Opioids Kratom. How helpful can it be?

[DesertHarp]

I'm hoping kratom might help me. I take Vicodin (hydrocodone and acetaminophen.) It's for back pain, but I often take it to fight off depression. Now it's coming toward the end of my 30 day supply of hydrocodone. I did get a jar of kraton capsules. It might help my mental state. I hear that kraton can ease withdrawal, when I use up my Vicodin too fast.

Today I've been in an awful state. Have any of you had any success using kratom? I'm going to take some now. I'm desperate to not feel so bad.

 

[sekio]

Well, it does contain mitragynine, which is a prodrug[ref] for 7-hydroxymitragynine which rearranges to mitragynine pseudoindoxyl, which is the active opioid in question.[ref] Kratom is well known for substituting for opioids.

It should help you, that is, as long as it contains actually active kratom. (sometimes commercial kratom capsules contain low quality/old material that may not be very active) Although it is not as potent as a hydrocodone pill, and you may need to take quite a few capsules: a "stimulating" dose is anywhere from 1 to 5 grams of the crushed leaf, and sedative effects may need 5 to 15 grams.

It is usually better to find a supplier for the crushed leaf and cap it yourself, the fresher the better. Strain does not seem to matter much; in my analysis they mostly contained similar alkaloids. (BL does not allow posting sources or discussing them in PM though).

I myself have used kratom, usually at the 10-15g level, for painkilling purposes. Aside from needing to consume large amounts of bitter leaf, it was quite effective. I actually purchased mine from a funky ethnobotany store within a sort of headshop, locally.

 

[Innerpeace]

I don't use opioids but it definitely can help mood like if overly tired, burnt out from too much work or physical activity.

 

[DesertHarp]

The caps I've got are supposed to contain 2.5 grams each. I saw the brand mentioned in some articles on best sources. That guarantees nothing, but I had to start somewhere.

I appreciate your feedback. Thanks for the specifics you shared. First day I got it, I took 2 capsules. No effect. A few days later I took a heftier dose by far. A few hours later I felt maybe a little more relaxed. I didn't have any nausea or any other bad effects. I believe what I took was 15 grams (6 capsules,) which I guess should be a substantial dose. I did sleep pretty good a few hours after taking it. I'm habituated to hydrocodone. So maybe that makes me also more tolerant of the kratom?

Thanks for explaining about the freshness.

 

[Dead Machination]

Kratom helps me stay off of other, more serious opiates. I would say that it has a ceiling effect as well, over 10-15g (depending on batch), gives me the spins and a stomachache.

I get the "equivalent" to about 50mg of morphine of "relief" from a good kratom dose. It helps with withdrawals, and seems to have a blocking effect similar to bupe, making it harder to get high while using it. Personally, I love the stuff, it's saved my life, for sure.

 

[Dead Machination]

The caps I've got are supposed to contain 2.5 grams each.

I would double check that. Most of the big 00 capsules don't even hold a gram. Are you sure it's not 2.5g per serving?

 

[DesertHarp]

Well, it does contain mitragynine, which is a prodrug[ref] for 7-hydroxymitragynine which rearranges to mitragynine pseudoindoxyl, which is the active opioid in question.[ref] Kratom is well known for substituting for opioids.

It should help you, that is, as long as it contains actually active kratom. (sometimes commercial kratom capsules contain low quality/old material that may not be very active) Although it is not as potent as a hydrocodone pill, and you may need to take quite a few capsules: a "stimulating" dose is anywhere from 1 to 5 grams of the crushed leaf, and sedative effects may need 5 to 15 grams.

It is usually better to find a supplier for the crushed leaf and cap it yourself, the fresher the better. Strain does not seem to matter much; in my analysis they mostly contained similar alkaloids. (BL does not allow posting sources or discussing them in PM though).

I myself have used kratom, usually at the 10-15g level, for painkilling purposes. Aside from needing to consume large amounts of bitter leaf, it was quite effective. I actually purchased mine from a funky ethnobotany store within a sort of headshop, locally.

If 10 to 15 gm is enough to relieve pain, then I guess I don't need to go beyond that.

