Kratom Addiction/ Need Help After Withdrawals Are Over

[asiam]

So today's total was 2 tsp, and it did take away the horrible depression for at least 4 hours. Of course there was nausea, and now I am extremely agitated/irritable and the depression is coming back even harder. Not worth the dosing, and next time I dose to stave away withdrawal, I will stick to 1 tsp or none at all. I am so taken aback by how unexpected all of this is suddenly. Hence the 3 posts in a row

 

[podsnomo]

No way man. Kratom WDs are nothing compared to what I dealt with poppies. I can get away from the kratom without going back to my original, much meaner demon.

You know what your best bet would be, just drop off the kratom and get some poppy seeds. If there washed or not it doesn't matter, it has a longer half life, taper from that and you'll be good. Today is day 6 for me and I was actually able to sleep in this morning, I wake up a lot during the middle of the night and my legs are a little restless. But it's nothing a little excercise doesn't cure. Just get away from the kratom, it's making things to complicated. Get some natural herbs like valerien, kava, california poppy, or passion flower to help you sleep.

 

[podsnomo]

So today's total was 2 tsp, and it did take away the horrible depression for at least 4 hours. Of course there was nausea, and now I am extremely agitated/irritable and the depression is coming back even harder. Not worth the dosing, and next time I dose to stave away withdrawal, I will stick to 1 tsp or none at all. I am so taken aback by how unexpected all of this is suddenly. Hence the 3 posts in a row

Man, sounds like you have some not-so-good kratom? To have nausea either means you don't respond well to the strain of kratom you're using or you're using too much at once. Might it be the enhanced stuff? And tsp? Dude, you should get a little scale (jewelry scale on amazon around 10 bucks) so you know how much you're taking.

It's OK that you've been taken aback. Going through this shit is a learning process, so don't view your setbacks, changes, and moodswings as negatives. Yes, they suck, but they are positives in that they teach what you can handle, what you can't, and remind you why you are suffering through them; so you can be free of dealing with shit someday soon.

In the midst of the worst, a day seems like a year. Once you get through it, those days will seem like blips in the past, and you'll be so grateful you did it.

Hang in there brother.

peace and love,
pnm

 

[Opanaking]

Yeah that wasn't a good recommendation on my part. The point I was trying to make is being dependent to a less potent opiate is still not good. Lets say someone was taking morphine then they switched to codeine to withdrawal, then stayed on codeine. It would still suck being dependent on codeine even though it's weak. Kratom is good as a withdrawal aid when taken in small enough amounts, not large enough amounts to hinder your recovery, just enough to ease the withdrawal symptoms and make it easier to go through when it gets to intense. That's the proper way. The way I look at it is the weaker ones still produce withdrawal and that's what you want away from.

 

[podsnomo]

Yeah that wasn't a good recommendation on my part. The point I was trying to make is being dependent to a less potent opiate is still not good. Lets say someone was taking morphine then they switched to codeine to withdrawal, then stayed on codeine. It would still suck being dependent on codeine even though it's weak. Kratom is good as a withdrawal aid when taken in small enough amounts, not large enough amounts to hinder your recovery, just enough to ease the withdrawal symptoms and make it easier to go through when it gets to intense. That's the proper way. The way I look at it is the weaker ones still produce withdrawal and that's what you want away from.

I think you're right on there man. And I know what you mean about wanting away from the WDs. I'll be honest, after about a month and half of moderate agony on the poppy pod taper, I've let myself get into the kratom more than I intended. Now I'll have to go through some more WD, but hopefully it will be easier than my pod adventure. I certainly know how to get through a taper though. I did with alcohol, twice. I did with pods once after an unsuccessful CT attempt. Now I'm trying to taper off the kratom.

I don't have a good schedule yet though. I was on the pods so long that I knew what to expect from being off them for certain amounts of time or what it was gonna go through when I had o stretch what I had until a shipment arrived.

Yesterday I went on a 7 mile canoe trip (awesome!) And I used less than the day before. Today, I've used as much as yesterday, but in 2 larger doses instead of 4 smaller ones. This seems to work better. I took my larger a.m. dose at 8 and didn't start to feel the first part of WDs until 4. That's 8 hours, so my reasoning is that my second, similar-sized dose will last me until tomorrow. That way there's 16 hours between the 4 p.m. and 8 a.m. doses. This will allow some of what I cal WD progress to happen overnight.

I used this strategy to good effect some of the time during my pod taper. If the WDs were not coming on strong enough to keep from getting to sleep, then I could stay asleep, and wake up feeling the harder WDs, and then take my next dose on the taper schedule.

