Kratom Kratom as a stimulant?

[Snafu in the Void]

kratom is an interesting stimulant in which it's very potent yet not overly so

eating kratom after 2 hours of sleep actually wakes me up fully (for about 90 minutes..), whereas drinking coffee in such situation would not actually wake me up, just make me feel jumpy but still tired

kratom is a better, but shorter acting stimulant than caffeine in my experience

 

[simstim]

I've always found maeng da stimulating. I prefer the more opiate like effects of Borneo red. I just got some fentadope today though. I forgot i have a drug test at the PO Wednesday though. Hopefully this fentanyl doesn't show up in the dip test!

 

[Nurse Ratched]

kratom is an interesting stimulant in which it's very potent yet not overly so

eating kratom after 2 hours of sleep actually wakes me up fully (for about 90 minutes..), whereas drinking coffee in such situation would not actually wake me up, just make me feel jumpy but still tired

kratom is a better, but shorter acting stimulant than caffeine in my experience

Same

 

[Pickledlemons]

I have read the article, watched the video and understand what you are saying. But, as that may be the case with majority of vendors (I don't know the USA market) I simply don't think that this is true with the vendor I am buying from.

I'm going to quote my previous post to help you understand that it doesn't matter if one or two vendors MIGHT have names that mean something.

Since Kratom is named at most on the type of drying method used, and since that does not correlate with the type of alkaloids found in the product... that would make naming kratom strains as a way to determine effects profile, absolutely unreliable. And that's why I said what I did. Not because I think all kratom is the same and not because I think it only grows in one place.

... Because not everyone uses the same vendor. So I think its inappropriate to say this 'this strain is stimulating' and 'that strain is depressing,' in a setting like bluelight.

Look man I was right there with you, I used to take greens in the morning and reds at night and thought it made a difference. Then I tried switching it around and realized there was no correlation and it was just preconceived notions, probably from what I read on the internet. Its human nature to get anxious when our view of the world gets challenged. Happens to me to.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I have no problem of being wrong. It would take a bit off hustle if youre right as I wouldn't think what strain to take, I would just mix them all and take them. I said that maybe I am under influence of placebo and marketing. It is a true possibility. It's just that it doesn't compute with experience I and my wife have (had). I have no investment here, just giving an opinion and trying to find out what is what.

 

[Pickledlemons]

for what its worth, some of my best kratom highs have been from mixing different bags together.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Yeah I like to mix Green with Red Thai and can always tell when Thai most intense effects stopped (aftrr ~2h) and then I am cruising on Malay for another 3-4 hours. I don't want to get in the argument and maybe I am wrong and have placebo all this years but that is how it always felt to me.

 

[Xorkoth]

Sure, there are good and bad batches of kratom, as Ive already said, that's not really the problem at hand though.

Since Kratom is named at most on the type of drying method used, and since that does not correlate with the type of alkaloids found in the product... that would make naming kratom strains as a way to determine effects profile, absolutely unreliable. And that's why I said what I did. Not because I think all kratom is the same and not because I think it only grows in one place.

I get what you're saying after following your link. Didn't realize the actual color appearance was from the drying method. That explains why I've gotten "red bali" that was quite green, and that was quite red. For what it's worth, I tend to experience consistent effects that vary based on advertised strain/color, in a consistent manner, from a vendor between batches, but the same purported strain/color from another vendor can be very different. That experience had me already agreeing that the strain stuff is largely marketing for many vendors, most probably unknowingly even as they're just buying bulk and repackaging. But this info about the color being more about drying method adds a new dimension to the whole thing.

I do tend to notice that reds are more sedating, whites are the most stimulating, and greens are in the middle, across various vendors. Placebo is powerful and that is what I expect to feel, on the other hand, it's still kinda hard to believe that it's entirely placebo. But could be I suppose.

 

[somnilicious]

The leaves I've collected from my friends kratom trees are all green unless the leaf had died, fallen off and been left to turn red brown in the sun.

Typically all leaves that are dried in cool dark places have a dark green color when dried and powdered but leaves from the same tree that are left to dry out in the sun turn red.

I have noticed that fresher leaves(green) tend to be more stimulating. It is my theory that the process of drying the leaves out in the sun to turn them red causes the stimulating alkaloids in the tree to breakdown quicker leaving just the opiate like alkaloids behind. It's the reason why people say reds are less stimulating.

Also makes a lot of sense when users speak anecdotaly about Green(white) colored kratoms taking less grams to feel the effects because they are getting those stimulating alkaloids. People who dose reds can and do usually dose more grams per dosage without that uncomfortable stimulation and are able to enjoy the opiate like effects

 

[Antiprosynthesis]

I used to use quite a lot of Kratom, and I too found to be White more stimulating, red more sedating and green in between...

