Yeah I’ll update from time to time. That kratom has made me feel really jittery. I just went to the supermarket and grabbed a load of loperamide. The last withdrawal I had was quite mild and the only thing I did different that time was take around 20 X 2mg loperamide before bed every night for the first few nights. Hoping that’s the key and that if I do the same this time I’ll have another mild one. Fingers crossed!!!All the very best MrManners, you can do this!Feel free to keep us updated.
Need Help Kratom for Codeine withdrawal
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Jabberwocky
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It looks like your tolerance to opioids is too high at the moment for something like kratom to cover it, so it doesn't help with opioid part and as kratom is complex plant it is making you more anxious with it's stimulating part of action. I am not advising, as tapering on original medication is always better if possible than introduction of other addictive substances...but if you have trouble down the road with codeine, maybe try different strain and higher amount of kratom. Something like "plain" Red Bali, with dosages in the range 6-10G (depending on your tolerance and potency of kratom you are taking) 3×4 times a say. In my experience Red Thai Maeng Da is more stimulating and lasts a bit less.
With all that said it would be best if you could taper codeine and stop without replacing. There is also possibility of pregabalin/gabapentin use as comfort meds, but if you have addictive personality and are not "just dependent", that could open its own Pandoras box.
Hope you figure this one out and do what is the best for you.
I was heavily addicted to codeine for many years too and got clean off it many times. It's not fun but it's doable. It would be less painful if you taper down first. You know what you're in for though you got this.
Nurse Ratched
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Same here. Codeine was actually my first Script and it was the T-4's. They worked great for pain but they tickled my mind so badly that I started eating the script of 90 in about 10 days. The other 20 days were not fun. I guess I did this for about 8 months and said Oh hell no. This is an awful hamster wheel and I just have to get off. It took all I had to not go for my re-up appt. and quit getting the refills.
I smoked weed and took kratom and it worked. But I know I was lucky as other peeps don't have it so good.
I’m gonna stick to a cold turkey I think. I can’t taper. If I have codeine I’ll take it til it’s gone. I actually have a few gabapebtin tabs here given to me by a friend. I took one a few weeks ago and the next day I had the tremors so I haven’t took one since.
I’ve got clean also many times but always relapse. This last relapse is 4 months long. Been particularly heavy the last month or so. I can’t taper. If I have it, I’ll take it. Its always got to be cold turkey for me. I refuse to go on bupes for codeine addiction.
I completely understand, I was exactly the same with codeine.
Jabberwocky
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If you can not stand the withdrawal and think about relapsing when you are on your 3rd or 4th day, than I can see value in taking kratom. It surely won't hurt you if you try it before relapsing. I can see 4-6 grams of Red Thai on day 3-4 helping you. But it is your call always.
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Tramalala
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That's a lot of loperamide, I think you would be fine with half of that.
plumbus-nine
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If red vein kratom makes you jittery and anxious, you've either got bunk quality (happens A LOT unfortunately, specially old when bought in smart/little shops - look for where they also sell in bulk and cheap) or took too less (mitragynine is stimulatory at low dose, yet not jittery as coffee) and/or it's too less to mask your intensity of withdrawal.
I am currently withdrawing from morphine maintenance, had been as high as 600mg/d (1g codeine, if you metabolize all, appears to equal to 150mg) - tapered down with aid of pregabalin/Lyrica, to roughly 60mg in the last day when the kratom arrived. Next morning, in withdrawals, took the first tea ... and was sent directly to bed, glowing euphoria. This is not what you might aim for but I tell about the strength of good kratom. This felt like it certainly should take at least the edge off a 1g codeine habit.
Combining with clonidine seems to be of little help, as kratom itself contains a similar acting chemical.
Have been experimenting with different strains the last days and never felt bad.
So I don’t think it was the Kratom that made me feel jittery. I had my first COVID vaccine Saturday morning and spent most of the weekend in bed with an awful fever. I think what I’m feeling is side effects from the vaccine. It lasted all day, throughout my shift at work. I feel absolutely drained of energy and like I was trying to walk through concrete. A lot like some post viral fatigue I had after a bad bout of glandular fever. Anyway, withdrawals kicked in a little, achy legs, runny nose and constant yawning. I just got home from my shift and have decided to retry the kratom. I just dosed with 6 grams and got in bed. I’m just mixing with juice and drinking. I actually don’t mind the taste that much. Might vape a bit of weed once this has kicked in. I’ll see how strong it hits me first.
