Opioids Kratom - dose higher or not?

[dopamimetic]

Thanks, that is indeed what I seem to notice too. I need more than the recommended doses and they were still within the stimulating range so made me think about OD but now it's really opioid-like. Unfortunately a partial agonist and thus not as cuddly as morphine by far but I'd say it's better than what I remember of bupe. Like it, probably the best you can get legally w/o prescription.

@Ballz_Trippington Do you get any tachycardia or speediness from the combo with coffee? I skipped coffee this morning because I am pretty sensitive to it but usually like opioid+low dose stim.

Might be placebo but think my pupils are actually a tad smaller than they were in the morning or usually when sober.

Do we have a binding assay of 7-hydroxymitragynine? The wikipedia article is a stub.
Apparently mitragynine binds also to D2, adeonsine and some serotonin receptors. Need to read the full text of this later.

 

[dopamimetic]

I seem to metabolize this stuff faster than the average. Internet says that it lasts longer than most opioids, for more than 12h but I got withdrawal signs after just maybe 6-7h, runny nose, nervousness, increased tension which is gone again after redosing some 2-3g.

How long does kratom last for you? Tried to buy maeng da but they only had white vein so I got thai red vein. Appears to do it too. Would love to catch a nod but I'm afraid of getting just tachycardia and anxiety so I'll stick with the relief it brings me.

Also anybody getting headache from it?

 

[negrogesic]

It is actually quite short acting. If ive been using it continuously I can feel withdrawal in as little as 4.5 hours. It doesn't last long enough to make it through the night so you inevitably can't make it through the night entirely. Generally i found it necessary to take more at 5 or 6am.

Headaches are common. I personally can't take single doses in excess or 7-8g before severe nausea hits. The nausea is different than other opioids, and in some ways worse. Part of it is the sheer amount of powder sitting in your stomach, but even with extracts ill get severe nausea at high doses (ie., when taken in doses equivalent to 10g of leaf and above).

Every once in a while there is a euphoric feeling about 45 minutes to 1.5 hours after dosing but it often fades into a sort of irritability (though this is true with many short acting opioids).

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

Thanks, that is indeed what I seem to notice too. I need more than the recommended doses and they were still within the stimulating range so made me think about OD but now it's really opioid-like. Unfortunately a partial agonist and thus not as cuddly as morphine by far but I'd say it's better than what I remember of bupe. Like it, probably the best you can get legally w/o prescription.

@Ballz_Trippington Do you get any tachycardia or speediness from the combo with coffee? I skipped coffee this morning because I am pretty sensitive to it but usually like opioid+low dose stim.

Might be placebo but think my pupils are actually a tad smaller than they were in the morning or usually when sober.

Do we have a binding assay of 7-hydroxymitragynine? The wikipedia article is a stub.
Apparently mitragynine binds also to D2, adeonsine and some serotonin receptors. Need to read the full text of this later.

I actually never got much effect from the red strains except some slight relaxation...the white maeng da is totally different...definitely more "speedy" at around 10g .
I most certainly experienced tachycardia and some jitteriness at that dose but the euphoria is quite pronounced and I still feel it 12 hours after dosing usually needing etizolam to sleep due to the residual stimulation.
The most I ever ate was 17 -000 size capsules (each 000 holds about 800mg of kratom powder) that dose made me barf so I keep down to 7-10g and I'm pretty floored for about 8 hours with about 4 or 5 hours of residual effects.
I get mine directly from Indonesia, supposedly extremely fresh though I only did one huge order years ago of like 6 kilos. It was dirt cheap and very potent. I keep it vacuum sealed in a cold storage facility for long term storage.
Different strains have very different effects but kratom is lovely stuff!!!

