weekks before my next appointment. And then the same thing 2 weeks later. Suboxone is best for hardcore addicts for long term maintenance. It's a great drug for people who don't feel like they can ever be opioid free, and it's saved countless lives.

If I understand your plan, you plan on tapering down to 1mg of suboxone, staying at that dose for a few weeks and then transferring to Kratom? If so then that should be doable and fairly painless. Just listen to your body and if you need to slow down the taper then do so. The goal is to get off completely if I understand, right? So make sure it's done right, even if it takes longer. I switched from Suboxone to kratom around 1mg and it was fine. When I was maintaining through the day on 1mg of Suboxone, I stopped it completely and replaced it with Kratom. As I said, the first 4 days or so was a bit uncomfortable, and I needed a lot of kratom to push through the Bupe lingering in my receptors, but Kratom helped my withdrawal symptoms enough that I was able to sleep and go to work and everything I needed to do.

If you plan on tapering Kratom eventually, I'd recommend trying to find the lowest dose possible for you to avoid withdrawal and try your best not to go over it. Don't try to chase a high with kratom. To the opioid naive Kratom can be pretty good, but trust me, after 6 months of suboxone you wont be feeling a high. Even after the suboxone works its way out of your system. So just try to view Kratom as a maitenance med and use it as such. As a tool to avoid withdrawal, not as a means to get high.

 

[DesertHarp]

how do you think kratom would help to get off a 6 month suboxone use.
use 2-3mg a day - but want off bad. but due to my high profile job, i cant just stop. i travel a lot snd i also do public speaking for my job.
any suggestions? kratom seems interesting from what im reading - but would it work for subs at the dossge and time i have been on

I'm the wrong person to ask because I'm brand new to using kratom. Sometimes I experience withdrawal from hydrocodone. Next time that happens, I'm going to see if kratom can ease the restless leg syndrome that comes on me when I withdraw.

I hope other members can help you with what you're asking. Good luck with getting off Suboxone.