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Kratom Addiction/ Need Help After Withdrawals Are Over

Hey PNM and Asiam,

So, tomorrow, I am going to a gig with my hubby (he's an architect, but has been in a band for the last forty years), and I ALWAYS drink at his gigs. So I'm taking a laundry basket of stuff to do (there's usually a green room to hang in). Thank PNM for the kind words. I guess by 'asshole' I mean REALLY NOT SMART. How is it going with you? Do you go to a meeting every day? How did you find a sponsor? I've got to run, but please keep me posted.

Love,
n
'
 
Hey Nancy,

Good luck today with getting through that gig. The strangest and seemingly one of the most difficult things early in sobriety is not drinking while doing things during which you normally drank. It feels damn odd, but it gets better. I'm doing OK, but have more to tell about than my time permits this morning. My sponsor actually found me at my first meeting. I raised my hand when they asked if I'd ever been to an AA meeting. He talked to me after the meeting and I got his #. Known for over a year now. Fucking fantastic guy. I never met an alcoholic who doesn't care, or isn't caring. There's a warmth and caringness to us that defies description and is almost beyond belief. You're in good hands.

More soon, love,
pnm
 
Hey PNM,

Thanks. I hope all is well. By 'more to tell' I guess you're struggling (?) with the day to day stuff, or you're doing really well. I can't tell you how much it means to me for you to check in. I can't go to a meeting today or tomorrow, but Sunday is a big women's meeting, and I hope to find a sponsor there. How's the gf situation? Are things going back to normal? How about the Kratom? Are you at peace with how that's going? I'm thinking about you, and look forward to hearing what's going on?

My husband and I went out to a restaurant that we go to all the time, in which I usually ordered at least two drinks, sometimes a pitcher of margaritas. Anyhoo, he ordered a beer, I got water, and later I asked him if it was weird for him - me not drinking. He said (emphatically) No! Not at all. Then he said, "I don't think you really need to completely quit - just every once in awhile. Then, when he saw my face, he said, "Unless you don't think you can do that." So I responded, "That's the thing. I don't think I can." I think a couple of things are going on:

he doesn't really think I'm an alcoholic
he doesn't really want to accept I have the disease of alcoholism
he doesn't understand alcoholism since his family is not a long line of alkies like mine.
he just needs time and education to see what's really going on.

or all of the above.

He loves me, and I know that he always wants what is best for me, and so I think it's up to me to educate him and give him time.

Well, have a great weekend. I'll talk to you soon.

ASIAM - how is it going?

Love,
N
 
Yes indeed Nance, I'm struggling. Well, I'm actually getting better through my AA program, staying sober, and in my spiritual progress. My gf, as I am learning though, is not. My sponsor said a few that times that often what happens when an alcoholic starts to get better is that those closest to him/her become angry or upset or lots of other things. Apparently, it's easy to play the victim when the alcoholic next to you is clearly the root of all your troubles. But when he gets better, a significant other will often find that they are not better, and it becomes very hard for them to accept that they are sick too.

She says she's dealing with feeling like she did last summer. Though she may have had an inkling before then, last summer was when she found out her dad had a serious problem with alcohol. That's also when she found out that her parent's marriage was far, far from the fairy tale she had in her head.

So now, she's angry. Angry at me. Angry that she needs a program. In her words. "still very unwilling", referring to her program in al anon. People who live with us (alcoholics) often (not always) become sick too. There's a pretty good chance she wouldn't have ignored or tolerated my drinking the way she did in the beginning of our relationship if she hadn't at that point already been impacted by the disease of alcoholism. Alcoholics take hostages, to use Burns Brady's metaphor.

She also feels angry at me and guilty for me not telling her because she feels like she could have helped me. This means she has not got step one. That she is powerless over alcohol, even as a non-alcoholic. The catch-22 for me is that what she needs to hear would only make her angrier if it came from me. If I suggest she call her sponsor, or suggest she work her program, or suggest any fucking thing that's got to do with her recovery for her part in this--her unwilling/unknowing part in all this--it will only make her angrier and more resentful of me.

I worry for you Nancy about what's behind your husband's feelings about this. Perhaps if you begin recovery, he may feel guilty drinking around you, or he may question he own relationship with alcohol. And whether he has a problem or not, that might make him feel uncomfortable.

Your four characterizations of what you think is going on with him may well be pretty close, but it can't be the whole picture, and even he can't know the whole picture unless he does something actively to show he wants to respond to his need for education over time about this disease, it's many facets, and the myriad ways it affects different types of alcoholics and problem drinkers. Whatever we want to call ourselves...