 

[Snafu in the Void]

So now I've read reports on erowid where some are using way above 10g but of course the material out there is heavily varying in potency. Overdose symptoms seem to be intense tachycardia (ouch), equally intense nausea and vomiting but you should also be able to get robust sedation from it, some describe overdoses as being speedy but at the

My experience with overdose (something like 20g if I remember) was extremely intense nausea which was only controlled by laying down flat (if I got up I puked), strong dysphoria, disorientating double vision and strong tremors (leading to stumbling/falling). I never noticed tachycardia but it may have been present. Both speedy and sedating, no sleep to be had.

Even with high tolerance doses of 10g+ give me nausea and tremors (especially on an empty stomach). I just don't go there anymore.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

It is actually quite short acting. If ive been using it continuously I can feel withdrawal in as little as 4.5 hours. It doesn't last long enough to make it through the night so you inevitably can't make it through the night entirely. Generally i found it necessary to take more at 5 or 6am.

I guess everyone is different. Even at my peak of usage which was probably about 18g/day (2-3 doses) I wouldn't notice withdrawal until about 20 hours. The withdrawals can be quite intense, though obviously not nearly as bad as true opioids. Mostly fatigue, runny nose, insomnia and body aches/restless legs and arms (the worst part for me). Once I cut down to 7-8g/day (one dose) I experience almost no withdrawal at all. I think its dose/frequency dependant.

 

[sewerslide.666mg]

I guess everyone is different. Even at my peak of usage which was probably about 18g/day (2-3 doses) I wouldn't notice withdrawal until about 20 hours. The withdrawals can be quite intense, though obviously not nearly as bad as true opioids. Mostly fatigue, runny nose, insomnia and body aches/restless legs and arms (the worst part for me). Once I cut down to 7-8g/day (one dose) I experience almost no withdrawal at all. I think its dose/frequency dependant.

true I've had similar experience, after 10g it could be symptoms, I've been buying kratom from a store in town is been a wile scence I've bought online and the manga I think was so green lime lime green, I'm not going to that store unless it's an emergency

 

[dopamimetic]

My experience with overdose (something like 20g if I remember) was extremely intense nausea which was only controlled by laying down flat (if I got up I puked), strong dysphoria, disorientating double vision and strong tremors (leading to stumbling/falling). I never noticed tachycardia but it may have been present. Both speedy and sedating, no sleep to be had.

Interesting that it turns into dysphoria, I get the same from morphine in subjective overdose just without the sympathomimetic symptoms like tremor. Instead of nodding nicely sometimes the experience would become strongly dysphoric and cold with a feeling of slow breath that made me panic but it wasn't dangerous yet. Strangely never had any nausea even in OD which might have saved my life as sometimes I accidentally passed out and might be dead now if I'd puked.

But the insomnia from kratom is intense. Slept for like 5h now when usually I need at least 7-8h but feel mostly fine, a little tired but not much besides boredom because I don't have anything real to do and the usual craving for dissociatives.
Also woke up with runny nose, no else symptoms of withdrawal - realize that I had cold sweats for the whole time now since I quit morphine, and more so ran out of the memantine which I replaced it with (fuck Rx only) and they're gone now. But nose's runny. So well, next 5g of red vein.

Hoped this stuff would protect me on the ride 'home' I will have to do soon, it's like 10-12h by train and in both countries kratom is illegal. Sigh.

Is there anything to do against the stimulation (that doesn't require a prescription like everything in Europe does)? Antihistamines maybe but don't like them. Apparently kratom is an alpha-2 agonist which is supposed to lower norepinephrine, this can explain tachycardia, even insomnia if activated too much and the body compensating for that (see the side effects of e.g. clonidine) but not real stimulation.
Other possibility are adenosine receptors, the anti-target of caffeine and this might explain why somebody posted here to like the combo of kratom+caffeine.

But probably it's other alkaloids present in there which aren't as well researched as the mitragynins. Think about the possibility of extracting them as the smart shop extracts mostly don't work for me and I suspect they are poorly made, or out of the stuff they couldn't sell as pure.

