Kratom Kratom as a stimulant?

[Bare_head]

In lower dosages kratom is considered somewhat stimulating?

Would u consider low dose kratom vs high dose kratom to be similar to any opiate/opiod in that the smaller dose usually has that stimulant feeling or is working completely differently on the brain?

Any help graetly appreciated

 

[Jabberwocky]

For me Red Thai(Maeng Da) from vendor I order can make me feel similar to low dose of oxycodone. For that to happen I have to have very low tolerance, but I had those kind of experiences.

 

[AutoTripper]

Yes, definitely, especially Green Malay or likely white strains.

Even higher doses are still stimulant in effect, just with an increasing sedative overlay.

And even heavy Kratoms like Thai Maeng da is it? And Red Borneo, have a stimulant effect still.

Compared to kava and benzos, even cannabis, Kratom is much more of a stimulant.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Green Malay for me is perfectly balanced kratom strain.

 

[AutoTripper]

Green Malay for me is perfectly balanced kratom strain.

It was my favourite when I used Kratom 4 weeks daily 2019. Green Malay in particular appeared to be notoriously popular, for it’s energetic, stimulative but not jittery stimulant nature as the White Kratoms were reported as by some.

I can’t take Kratom though due to a severe allergy. I had nasty withdrawals from a forced accute stop.

Kratom cut through my anxiety like it was soft butter, every time. I got the most restful sleep. But my digestive system was trashed.

I moved no to kava since, which I’m just preparing now after a day off.

Kava isn’t physically addictive like Kratom, plus I found Kratom to mess with my brain chemistry balance a lot.

Kava doesn’t do this. If anything, I believe it actually has a modulating, balancing effect.

I’ll admit, effects wise, I like Kratom more. I’m chronically fatigued and sleep deprived, I need energy not mellowing out, and Kratom mellowed the mood but provided a lasting boost of physical and conscious energy.

But beggars can’t be choosers, and kava has a tiny carbon footprint (in our bodies I mean) than Kratom which for all it’s marvel, does have a dirty down side.

 

[Pickledlemons]

kratom is definitely stimulating on lower doses, I used to believe the whole this strain has that effect and that strain has that effect thing but it really is marketting. Getting a stimulant effect is really about keeping doses low, as you said. As for its affect on the brain, I actually started a thread asking the same question many years ago, I remember one user suggested that it works by the same mechanism of action as yohimbe. I'll see if I can find the thread.

 

[Pickledlemons]

here it is. Remember that we really don't know enough about kratom for a definitive answer.

mechanism of action for kratom

Does anybody have any information about what causes the stimulant properties of kratom? I have heard mitragynine/7-hydroxy-mitragynine have an effect on delta opioid receptors at lower doses. But targets mu-opiate receptors at higher doses. Can anybody confirm or deny this? If that was the case...

www.bluelight.org

 

[Bare_head]

Thanks alot for the link. Seiko's analysis makes alot of sense

 

[Nurse Ratched]

Yes, definitely, especially Green Malay or likely white strains.

Even higher doses are still stimulant in effect, just with an increasing sedative overlay.

And even heavy Kratoms like Thai Maeng da is it? And Red Borneo, have a stimulant effect still.

Compared to kava and benzos, even cannabis, Kratom is much more of a stimulant.

This.

 

[Xorkoth]

kratom is definitely stimulating on lower doses, I used to believe the whole this strain has that effect and that strain has that effect thing but it really is marketting. Getting a stimulant effect is really about keeping doses low, as you said. As for its affect on the brain, I actually started a thread asking the same question many years ago, I remember one user suggested that it works by the same mechanism of action as yohimbe. I'll see if I can find the thread.

I wouldn't throw out the idea of different strains having different effects. Kratom has around 40 alkaloids, and we know that at least 2 of them are highly active on their own, mitragynine and 7-HO-mitragynine, and those two are substantially different in their binding profiles. We know that different strains of kratom (particularly where they are from) have differing ratios of alkaloid content. And we do not know much about most of the other alkaloids, but there is certainly an entourage effect going on.