I mostly didn't feel a lot from extracts, except the gold extract which was very sedating... This actually was my favorite but was most of the Times sold out...

My other favorites were red Borneo for sedation and White maeng da for stimulation...

 

[PatDC4l]

In lower dosages kratom is considered somewhat stimulating?

Would u consider low dose kratom vs high dose kratom to be similar to any opiate/opiod in that the smaller dose usually has that stimulant feeling or is working completely differently on the brain?

Any help graetly appreciated

Never done any opiates other than kratom and I always felt a little rush of energy when i take it even when I do a high dose

 

[jasperkent]

Personally I get stimulating effects from both red and green strains, but I feel very little, if anything, from white.

YMMV

 

[Snafu in the Void]

for what its worth, some of my best kratom highs have been from mixing different bags together.

Yep!

This stuff claims to be 11 strains mixed, and it's very strong. Feels 30% stronger than any one strain alone, but tolerance to it's unique effects seems to develop quickly in 2-3 days then it just feels like a normal strain.

I've always enjoyed blends and often take multiple strains if I have them, but this does seem to spike tolerance and negates the benefits of switching strains due to Stagnant Strain Syndrome.

 

[Antiprosynthesis]

Yes, definitely, especially Green Malay or likely white strains.

Even higher doses are still stimulant in effect, just with an increasing sedative overlay.

And even heavy Kratoms like Thai Maeng da is it? And Red Borneo, have a stimulant effect still.

Compared to kava and benzos, even cannabis, Kratom is much more of a stimulant.

- Conversely I'm attempting to put perspective on the nature and dose of meth use where its effects become chronically neuro-toxic.

Molecular, Behavioral, and Physiological Consequences of Methamphetamine Neurotoxicity: Implications for Treatment

Understanding the relationship between the molecular mechanisms underlying neurotoxicity of high-dose methamphetamine (METH) and related clinical manifestations is imperative for providing more effective treatments for human METH users. This article provides an overview of clinical...

jpet.aspetjournals.org

Working my way through this paper (unlocked):

Sci-Hub | Molecular, Behavioral and Physiological Consequences Methamphetamine Neurotoxicity: Implications for Treatment | 10.1124/jpet.116.238501

"Neurotoxicity can be more broadly defined as a permanent or reversible adverse effect of a substance on neuronal structure or function (definition used by Environment Protection Agency for regulatory purposes), causing loss of neuronal components, loss of entire neuron, histological signs of neuronal damage, and/or behavioral abnormalities. Consequently, throughout this review, we include under this term neuronal degeneration/damage and also alterations in neuronal structure, morphology and function"

Page 12 on it's getting relevant.

"Sensitization to METH psychosis could be functionally related to neurotoxicity because psychiatric symptoms correlated inversely with DAT density in the striatum and PFC (Sekine et al., 2003)"

Page 25

"only a few compounds were able to attenuate METH neurotoxicity when administered after METH binge, namely DA uptake inhibitors, nicotinic receptor ligand lobeline (Eyerman and Yamamoto, 2005), and trophic factors (e.g. GDNF) (Cass et al., 2000); they are potential candidates for treatment of cognitive impairments in METHThis article has not been copyedited and formatted. The final version may differ from this version. JPET Fast Forward. Published on June 19, 2017 as DOI: 10.1124/jpet.116.238501 at ASPET Journals on June 21, 2017 jpet.aspetjournals.org Downloaded from JPET #238501 31 dependent patients"

Page 30.

"there is evidence that electroconvulsive shock restores object-related memory in mice in a chronic METH paradigm (Chao et al., 2012). A separate group has shown that cognitive training may remediate some of the executive impairments in human METH users"

**
- Mostly examines toxicity in short-term and high-dose subjects/animal-models.

Mechanism of toxicity = induction of neural hyper-excitation, associated oxidative stress, etc.

Kind of interesting but doesn't allude to anything in relation to long term use being neuro-protective or neuro-toxic.

My Favorite was red Borneo which I used in very large doses and IT didn't really give me Any stimulation, i even could sleep on IT without Any benzo of which at the time i needed many to sleep...

 

[AutoTripper]

My Favorite was red Borneo which I used in very large doses and IT didn't really give me Any stimulation, i even could sleep on IT without Any benzo of which at the time i needed many to sleep...

Yes Red Borneo is like your 85% Indica, lower mental/psychological arousal, less buzzy stimulation stronger sedation sooner and lasting.

It is some people's cup of tea.

I preferred Green Malay but I like some stimulation.

There is a marked difference between the two.

There is Kava too.

I like Kratom but literally deathly allergic it would kill me in under one month.

So I overuse kava like few people alive I reckon I have extreme needs and so many limits, restrictions it's untrue.