I’m fairly confident with the quality of kratom. I bought from a supplier in Amsterdam and got it shipped within 2 days here to the uk. The supplier was recommended by an online friend who uses it when he runs out of oxy. When I was searching on here before I created this thread I actually saw the same supplier recommended in another thread. Anyway I dosed with 6 grams about 15 mins ago and can feel it kicking in now. Feels like I’ve just dosed with a Codeine CWE so I think 6 gram is the dose that’s gonna work for me. I think I’m just gonna dose once a day. Before bed. In withdrawal I can put up with the symptoms during the day, I work in a very physically demanding job and it has always helped with withdrawals. I’m that busy that I kind of forget about the symptoms. The worst for me is always the insomnia so I figure if I dose just once a day before bed then I’ll get a decent sleep and can handle the rest during the day. Hopefully if I do this for a week I’ll get through the codeine withdrawal and have a minimal Kratom withdrawal after.
Wow, this is kicking in even stronger now. Nice euphoria. Very similar to codeine! Kratom is nice haha! I should have tried this years ago.
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Yeah i think that's whats happening here. Didn't want to initially say that kratom might not work for this size of a codeine habit but i certainly thought it (didn't want to contribute to a self fulfilling prophecy). I've had a few instances where i tried kratom for heavy duty opioid withdrawal (methadone and heroin) and the kratom only made the withdrawal worse. Edgy, anxiety and with a weird body load. More recently it worked well for lower level habits. If you have a heavy opioid addiction taking kratom is like taking a bunch of caffeine during opioid withdrawal. Not fun.
To the OP, good luck! It should be pretty short lived. Loperamide will help. Benzos too if you've got them.
Jabberwocky
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I am glad it works for you. I also suspected that once withdrawals really start higher doses should help.
Just to not fool yoursef - kratom isn't some miracle coffee like plant that you can not get addicted to. It is an opioid no matter how people slice it. It doesn't come from poppies but it hits the same receptors. And some others. It is an opioid agonist/antagonist, complex plant, that can give you very bad time (and withdrawals) if you become dependent/addicted to it.
I believe you know that but I am writing this for future readers also. I don't want to overstate risk of kratom but I don't want to tell just one side of the story either. Good thing is that kratom is self limiting, both with quantity one has to take and with it's effects that start to get less enjoyable at doses higher than 15G.
I hope you have ok day.
Thanks for the advice. If I just use it once or twice a day for maximum of a week at 6 grams per dose, will I likely have some kind of withdrawal at the end of that week?
Nurse Ratched
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If you only take it for a week I think you will be fine.
Jabberwocky
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@MrManners Every substance that activates opioid receptors will prolong the withdrawal. I would phrase it differently. You are now tapering off codeine with kratom. The amount of withdrawal that you will feel after 7 days will depend on the amount of misery you are prepared to experience without masking it with kratom. @negrogesic gave a great metaphor with debt restructuring. You are kicking the whole habit and I wouldn't fear so much "will I have to kick kratom?" question, but more "will I swap addictions?". Level of comfort will tell you where you're at. If you are feeling too comfortable than you are exchanging one dependence/addiction for another one. While I believe that kratom dependency is less problematic than codeine one, it can also get out off hand, especially if one starts to dabble with extracts. To be honest I don't know how codeine addiction cycle and withdrawal feels as I never used it in that kind of quantities, but it is essentially morphine that needs to be converted in The Church of The Liver, and I know how morphine dependency and withdrawal feels. I would swap 100mg morphine daily to 40 grams of kratom any time. If you are able to take no more than 18 grams of kratom first 5-7 days and then do a fast taper in next 5-7 days you will be ok. Remember, don't blame it on kratom later - you are kicking high amount of codeine. Hope youre doing well.