 

[sewerslide.666mg]

Interesting that it turns into dysphoria, I get the same from morphine in subjective overdose just without the sympathomimetic symptoms like tremor. Instead of nodding nicely sometimes the experience would become strongly dysphoric and cold with a feeling of slow breath that made me panic but it wasn't dangerous yet. Strangely never had any nausea even in OD which might have saved my life as sometimes I accidentally passed out and might be dead now if I'd puked.

But the insomnia from kratom is intense. Slept for like 5h now when usually I need at least 7-8h but feel mostly fine, a little tired but not much besides boredom because I don't have anything real to do and the usual craving for dissociatives.
Also woke up with runny nose, no else symptoms of withdrawal - realize that I had cold sweats for the whole time now since I quit morphine, and more so ran out of the memantine which I replaced it with (fuck Rx only) and they're gone now. But nose's runny. So well, next 5g of red vein.

Hoped this stuff would protect me on the ride 'home' I will have to do soon, it's like 10-12h by train and in both countries kratom is illegal. Sigh.

Is there anything to do against the stimulation (that doesn't require a prescription like everything in Europe does)? Antihistamines maybe but don't like them. Apparently kratom is an alpha-2 agonist which is supposed to lower norepinephrine, this can explain tachycardia, even insomnia if activated too much and the body compensating for that (see the side effects of e.g. clonidine) but not real stimulation.
Other possibility are adenosine receptors, the anti-target of caffeine and this might explain why somebody posted here to like the combo of kratom+caffeine.

But probably it's other alkaloids present in there which aren't as well researched as the mitragynins. Think about the possibility of extracting them as the smart shop extracts mostly don't work for me and I suspect they are poorly made, or out of the stuff they couldn't sell as pure.

kratom puke sux I always feel fucked up right b4 and after i puck but that shit has rewined my day in the past or if I take on a full stomic

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Interesting that it turns into dysphoria, I get the same from morphine in subjective overdose just without the sympathomimetic symptoms like tremor. Instead of nodding nicely sometimes the experience would become strongly dysphoric and cold with a feeling of slow breath that made me panic but it wasn't dangerous yet. Strangely never had any nausea even in OD which might have saved my life as sometimes I accidentally passed out and might be dead now if I'd puked.

It's a strong dysphoria during kratom OD mainly due to the intense side effects which are very unpleasant. I've also experienced insomnia and some slight dysphoria from other opioids like oxymorphone/fentanyl. I can't really explain it. Only happens sometimes (same batch too). Not sure.

But probably it's other alkaloids present in there which aren't as well researched as the mitragynins. Think about the possibility of extracting them as the smart shop extracts mostly don't work for me and I suspect they are poorly made, or out of the stuff they couldn't sell as pure.

I would be willing to bet its the other alkaloids which are seriously understudied.

 

[dopamimetic]

Runny nose gone, headache too. But I crave for more ... do you know of other herbs which combine nicely? The kanna is interesting but maybe adds more headache after the short initial rush is gone and what I want is something relaxing.

Blue lotus maybe, read it should be an anxiolytic/sedative (but noo, contains aporphine - in opposition to apomorphine a dopamine antagonist)
Or wild lettuce (lactuca virosa - gotcha: an adenosine agonist. Doubt that it's potent enough but worth a try)?

Mulungu or kava would be nice but chances to find them in RL shops are next to none. Def. need to fix my P.O. box.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Mulungu or kava would be nice

I think you're the one who suggested mulungu to me. Right?

I looked it up. Very few but conflicting reports. I concluded the price point was not worth the high. Maybe I'm wrong? Most positive/strong effect reports were talking about taking dozens of grams, and it's more expensive than kratom. Some talk about taking extracts sublingually but it's also caustic to the mouth. What's your experience?

I'm looking for something to rotate with phenibut to avoid tolerance/addiction and stay off alcohol. I don't like kava very much.

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

For me Kratom only lasts 4-6 hours but generally I re-dose after 3 hours. I start to notice withdrawal symptoms after about 6-8 hours. Generally I only get them after I've slept. Withdrawal is very mild compared to opioids but still enough to bother me.