That said, I do think that it is used as a marketing gimmick, too.

 

[Pickledlemons]

I read a very convincing article that researched this and found out that kratom names arent even given to the product until after its been processed dried and packed, and shipped across the world. Its just marketting, kratom does have varying degrees of alkaloids, and some batches are better than others, but that doesn't mean that your red bali comes from bali or is from a different kind of tree than the green bali or maeng da, or w/e. Do you want me to see if I can find it for you?

 

[deficiT]

I've found kratom to be both stimulating and analgesic in all doses. I usually stuck to 4 gram doses at a time. Some strains are more stimulating, while some are more sedating, and then some are more potent by weight. Really depends on the strain and where it was grown.

 

[Pickledlemons]

I wouldn't throw out the idea of different strains having different effects. Kratom has around 40 alkaloids, and we know that at least 2 of them are highly active on their own, mitragynine and 7-HO-mitragynine, and those two are substantially different in their binding profiles. We know that different strains of kratom (particularly where they are from) have differing ratios of alkaloid content. And we do not know much about most of the other alkaloids, but there is certainly an entourage effect going on.

That said, I do think that it is used as a marketing gimmick, too.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

here it is. Remember that we really don't know enough about kratom for a definitive answer.

mechanism of action for kratom

Does anybody have any information about what causes the stimulant properties of kratom? I have heard mitragynine/7-hydroxy-mitragynine have an effect on delta opioid receptors at lower doses. But targets mu-opiate receptors at higher doses. Can anybody confirm or deny this? If that was the case...

www.bluelight.org

There is another thread posted recently about the different types of krstom and the research for their effects and a user proposed that all the "red" , "green", and "white" strains were were actually just specific recipes of specific blends....I can't remember exactly but it was something like the red strains were mostly young plant leaves tge green were mostly adult leaves and the white had a large percent of the "bones" or the white skeletal veins of the plant leaf after the leaf is removed (he said tgry usually discard the "bones" except for white strains and whatever was in the bones made it very speedy.
This seemed intriguing to me because my white meang da thst I got years ago right from Indonesia is just something else....it's so much stronger and stimulating than any other krstom I've ever tried.
Like I'm fully wired for 12+hours and still need etizolam to get any sleep but that's on a large dose of like 10g (which is the max or ill barf....I do krstom.less then once a year these dsys)

 

[Xorkoth]

I read a very convincing article that researched this and found out that kratom names arent even given to the product until after its been processed dried and packed, and shipped across the world. Its just marketting, kratom does have varying degrees of alkaloids, and some batches are better than others, but that doesn't mean that your red bali comes from bali or is from a different kind of tree than the green bali or maeng da, or w/e. Do you want me to see if I can find it for you?

Oh I don't doubt that most commercial kratom is misrepresented and named whatever they want to name it. But kratom is indigenous to a number of Pacific islands, and its alkaloid content varies between those locations. So there is actually legitimately a range of types of kratom, it's just that you're likely not actually receiving what is being claimed from most companies.

EDIT: Interesting article though. I guess I haven't really looked into actual lab analyses of the plant in terms of ratios of alkaloids found, just relying on what I've read. So I could be wrong.

 

[Pickledlemons]

Oh I don't doubt that most commercial kratom is misrepresented and named whatever they want to name it. But kratom is indigenous to a number of Pacific islands, and its alkaloid content varies between those locations. So there is actually legitimately a range of types of kratom, it's just that you're likely not actually receiving what is being claimed from most companies.

Sure, there are good and bad batches of kratom, as Ive already said, that's not really the problem at hand though.

Since Kratom is named at most on the type of drying method used, and since that does not correlate with the type of alkaloids found in the product... that would make naming kratom strains as a way to determine effects profile, absolutely unreliable. And that's why I said what I did. Not because I think all kratom is the same and not because I think it only grows in one place.