Here's where I think you're wrong though. It's not up to you to educate him. It's up to him and people he might want to find in al anon if he's willing. You have to get you well. You cannot do that for yourself and someone else at the same time. It's been tried to many times. It doesn't work. It just doesn't. Never has. You can show him how he can help you, by finding some support and education on his own. And you can go to meetings together. But please, do not take the burden of educating him and leading him through this on. First, as a newly sober person, your brain is just not going to cooperate the way you'd like for awhile. Burns calls it sawdust for brains. It's not THAT bad, but through our drinking and our obsession to drink, the physical and psychic impact of those, this leaves us with a lack of capacity to take on such a thing.

But the real trouble is that alcohol is cunning, baffling and powerful. If you try to take all that on in helping him through this, as much as you want to out of your love for him, problems in understanding will arise. Varying opinions on the weight of this or that will lead to resentments. Your marriage seems pretty strong as it is. Keep it that way. Speak up at a newcomer's meeting and find a sponsor. If he's willing to go to al anon and see what it's all about, then I applaud him. But do not push him. That is just my advice. Of course, you know him better than anyone, but at the same time, I know alcoholism a little more than you do right now. So play it safe.

Oh yeah, the kratom. Then I gotta get some sleep. My habit is not progressing in terms of usage. When I'm busier, or do something fun, like tonight I went square dancing (no, not a hillbilly) I don't use as much. Or I forget to use some and get some chills and stuff. No biggie. I have yet another order on the way. My biggest order yet, and I am going to pray and meditate my way away from it with this batch. I'm giving myself the first 2 days to use as I please, and see how it make me feel. Then I can note all the things that I want from being free from all of it. Taper from there, and be free.

And Asiam, I also would like to know how you are, and all the other people who used to post here. I suppose Nancy and I ran them off and sort of monopolized the thread. Sorry! All are very welcome still, we promise!

Love to all,
pnm
 
podsnomo, I'm not really sure I can add anything to what you wrote.
That was an amazing post; I savored reading it, and I thank you for it.

Much love,

~ Vaya
 
Lots to think about PNM. And process. Thank you for your incredibly helpful post. I did fine at the gig last night. I will post more later. Going to a women's meeting tomorrow to find a sponsor. I think my husband may not want to look at his own drinking (one or two drinks a day or every other day). The thing is, he has no problem with it, but not having me as a drinking buddy has shifted things. You're right about everything.

Love,
N
 
Vaya said:
podsnomo, I'm not really sure I can add anything to what you wrote.
That was an amazing post; I savored reading it, and I thank you for it.

Much love,

~ Vaya
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nancylynnsmith said:
Lots to think about PNM. And process. Thank you for your incredibly helpful post. I did fine at the gig last night. I will post more later. Going to a women's meeting tomorrow to find a sponsor. I think my husband may not want to look at his own drinking (one or two drinks a day or every other day). The thing is, he has no problem with it, but not having me as a drinking buddy has shifted things. You're right about everything.

Love,
N
Click to expand...

Thank you both for your kind words. Helping other people helps me get better too. And I'm so glad that I'm getting better, and I can tell because it seems I don't give rubbish for advice anymore. Trust me, I used to give the worst advice in the world, and mostly to myself!

And Nance, I'm not right about EVERYthing. ;-) So, you can't be his drinking buddy anymore. Maybe that means you can't chill with him while he drinks, at least for a while. Or maybe it doesn't. All you can be sure of now is that there's not much you can be sure of right now. Remember always to be kind to yourself through this new, and IMHO, incredible journey you're embarking on. And be kind to him and to both of you too. Early sobriety is a good time to do something kind of new, yet not extreme, but fun. Like something in nature. A short canoe trip...something like that. If he's willing to work with you through this, then count yourself extremely blessed. And all you need, for yourself and from him, is the tiniest bit of willingness. That willingness is a seed that can become a mighty oak.

Yes, there is a lot to think about and process, but don't attempt it. Take today as best you can. Keep an open mind in starting your program, work your program, and everything will fall into place. I can promise that much. One day at a time. Message to messenger, the receiver and the reciprocity.

Love and well wishes,
pnm
 
i posted, and then deleted, becuase i'm a little paranoid about putting personal things out there. but i dont know where else to report to! i have been having kratom every 3rd day and the last 3 days have been really bad with substances in general. 2 days of black out drinking alone in a row and then I tried something pretty hard which was a mistake. I also realize I have a bigger problem that all this is connected to and I see what will help me the best. I am hoping that after this, I can just quit EVERYTHING... and i'd love to flush that kratom and say bye bye to addictions
 
asiam said:
i posted, and then deleted, becuase i'm a little paranoid about putting personal things out there. but i dont know where else to report to! i have been having kratom every 3rd day and the last 3 days have been really bad with substances in general. 2 days of black out drinking alone in a row and then I tried something pretty hard which was a mistake. I also realize I have a bigger problem that all this is connected to and I see what will help me the best. I am hoping that after this, I can just quit EVERYTHING... and i'd love to flush that kratom and say bye bye to addictions
Click to expand...