To your original questions: When I first started kratom I could notice 3-4 grams but generally I take 6-10 grams per dose. I use powdered leaf and just toss and wash. Kratom is very mild compared to opioids and I've only managed to get a light nod on it once or twice. To obtain those nods I had to take benzos with it. I use it more for the pain killing effects and the general mood lift. Red strains tend to be more sedating for me. Green strains are okay and remind me more of oxycodone in that they give me an energy boost. White strains have a big energy boost and are like mega dosing caffeine. My sweet spot is mixing a red with a green during the day. Reds have a tendency of causing me to sit around in bed for hours doing nothing.

You're never going to obtain a morphine like high with Kratom and I find it useless to chase it for that purpose. I don't get any of the bad side effects with Kratom so I've pushed all the way up to 15-20 gram doses in the past. I find them mostly a waste and don't get anything more out of it when I push beyond 10 grams. For me kratom is best when I keep doses in the 6-8 gram range. I generally take a dose like that when I wake up, lay around for an hour waiting on it to kick in, then dosing every 3-4 hours afterwards throughout the day. I try to avoid taking it 3 hours before bed because I don't sleep well on it.

My use of it has led me back into wanting real opioids. I've already slipped up once and taken morphine. I'm trying to taper back off kratom now because I'm not getting much from it other than withdrawal relief from my kratom habit. It has also dried out my skin and made my hair brittle. When you're taking the stuff make sure you're drinking a lot of water or you'll get these problems. In a month or so I'm probably going to do the Iboga flood and hopefully leave opioids behind for good.

 

[dopamimetic]

I think you're the one who suggested mulungu to me. Right?

I looked it up. Very few but conflicting reports. I concluded the price point was not worth the high.
What's your experience?

Might be, I am interested in it but don't have personal experiences yet. Read a few promising ones, that it was the strongest plant sedative currently available legally and that it's mechanism is gabaergic but now a quick google found indeed conflicting things, about a nicotinic mechanism etc. But this here sounds good:

Erysothrine, an alkaloid extracted from flowers of Erythrina mulungu Mart. ex Benth: Evaluating its anticonvulsant and anxiolytic potential

In this study, we isolated the alkaloid erysothrine from the hydroalcoholic extract of flowers from E. mulungu and screened for its anticonvulsant and…

www.sciencedirect.com

In this study, we isolated the alkaloid erysothrine from the hydroalcoholic extract of flowers from E. mulungu and screened for its anticonvulsant and anxiolytic actions based on neuroethological and neurochemical experiments. Our results showed that the administration of erysothrine inhibited seizures evoked by bicuculline, PTZ, NMDA and most remarkably, kainic acid. Also, erysothrine induced an increase in the number of entries but not in the time spent in the open arms of the EPM. However, we did not notice any alterations in the light–dark choice or in the open-field tests. In preliminary neurochemistry tests, we also showed that erysothrine (0.001–10 μg/mL) did not alter the GABA or glutamate synaptossomal uptake and binding. Altogether, our results describe an alkaloid with anticonvulsant activity and mild anxiolytic activity that might be considered well tolerated as it does not alter the general behavior of the animals in the used doses.

Note that they say "did not alter GABA uptake and binding", this might not include allosteric modulation like the benzos do and thus lead to misunderstandings, or am I wrong?

Reds are a tendency of causing me to sit around in bed for hours doing nothing.

@HeadphonesandLSD Oh this sounds like what I am looking for! My tolerance seems too high though so I get a net plus of stimulation even with red.