 

[Jabberwocky]

All I can say is that vendor I am getting kratom from (shipping from Europe) for more than 5 years always had this strains (names): Thai (always only red and specifically said that it is banned in Thailand so that these trees are grown/farmed in another location), Malay (always only green), Borneo (specifically said that strained named Bali is actually Borneo as there is no kratom grown in Bali, and they had red and white), Sumatra (red and white), and Sumatra from Riau region (only one that they had all 3 colours).

When they started adding new strains or better to say new names - they specifically said that it is different way of drying or that it is based on some extract of kratom they already offer. They have no horn leaf or any funny names (except few blends that they openly say are not some specific strain but that they made some extract from Malay or Borneo kratom and that they are mixing it with other regular powder kratom). They were and still are pretty open about it.

With all this said, I can not find how Green Malay could be same strain as Red Thai (from this vendor). They are every time distinctly different. I have made blind dosing to my wife and SHE COULD EASILY TELL! There are differences in potency from batch to batch, which is expected from a plant, but I can tell very profound difference eve between Red Thai and Red Borneo. I have decided to limit my intake to Red Thai and Green Malay (as they seemed best value for money and they do feel different than let's say Sumatra White) but occasionally do buy some blend that they mix up.

If the thing about strains of kratom is true and that there is no difference between trees grown in Thailand vs Malaysia vs Borneo, I would be very surprised as I am not that prone do be deluded.

I do agree that some exotic names are not reflection of a true difference, but also think that there is a basic difference based on where (what island) kratom leaves are picked from and what technique of drying (this is secondary) is used. But there are only 4 different kratoms that I am truly aware about - Thai, Malay, Borneo and Sumatra. If they are all one and the same in their effects than I will question are morphine and oxycodon actually the same molecule just advertised differently.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I never found kratom stimulating (makes me nod out). Was actually very hard to adjust to from percocet/oxy and I was trying to get off those meanies with only kratom. For some reason I never truly nodded out on pills actually--and those were my true caffeine for a time. Longer settings where you have to really focus aren't the best to nod out during.. but it does work well with coffee or lighter stimulants like vyvanse, adderall, etc.

There are several bags that will just be absolute fire that you might obtain, and others that simply keep the withdrawal at bay and nothing more. Some list strain names yet I have never cared about that myself. Longer term use of kratom definitely (for me at least) causes some minor depression in between doses at times, and it could be the getting older but I definitely just do not have the energy I used to. However, that factor is really not that large in the grand scheme of things. Less energy is one of the better ailments that can happen to you from substances realistically. There's plenty of non-drug things one can do to gain energy right? Lower tolerance is really better for any substance. Don't get into the 20-40 grams a day range like some folks because then any of the better effects just go out the window!

 

[Pickledlemons]

All I can say is that vendor I am getting kratom from (shipping from Europe) for more than 5 years always had this strains (names): Thai (always only red and specifically said that it is banned in Thailand so that these trees are grown/farmed in another location), Malay (always only green), Borneo (specifically said that strained named Bali is actually Borneo as there is no kratom grown in Bali, and they had red and white), Sumatra (red and white), and Sumatra from Riau region (only one that they had all 3 colours).

When they started adding new strains or better to say new names - they specifically said that it is different way of drying or that it is based on some extract of kratom they already offer. They have no horn leaf or any funny names (except few blends that they openly say are not some specific strain but that they made some extract from Malay or Borneo kratom and that they are mixing it with other regular powder kratom). They were and still are pretty open about it.

With all this said, I can not find how Green Malay could be same strain as Red Thai (from this vendor). They are every time distinctly different. I have made blind dosing to my wife and SHE COULD EASILY TELL! There are differences in potency from batch to batch, which is expected from a plant, but I can tell very profound difference eve between Red Thai and Red Borneo. I have decided to limit my intake to Red Thai and Green Malay (as they seemed best value for money and they do feel different than let's say Sumatra White) but occasionally do buy some blend that they mix up.