It's a theory, but the way I imagine it working is that on a taper you spread out what would be a monumental WD process over a longer time, and the more moderate WDs you go through, the more your brain starts adjusting to being without the substance. So going through moderate WDs during the taper = progress towards normalizing without the drug.

I think I'm going to go on with 2 doses a day for now rather than 4. I'll do what I did yesterday and today, or maybe a gram less each dose, for one or 2 more days, then drop about a third and wait 3-5 days for some stabilizing, and continue that way. I do thirds when doses are larger and then I'll do smaller fractions when I get lower and closer to the jump.

Right now I'm doing 11-12g twice a day instead of about 3g 4 times a day. Another complicating factor here though is my current stash of several various strains: maeng da, bali, malaysian, and one just labeled "kratom" from a different vendor, which is similar to the maeng da. Anyway, I'll do the math today, and if I need to order more will order only one strain, and only enough to finish the taper, with some wiggle room for unexpected bumps along the way. Like on my taper from pods I dropped from 7g to 5g (both tiny compared to my worst times of up to 90g/day) but had too much of a reaction, so went to 6 and stayed there a few extra days before dropping by single grams every 3 or 4 days.

I'm all over the place with what I'm saying, but what I did was I used kratom for the first time on my second to last day of 1g/day pod powder. Such a fucking relief! I was having my Bday party at my house and wanted to not be moderately miserable for once, as I had been for 6 weeks. I also snuck some vodka that night, as I had been for a week or two towards the end of the pod taper. Damn those days were rough.

Right now it's easy to get too comfortable because kratom is working for me now, but I know it'll quit working and tolerance will continue to rise. I know it's best to taper now, and it helps to say here that I'm doing so. SO I expect you guys to hold me to it!

thanks and peace to all,
pnm

 

[Beat It]

Pods I think you might be using this thread to procrastinate a little bit maybe? Are you currently tapering from much higher doses or are you at that point where you know you gotta quit but don't want to yet? I found that even after 9 months my tolerance was still relatively similar to what it was when I started. I kinda just got forced into quitting because I messed up an order and I went through 4 days of withdrawal so I figured I'de just ride it out. I probably wouldn't have if I would have known it was gonna last for almost three weeks... I think it lasted so long for me because when I'm at my baseline I'm already predisposed to depression.

For you guys who are talking about the brain-fog and agitation that comes with long term use of Kratom it might be caused in part by dehydration. I know that when I was taking it daily I would have to drink a bunch of water otherwise my vision would get fucked up, I wouldn't be able to think strait, and I would feel agitated. Also, taking a multivitamin and getting sunlight would alleviate some of the negative side effects.

Taking those doses last week was a bad idea. It was strange I only used it a few days in a row (maybe around 2 ounces) and I was fine after 24 hours of not using it but then around 48 hours I started experiencing w/ds AGAIN... I figured they would only last a day or so but so far they've lasted 3 days. The w/ds aren't as bad as they were the first time but I don't have any sleep meds/ benzos to help me sleep so in some ways its more painful. I was also using PST in-between the days I would take Kratom and I wonder if that had something to do with it. At least I got everything done that I needed to for Probation! Now as soon as I turn in my paperwork my case will be terminated after 2 years!

Loperamide can basically totally eliminate my withdrawal symptoms. I took a big dose today and I feel totally fine. I know tomorrow I'm gonna kinda feel shitty again as seeing I give myself a day in-between loperamide doses. I know it doesn't always work with harder opiates but I took around 50 mg (I know thats a lot) and my physical symptoms disappeared. It took about an hour and a half to kick in but when it finally did I fell asleep like a baby and stayed asleep all day... It was nice considering I didn't get a good night sleep for 4 days before that.

At this point in my life, I don't know if I want to stay off Kratom. It's hard to decide because on one hand, I can work so much harder at everything when I'm on Kratom but, on the other, I know in the long-term this probably won't be the case. It is also awesome at keeping me off of other drugs while I'm on it but while experiencing withdrawals my mind has been turning back to alcohol and other drugs. I'm going to a University in the fall and I want to be on my A game. If that means staying sober for awhile during the summer and then maybe getting back on Kratom then so be it. I know it's not ideal, but realistically I fell as though I'm going to be under too much stress not to have something to take the edge off. Opiates are such a powerful force. I feel like they can be used for good and evil but it's so difficult to try and control.

 

[podsnomo]

Yes, I'm procrastinating. And I'm not coming from far higher doses, and I know I gotta quit. I do and don't want to though. I know, from all my previous experiences, that all drugs, alcohol included, eventually stop doing what got us hooked on them. They just quit working. Sooner or later. And the later it is, the harder it is. So I know I gotta get this kratom problem solved fast.