With the (currently non- for me)availability of NMDA antagonists like memantine opioids lost much of the fears associated with them. I could use morphine one or some days, switch to memantine for some days and not experience any real negatives. Don't know how sustainable it is though.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

Interesting that it turns into dysphoria, I get the same from morphine in subjective overdose just without the sympathomimetic symptoms like tremor. Instead of nodding nicely sometimes the experience would become strongly dysphoric and cold with a feeling of slow breath that made me panic but it wasn't dangerous yet. Strangely never had any nausea even in OD which might have saved my life as sometimes I accidentally passed out and might be dead now if I'd puked.

But the insomnia from kratom is intense. Slept for like 5h now when usually I need at least 7-8h but feel mostly fine, a little tired but not much besides boredom because I don't have anything real to do and the usual craving for dissociatives.
Also woke up with runny nose, no else symptoms of withdrawal - realize that I had cold sweats for the whole time now since I quit morphine, and more so ran out of the memantine which I replaced it with (fuck Rx only) and they're gone now. But nose's runny. So well, next 5g of red vein.

Hoped this stuff would protect me on the ride 'home' I will have to do soon, it's like 10-12h by train and in both countries kratom is illegal. Sigh.

Is there anything to do against the stimulation (that doesn't require a prescription like everything in Europe does)? Antihistamines maybe but don't like them. Apparently kratom is an alpha-2 agonist which is supposed to lower norepinephrine, this can explain tachycardia, even insomnia if activated too much and the body compensating for that (see the side effects of e.g. clonidine) but not real stimulation.
Other possibility are adenosine receptors, the anti-target of caffeine and this might explain why somebody posted here to like the combo of kratom+caffeine.

But probably it's other alkaloids present in there which aren't as well researched as the mitragynins. Think about the possibility of extracting them as the smart shop extracts mostly don't work for me and I suspect they are poorly made, or out of the stuff they couldn't sell as pure.

Interestingly, I've tried taking my kratom capsules (I can only ingest kratom in large gel caps because i absolutely cannot stand the taste) with red bull with large amounts of coca cola and did NOT notice the same synergy that I get with kratom and a large strong coffee...it might just be in my head but after several trials with different caffeinated beverages, coffee seems to be by far the best experience consistently.
I actually have no desire to ever take kratom again unless I have an extra large coffee or espresso or something like that to take with the capsules.
Also, phenibut also seems VERY synergistic with Kratom...all my experiences are with white and green vien strains...I dont care for the red vien strains but that's me.
I should mention I'm NOT a regular opioid user at all so I may be getting subjectively stronger effects than regular opioid users.

 

[dopamimetic]

White vein + caffeine sounds like a ticket for jittery anxiety but maybe it's indeed the opposite and caffeine displaces kratom at the adenosine receptors - or it's another mechanism.

Phenibut, interesting. It's been long time since I took it, for me phenibut is definitely of more use than baclofen (that one gave me nothing but physical discomfort) and as it's a gabapentinoid, entirely reasonable.

Maybe I'll get some white or green vein today to compare. How would you describe their differencies? First hand experiences are worth more than any of the stuff shops tell me. The red vein from yesterday doesn't give me headaches, nice.

My last opioid was now also around one month ago so I shouldn't have that much tolerance but it was always pretty high by nature.

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

Maybe I'll get some white or green vein today to compare. How would you describe their differencies? First hand experiences are worth more than any of the stuff shops tell me. The red vein from yesterday doesn't give me headaches, nice.

White always felt very stimulating to me with no need to add coffee or anything like that. It's a clean stimulation and isn't like taking speed or anything. It just kills pain and helps you get work done. Green is similar but not as overwhelming. Green I compare to a mild speed ball. Red is by far the most sedating but you have to understand there are multiple strains and sources for each color. So one red might feel very different than another. The reds don't taste as strong as the green or whites IME so easier to toss and wash.

I've gotten bags from the same source for a long time now. They carry multiple brands and I've settled on one lately that I feel is the best value. Every now and again I'll get a bag from them that has no taste and minimal effects. I think certain batches just aren't as good as usual or were exposed to air and lost potency. So every new batch I get I start low and work up. I've had batches with almost no taste that barely got rid of withdrawal. I've had batches that were very strong. Both of those batches were the same strain and same brand.