You sure do sound willing! That's a fantastic start, believe it or not. You also sound like me, an alcoholic and an addict. That just my humble guess though. Only you can decide that. If you want to quit everything, my humble guess is that you'll need help.

"If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it — then you are ready to take certain steps. At some of these we balked. thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely. Remember that we deal with alcohol — cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us."

That's from the AA big book. I'm sure you know how many steps are referred to. :) Join the fellowship, I humbly implore!

The only requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop drinking/using. Another quote, "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a (wo)man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation." —HERBERT SPENCER

You can do it. But I beg you not to try to do it alone. There are far too many willing, loving, compassionate, wonderful people out there who are just waiting to help. I've never met an alcoholic who doesn't care. There's a deep caring about us that defies description and is almost beyond belief.

PM me if you want to get some of that personal stuff off your chest. I will guard your anonymity and your confidence like Fort Knox.

Hang in there. There is a solution, I promise.

warmest regards,
pnm
 
Dear Asiam,

Hang in there. You're on your way. As PNM said, the WILLINGNESS is the key to this. Keep posting.

Love,
N
 
Yoooooooo,

Sorry, I've been busy. Anyhoo, how is everyone? I had a job interview today for a teaching position that I think I really want. I didn't think I had a snowball's chance because during the first round they had hundreds of applicants. So I went in there with a 'whatever' attitude. Had a really great interview, was told I was only one of five out of 500+ applicants who had been called back, and that I 'had a really good interview.' So anyway, what did all this do for me? Made me want to go home and DRINK A LOT OF JACK DANIELS!!!!! What the fuck. I felt completely hyped up. So I went to a meeting. I'm doing all right. Actually told my husband where I went and why. He keeps saying he's proud of me.

Pods! What's up? Asiam, HOLD FAST! As my Scottish mom and dad would say (it's the family motto). Anyhoo, I usually held fast to my drink, but don't give up!!

Love,
N

Love,
 
I'd say micro-dosing with iboga is the way to go. Also from what I've read, when micro-dosing, one becomes highly sensitive to opioids but does not develop any significant tolerance or dependance. :)
 
Mycotheologist said:
I'd say micro-dosing with iboga is the way to go. Also from what I've read, when micro-dosing, one becomes highly sensitive to opioids but does not develop any significant tolerance or dependance. :)
Click to expand...

The way to go for what? I don't know that anyone here is looking to add a hallucinogen to their diets. Most, if not all, in this thread want to be clean and free.
 
nancylynnsmith said:
Yoooooooo,

Sorry, I've been busy. Anyhoo, how is everyone? I had a job interview today for a teaching position that I think I really want. I didn't think I had a snowball's chance because during the first round they had hundreds of applicants. So I went in there with a 'whatever' attitude. Had a really great interview, was told I was only one of five out of 500+ applicants who had been called back, and that I 'had a really good interview.' So anyway, what did all this do for me? Made me want to go home and DRINK A LOT OF JACK DANIELS!!!!! What the fuck. I felt completely hyped up. So I went to a meeting. I'm doing all right. Actually told my husband where I went and why. He keeps saying he's proud of me.

Pods! What's up? Asiam, HOLD FAST! As my Scottish mom and dad would say (it's the family motto). Anyhoo, I usually held fast to my drink, but don't give up!!

Love,
N

Love,
Click to expand...

So, what IS up? Well, I wish I knew really. Things are still on the rocks with my girlfriend. I went over there last night and we "got friendly" again, but I don't know what it means. When I first told her about the poppy pods about 3 weeks ago she got really angry. Angry at me, angry at needing al anon, just ANGRY. And she said that night that she thought I shouldn't stay there for a while because I'd be there and she'd be mad at me and she didn't want that to be a toxic environment or something like that. I don't know that things have changed. I saw her night before last too, and that night as well as last night we didn't talk about anything to do with our relationship or anything, recovery, nothing like that.