 

[DesertHarp]

Kratom helps me stay off of other, more serious opiates. I would say that it has a ceiling effect as well, over 10-15g (depending on batch), gives me the spins and a stomachache.

I get the "equivalent" to about 50mg of morphine of "relief" from a good kratom dose. It helps with withdrawals, and seems to have a blocking effect similar to bupe, making it harder to get high while using it. Personally, I love the stuff, it's saved my life, for sure.

That's interesting about the "ceiling." I tolerated a dose of 15 grams. I felt a bit of a swaying sensation when I stood up. I wouldn't drive in the state I was in.

 

[sekio]

How much hydrocodone, in particular, were you using, and how often?

Different people have differing tolerances to the side effects of Kratom (usually mild stimulation) and opioids in general. And different batches can contain different concentrations of alkaloids (sort of like cannabis: even within a grow using clones of one strain, every plant and even different buds on the same plant can have slightly different amounts of THC, and between different strains and growers it can vary widely from almost none (CBD flower/hemp) to over 30% by weight. (Also, IME, there is no real difference between 'indica' and 'sativa' today: they both contain large amounts of THC and almost no CBD, in general.)

It wouldn't hurt combining it with 25-50mg of diphenhydramine if you are using it to sleep and/or want to potentiate the sedative/narcotic effects and/or reduce nausea.

 

[DesertHarp]

I would double check that. Most of the big 00 capsules don't even hold a gram. Are you sure it's not 2.5g per serving?

Thank you so very much for setting me straight on that!! It's 2.5 grams per serving of 5 capsules. I get easily mixed up with numbers. So my capsules would be 1/2 gram each. I have to make a chart for this. Also I better log exactly how many caps I take.

 

[DesertHarp]

I think the other day I took 12 capsules making 6 grams. I definitely have to write down what I do.

 

[DesertHarp]

How much hydrocodone, in particular, were you using, and how often?

Different people have differing tolerances to the side effects of Kratom (usually mild stimulation) and opioids in general. And different batches can contain different concentrations of alkaloids (sort of like cannabis: even within a grow using clones of one strain, every plant and even different buds on the same plant can have slightly different amounts of THC, and between different strains and growers it can vary widely from almost none (CBD flower/hemp) to over 30% by weight. (Also, IME, there is no real difference between 'indica' and 'sativa' today: they both contain large amounts of THC and almost no CBD, in general.)

It wouldn't hurt combining it with 25-50mg of diphenhydramine if you are using it to sleep and/or want to potentiate the sedative/narcotic effects and/or reduce nausea.

I take 10 mg of hydrocodone twice each day. After years of taking that, I am dependent on it. If I stop, I get withdrawal in 36 hours after last dose.

 

[sekio]

To be honest, despite your opioid addiction, 20mg of oral hydrocodone daily is not actually all that severe of a drug problem, all things considered,
I am sure the withdrawals are very unpleasant though.

That said, kratom can be a much more powerful opioid than 10mg of hydrocodone at higher doses. For your own sanity I advise you to find the lowest dose that allows you to function, and take it as infrequently as possible. Keeping a log of how much you take, when you take it, and the effects experienced (even a quick summary) will be invaluable in controlling your dosage. After all, kratom is an opioid like any other, and can produce or worsen tolerance and dependency if misused (say, for recreation, or for producing stronger effects than your hydrocodone).
The last thing you want is to use kratom for a short while, feel really good, then as soon as you refill your hydrocodone, are horrified to discover 10mg no longer is as effective, because your tolerance has increased due to kratom overuse.

Can you talk to your doctor and explain that you need more medication to control your pain? That may be a more sustainable and safer option.

 

[DesertHarp]

To be honest, despite your opioid addiction, 20mg of oral hydrocodone daily is not actually all that severe of a drug problem, all things considered,
I am sure the withdrawals are very unpleasant though.