I've also had batches from other brands that I suspected were cut with inert substances. I've gotten batches I suspect were cut with some type of opioid RC. The ones I think were cut with an RC were far stronger than others I've tried and had worse withdrawals that kratom couldn't break through for days. Just part of the fun when you're dealing with something that isn't approved from human use.

Now that I know what strains I like I buy 4 ounces at a time but when I first got into kratom I was buying ounce bags. I tried pretty much every strain from that company before I moved on to another brand. It was a cheap way to try all the various strains without spending a lot of money up front. Some online vendors do sampler packs which is probably a better way to go about this. The shop I buy from knows their products and listens to feedback. I trust those guys but this is an exception to the rule. I buy from them because the prices are the same as online vendors and he only carries good stuff. The other places I see selling locally do so as a massive mark-up and their products aren't as good. I've tried some gas station kratom that was good but not worth the cost. Works in a pinch to starve off w/d but I wouldn't buy it for daily use. A lot of folks say never to buy head shop kratom but I haven't had a bad experience with my local shop.

 

[HeadphonesandLSD]

Oh for greens/stimulation my favorite strain for months was one called "Green Vietnam". The brand I use now doesn't carry it but Green Vein Maeng Da and Green Vein Malay are very close. I don't mess with the white strains much but when I've tried them all were more stimulating that these greens. The greens are more stimulation than I care for so I don't try out whites much anymore.

I really prefer the red veins because they're the most relaxing but I've never had one come close to the likes of Hydrocodone, Oxycodone, Morphine, or any of the classic opioids/opiates. In my early days of using I did manage to get what they call the wobbles one time from a Red Vein mixed with 2mg of Ativan. I built up a tolerance to kratom quickly and haven't been able to get close to the wobbles or nod since. Kratom for me feels closer to tramadol than any other opioid and I feel like a lot of the withdrawal effects from it have to do with the various receptors it hits outside of the opioid receptors. There is some kind of antidepressant effect going on with it.

I have tried extracts in the past and I don't feel like they're worth the money. Locally an extract would cost me 3x or more per dose than toss and wash with plain leaf. There are people that come into the shop and buy those everyday though. They do work and they work great but I think they cost too much. There is a guy locally that was a big opioid addict who buys the extract. With liquid extract he takes 3 vials at the same time. With the capsules/tablets he eats the entire bottle as a dose (I think it's 30 pills in them). He claims he nods off of it but I think those doses are extreme and wouldn't attempt them myself. Once you get beyond plain leaf you might as well spend money on the real thing imo.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

I've only had kratom from one supplier in Indonesia and I got a kilo of 6 different kinds ...I found the red to be the least noticeable but just made me a but relaxed but nothing like a benzodiazepine which is what I was expecting.
The green strains are more energetic and functional (most like a functional stimulant).
And the white vein...is like the green vien but much much much more recreational. I have a feeling of intense long lasting euphoria and generally just feeling totally fucked up but innately most pleasant way.
The only real side effect I've noticed from it is definite constipation but thsts probably becsuse it's a mild opioid.
I highly recommend a strong dose of the white but it can be "jittery" and cause some tremors at high doses but the euphoria is awesome in my experience.

 

[dopamimetic]

Whoa this was nice! Just had a pretty unexpected 2h semi-nod from ~3g red +4g gold vein (+6mg loperamide, I doubt that this contributed but it was more intense than expected and opioid tolerance is to a good part mediated by peripheral receptors as blocking them slows tolerance down significantly. Was all I had left and read that you can potentiate morphine with otherwise inactive amounts). Very clear, no nausea, jitteryness or headache! But now some sweating, really wish the day-long duration would be true for me.

Do you have experiences with mixing strains? Sounds like green+red might be worth a try to get more euphoria.

But what saddens me is that I remember that in another life, just lying in bed comfortably in the evening would always feel like this.