If the thing about strains of kratom is true and that there is no difference between trees grown in Thailand vs Malaysia vs Borneo, I would be very surprised as I am not that prone do be deluded.

I do agree that some exotic names are not reflection of a true difference, but also think that there is a basic difference based on where (what island) kratom leaves are picked from and what technique of drying (this is secondary) is used. But there are only 4 different kratoms that I am truly aware about - Thai, Malay, Borneo and Sumatra. If they are all one and the same in their effects than I will question are morphine and oxycodon actually the same molecule just advertised differently.

I still don't think you are really understanding what is being said. Nobody is saying all your bags of kratom are the same, maybe you got one batch that had very distinct effects from another... because its a plant and alkaloid levels vary. It's just that the label does not correlate to what's in the bag. Did you read the article?

 

[Jabberwocky]

I still don't think you are really understanding what is being said. Nobody is saying all your bags of kratom are the same, maybe you got one batch that had very distinct effects from another... because its a plant and alkaloid levels vary. It's just that the label does not correlate to what's in the bag. Did you read the article?

I have read the article, watched the video and understand what you are saying. But, as that may be the case with majority of vendors (I don't know the USA market) I simply don't think that this is true with the vendor I am buying from. Green Malay is distinctively different then Red Thai. Every batch of Green Malay is distinctively different than the batch of Red Thai in the same way. If you gave me with me not knowing what the strain is, I could easily say the difference and tell you did I eat 5 grams of Green Malay, Red Thai or Red Borneo. I am talking about the vendor I am buying from. I am not so convinced that colour plays a huge difference but the region where kratom is grown does. Thai kratom, although legal from this year is grown on farm in another places but still has distinctly different effect than Malay kratom. Borneo kratom is again distinctively different. Not a huge difference but very noticeable. Again I am talking about the vendor I am buying from. I spoke about that in the past with the owner and was explained that region does play a difference in alkaloid content and that they don't sell kratom from the Philippines or Myanmar cause due to climate in those places kratom is not potent enough. I can see the similarity with poppy, which has locations, as every plant, that is more beneficial to it's growth and opioid alkaloid content and the regions where is less likely to be so rich in alkaloids and potent by weight. This are plants and that explanation makes sense to me. Same plant species can and does vary in alkaloid content from place to place (and from harvest to harvest, but location plays bigger role here). Also kratom from Myanmar is different species of kratom that is not that potent - according to vendor I trust.

I am repeating myself. I believe that there is truth in your argument in some cases and in my in some. But maybe I am under influence of placebo and marketing. Don't think I am but it is always a possibility. And I am sure that there are many sketchy sellers out there who use deceptive means including adding some chemicals to make kratom more potent or different. If you were talking only about strains regarding colours I wouldn't have nothing to say against your argument but if we are including regions where kratom is grown and named after I disagree. If kratom is labelled truthfully according to species and region that is grown in. There is difference in tomatoes in my country according are they grown in north or the south - even if they are exactly the same subspicies and seed used. So I see no reason why would another plant be different. Deceptive marketing and bad actors will always be the part of every industry that is not heavily regulated but I still believe that there us the difference between strains of kratom.

I am repeating myself. I believe that there is truth in your argument in some cases and in my in some. But maybe I am under influence of placebo and marketing. Don't think I am but it is always a possibility.

And I do want to point out that kratom is still not very well understood plan at all by western science. It is a very complex plant and reductionist approach that doesn't even understand how to parse the plant regarding effects is doomed to fail if we are talking about differences that are in the field "oxycodone vs morphine type of feeling". Heck, even the molecules that pharma tweaks, like pregabalin, are still quite a mistery regarding their mode of action. Thats why I would be very cautious in having a very firm stance in situations like this. Rant over.

I just wanted to point out that I have edited this post multiple times so this rant is a product of multiple edits. Sorry for the length and repeating.