When we do talk about it she gets really upset. She said four days ago that we needed to make a rule (read: she made a rule) that we wouldn't talk about stuff at night. Night is the hard part of the day for her, when she thinks about her dad and when things upset her more, etc. Well guess what, we only see each other at night. Pshaw! And I feel like she only wants the comfy parts of the realtionship and doesn't want to face her feelings on so many things. I don't know how much longer I can do things like this. I love her dearly, but I'm starting to think about how it could take a LONG time to get over this or to start getting better. She's pretty sick from the impact of her father's and my alcoholism. And for me, I've gotten better through AA. Her dad's still an in-denial, active alcoholic. And she has a million pounds of rage, resentment, bitterness, self-pity, and pure shit built up that she's not dealing with.

M sponsor tells me, and the program teaches, that I am powerless over this, just as I am powerless over alcohol. I said this before, I think, that if I tell her what she needs to hear: that she needs to embrace her program and work through her rage etc., that she needs to realize, admit, and internalize her powerlessness over alcohol, and everything else--if I tell her those things it will only make her angrier. I want to help her and for the first time in our relationship my trying to help is exactly what will do the opposite.

I'm starting to feel, sometimes, like we're falling apart, or that it's inevitable. And I'm so damn scared of being alone that I even made a profile on a dating site b/c, my crazy reasoning is that it took me almost a year to find her, and so I might as well start now. Now she's IMing me and asked how she is. Her: i'm ok. Me: care to elaborate? Her: i'm full of good food and trying not to think too much about anything. Yeah, that's really fucking helpful. I guess that's how we'll mend this relationship, by ignoring. Fuckinghell!

Not long ago, this would have made me want to drink. Right now, I just want to go to sleep so I can get up, drink some good coffee, and meditate before work. I feel like I'm just barely OK though. And now kratom is turning into a fucking secret. Maybe I should just tell her about so she can find herself a good enough excuse to dump me because she's too emotionally lazy, unwilling to do what it takes, and obviously doesn't love me enough to help herself so we can be happy together?!?!

Fuckalmighty. I gotta go walk my dog or I'm gonna break some shit.

More later when I cool down.

And God help any fucker who crosses me or tries to talk smack to me while I'm out.

Update: luckily for everyone, no one crossed me last night while I was walking my dog. Truth is though, I was hoping some punk would try to start something. Damn, I need to reign in my emotional rages! I'm much better this morning.
 
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podsnomo said:
The way to go for what? I don't know that anyone here is looking to add a hallucinogen to their diets. Most, if not all, in this thread want to be clean and free.
Click to expand...

Do your research. Microdoses have no psychedelic effects but have therapeutic effects that will alleviate PAWS and quell cravings. It doesn't just suppress these symptoms, it accelerates recovery.
 
OK, that's all I was asking. But puhhlease don't tell me to do my research. If I did "research" every time somebody posted something without an explanation I wouldn't have time to do much else. So if you want to make in informative post we need to have the information; that's what makes it informative. Or at least tell us we need to go searching elsewhere for the reason you think a substance is "the way to go".
 
Psychedelic doses (commonly called "flood" doses) of ibogaine are by far the most beneficial. They not only have physiological therapeutic properties, they also have great psychotherapeutic value. For dealing with acute opioid withdrawals using ibogaine, its all or nothing. You have to take a psychedelic dose to feel significant relief from the w/d symptoms. For PAWS though, micro-dosing works.
 
Hmmm. Thank you for the clarity. :) So, without sourcing or pricing; is this stuff attainable in the US? I find that it is a schedule 1 drug in the U.S. I also read that it comes from a relatively small geographic area in Africa. So, is it attainable on the street? Or do you find it online? What continent/country are you on/in if you don't mind saying so. If I were to have serious PAWS after my taper from kratom, this might be appealing to me, given that the microdose doesn't trip you out, and I see a lot of info and reports supporting your claim that it is a good therapy for addiction and WD. Also myco, is the value in ibogaine similar in pharmacology or otherwise to using DXM in large doses for acute WD and in smaller doses for PAWS?

Nancy, did you read my last post (the long one)? It got wrapped onto the previous page.

Asiam? How goes it? I hope I didn't run you off with my AA-speak. It's just that it works for me; it doesn't mean it's for you or that you need it necessarily.

Myco, feel free to PM me if you don't want to divulge anything publicly. I'll guard your confidence as steadfastly as I do everyone else's.

Peace and love to all,
pnm
 
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Hey Pods,

I sent you a private message. All is well here. I'm physically active, haven't slipped with Kratom or drinking, even though I've come close a couple of times - just with 'wanting' more than anything. But I don't want to start over. It was hard to quit Kratom and it was hard to quit drinking. I would hate to be sent all the way back to 'start' again for a minor and fleeting pleasure.

Keep in touch@!
N
 
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