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plumbus-nine
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Yeah, good point about prolonging the withdrawal. Personally I didn't yet have the fun to withdraw from kratom, long thought it to be a herbal tramadol but was blown away by its potency, and switching to it was like methadone -> morphine, another layer of clarity added, felt like I didn't think to be possible for a long time.. what worries me most are reports of late onset liver toxicity (think it's about poor quality stuff, like heavy metals and herbizids etc.. unfortunately you can't just go testing for this stuff of shit).
Still, kratom / mitragynine is only a partial agonist at mu, similar to but with much less(?) affinity than buprenorphine. In animals it doesn't even cause dependency at all (but the metabolite/prodrug 7-HO mitragynine does, this one is what makes red vein different and resembles more a traditional opioid) ... I don't know if it's known why bupre precipitates withdrawal but kratom, being more stimulating, does not. Remember that kratom contains around 40 active compounds, some of them are even antagonists at mu!
I was into day 3 or 4 of morphine w/d, the worst about adrenergic activation, with kratom at ease yet got HUGE pupils and tachycardia which made somebody close to me to overly worry, fuck here a beta blocker'd be just the road down but no not without doctor etc..pp.. what I wanna say is, kratom definitely takes withdrawal away, I even felt euphoric but with higher or longer habits you might need an additional anti-adrenergic drug. My feeling was that kratom and pregabalin don't like each other but the former substitutes for the latter, minus said adrenergic thing.
Might be an approach to combine kratom and burst ketamine doses to lower tolerance. Completely at your own risks, I wouldn't expect too many of them but monitor your blood pressure.
Also read that sub-flood doses of iboga(ine) might be enough to substantially lower opioid tolerance too. This one feels more dangerous and less pleasurable though.
In past I achieved the same with supratherapeutic doses of memantine. This compound additionally substitutes for the lacking dopamine which, next to the adrenergic over-activation, makes withdrawal so fucking unpleasant. With wreckless near-dissociative doses tolerance to morphine went down to almost zero within a few days, and I didn't feel much....besides mania. This comes from too much dopamine and is hard to spot, K is certainly much safer..
Still, kratom / mitragynine is only a partial agonist at mu, similar to but with much less(?) affinity than buprenorphine. In animals it doesn't even cause dependency at all (but the metabolite/prodrug 7-HO mitragynine does, this one is what makes red vein different and resembles more a traditional opioid) ... I don't know if it's known why bupre precipitates withdrawal but kratom, being more stimulating, does not. Remember that kratom contains around 40 active compounds, some of them are even antagonists at mu!
I was into day 3 or 4 of morphine w/d, the worst about adrenergic activation, with kratom at ease yet got HUGE pupils and tachycardia which made somebody close to me to overly worry, fuck here a beta blocker'd be just the road down but no not without doctor etc..pp.. what I wanna say is, kratom definitely takes withdrawal away, I even felt euphoric but with higher or longer habits you might need an additional anti-adrenergic drug. My feeling was that kratom and pregabalin don't like each other but the former substitutes for the latter, minus said adrenergic thing.
Might be an approach to combine kratom and burst ketamine doses to lower tolerance. Completely at your own risks, I wouldn't expect too many of them but monitor your blood pressure.
Also read that sub-flood doses of iboga(ine) might be enough to substantially lower opioid tolerance too. This one feels more dangerous and less pleasurable though.
In past I achieved the same with supratherapeutic doses of memantine. This compound additionally substitutes for the lacking dopamine which, next to the adrenergic over-activation, makes withdrawal so fucking unpleasant. With wreckless near-dissociative doses tolerance to morphine went down to almost zero within a few days, and I didn't feel much....besides mania. This comes from too much dopamine and is hard to spot, K is certainly much safer..
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Jabberwocky
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How long are you off codeine? You are kicking the whole habit, not a week of kratom. It is true that kratom withdrawal has that special anxiousness/restlessness, but is short-lived. If you were kicking kratom only, I would say you have 1-2 days of the acute phase left. But I truly believe that it is this hard on you cause you are kicking a very big codeine habit. Having said that, you should be at a turning point in a day or two if you don't take any additional opioids. A week off codeine + 4 days off kratom and you should start to see light on the end of the tunnel more clearly. There is no guarantee but that's what I would expect. You are doing a great job man!