That said, kratom can be a much more powerful opioid than 10mg of hydrocodone at higher doses. For your own sanity I advise you to find the lowest dose that allows you to function, and take it as infrequently as possible. Keeping a log of how much you take, when you take it, and the effects experienced (even a quick summary) will be invaluable in controlling your dosage. After all, kratom is an opioid like any other, and can produce or worsen tolerance and dependency if misused (say, for recreation, or for producing stronger effects than your hydrocodone).
The last thing you want is to use kratom for a short while, feel really good, then as soon as you refill your hydrocodone, are horrified to discover 10mg no longer is as effective, because your tolerance has increased due to kratom overuse.

Can you talk to your doctor and explain that you need more medication to control your pain? That may be a more sustainable and safer option.

It's true that I don't have a severe addiction problem. What I use is legal. I don't need more drug to manage pain. I don't have much pain. I have a problem with depression. I'm desperate to get relief from depression.

 

[DesertHarp]

It's true that I don't have a severe addiction problem. What I use is legal. I don't need more drug to manage pain. I don't have much pain. I have a problem with depression. I'm desperate to get relief from depression.

I hear what you are saying about the problem of developing more tolerance.

What I took last night did help me sleep . . . . for a couple hours.

 

[DesertHarp]

Last night I took 4 caps of kratom (2 mg) and 3 THC gummies. I got plenty of sleep. I'm not sure which did what. I better get systematic with this stuff, or I'll have no idea what I'm doing. Wanting to escape depression had me frantic.

I don't want to get addicted to kratom. I don't think it can make me feel good enough to be worth it.

 

[DesertHarp]

I don't have an actual doctor. I have a P.A. as my primary care provider. Physician's assistant. I stick with her because she prescribes the Vicodin. I've tried to tell her that I have a mental health problem. I've been on an antidepressant since forever. She prescribes it. It's better than nothing. In the past I was tried on a bunch of psychotropics over and over. Useless stuff.

 

[jasperkent]

I'm hoping kratom might help me...

It certainly helped me. I was taking 100mg to 200mg oxycodone and/or hydrocodone daily for several years. I quit abruptly, using Red Bali kratom. My withdrawal symptoms were almost nonexistent. I didn't miss a day of work.
Three years later I'm still taking kratom daily (by choice) without any perceptible bad side effects. I take mostly green vein (energy for work), but red vein is best for initially getting off script opioids. I no longer have any desire for the pills that used to dominate my life. I've dabbled with oxycodone once but it was disappointing-- kratom mostly blocked the effects. Good!
You might want to check this out:

American Kratom Association

www.americankratom.org

edit--- For me, kratom also relieves anxiety and depression. YMMV, as it affects everyone a little differently. Always take the lowest dosage that provides relief. I take less now than I did initially.

 

[DesertHarp]

It certainly helped me. I was taking 100mg to 200mg oxycodone and/or hydrocodone daily for several years. I quit abruptly, using Red Bali kratom. My withdrawal symptoms were almost nonexistent. I didn't miss a day of work.
Three years later I'm still taking kratom daily (by choice) without any perceptible bad side effects. I take mostly green vein (energy for work), but red vein is best for initially getting off script opioids. I no longer have any desire for the pills that used to dominate my life. I've dabbled with oxycodone once but it was disappointing-- kratom mostly blocked the effects. Good!
You might want to check this out:

American Kratom Association

www.americankratom.org

edit--- For me, kratom also relieves anxiety and depression. YMMV, as it affects everyone a little differently. Always take the lowest dosage that provides relief. I take less now than I did initially.

I'm astonished by your story. Your opioid intake was 10 X mine. Yet kratom got rid of withdrawal symptoms. In a day of two, I may be in wthdwl. I hope kratom can ease that for me.

 

[DesertHarp]

Well I'm down to my last few Vicodins. I'm stretching them. I hope to get another month's worth on Friday. That's iffy. The refill might not come through till Monday. The prescriber, the pharmacist and the insurance company all have to agree on the refill date. Every month I go through this anxiety.

I'm real disappointed in kratom. So it goes like this: Kratom doesn't really give you any euphoria, but users get just as addicted to it, as if it were real dope. Then withdrawal is awful, if you stop. Why!!! I don't get it. Why shovel dirt into your gut for that? Between kratom and edibles, I've slept a lot. But I'm miserable when I'm awake.

I don't know what to do next.