Which brings me to the end of your post. I don't think it's difficult to try and control, I think it's impossible. It eventually gets you. At least, it eventually gets me, and every other addict I've ever known. If you go back to it man, just know that more than likely you're setting yourself up for worse later on. For me, I'd like to get to the point where taking the edge off means working out, gardening, sex, jerking off, doing something creative, etc. Positive things that will enhance my life rather than eventually fucking it over. I know I can't control it.

And that's the first step in AA. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

Yep, that's me. Powerless. And it feels good to know it. Without help it is too much for me.

God, (even though I don't believe in god), please relieve me of the bondage of self!

pnm

Pods I think you might be using this thread to procrastinate a little bit maybe? Are you currently tapering from much higher doses or are you at that point where you know you gotta quit but don't want to yet? I found that even after 9 months my tolerance was still relatively similar to what it was when I started. I kinda just got forced into quitting because I messed up an order and I went through 4 days of withdrawal so I figured I'de just ride it out. I probably wouldn't have if I would have known it was gonna last for almost three weeks... I think it lasted so long for me because when I'm at my baseline I'm already predisposed to depression.

For you guys who are talking about the brain-fog and agitation that comes with long term use of Kratom it might be caused in part by dehydration. I know that when I was taking it daily I would have to drink a bunch of water otherwise my vision would get fucked up, I wouldn't be able to think strait, and I would feel agitated. Also, taking a multivitamin and getting sunlight would alleviate some of the negative side effects.

Taking those doses last week was a bad idea. It was strange I only used it a few days in a row (maybe around 2 ounces) and I was fine after 24 hours of not using it but then around 48 hours I started experiencing w/ds AGAIN... I figured they would only last a day or so but so far they've lasted 3 days. The w/ds aren't as bad as they were the first time but I don't have any sleep meds/ benzos to help me sleep so in some ways its more painful. I was also using PST in-between the days I would take Kratom and I wonder if that had something to do with it. At least I got everything done that I needed to for Probation! Now as soon as I turn in my paperwork my case will be terminated after 2 years!

Loperamide can basically totally eliminate my withdrawal symptoms. I took a big dose today and I feel totally fine. I know tomorrow I'm gonna kinda feel shitty again as seeing I give myself a day in-between loperamide doses. I know it doesn't always work with harder opiates but I took around 50 mg (I know thats a lot) and my physical symptoms disappeared. It took about an hour and a half to kick in but when it finally did I fell asleep like a baby and stayed asleep all day... It was nice considering I didn't get a good night sleep for 4 days before that.

At this point in my life, I don't know if I want to stay off Kratom. It's hard to decide because on one hand, I can work so much harder at everything when I'm on Kratom but, on the other, I know in the long-term this probably won't be the case. It is also awesome at keeping me off of other drugs while I'm on it but while experiencing withdrawals my mind has been turning back to alcohol and other drugs. I'm going to a University in the fall and I want to be on my A game. If that means staying sober for awhile during the summer and then maybe getting back on Kratom then so be it. I know it's not ideal, but realistically I fell as though I'm going to be under too much stress not to have something to take the edge off. Opiates are such a powerful force. I feel like they can be used for good and evil but it's so difficult to try and control.

 

[asiam]

I think the main problem is that my kratom is THAI not BALI...... I feel like Thai kratom releases more dopamine and, norepinephrine and adrenaline, but has less effect on the Mu opiod receptors. I have found tha Bali kratom goes down well with the tolerance I have, but thai kratom will give me horrible negative effects (extreme rage!) .They are very different things, according to my body at least. I am actually considering buying bali kratom just so that the negative side effects aren't so harsh, so that I can taper. Right now, taking about 8 grams a day (4 grams in the morning and 4 grams in the evening) seem like a good taper, but I don't want them to include the harsh effects that Thai kratom comes with, so I may order some Bali and some Stem and vein powder tomorrow.

 

[podsnomo]

Cool man. Let us know how it goes. I read, maybe in the kratom mega thread, that someone had great results using stem powder to combat WDs and lower tolerance. I may consider looking for some stem powder too. I hear it's cheap, and if it keeps the WDs at bay and helps a taper, thus helping a dude quit, then awesomeness.

I haven't had the negative effects you mention, but wonder if I might develop them. I do get more of the adrenaline feeling from the maeng da (thai) than the others. I once took some bali to "top off" a good maeng da buzz and got nauseous and felt like shit, so now I'm leery of it. I've only taken the bali at night. Maybe I'll try taking some bali for my later dose today. I decided instead of 12 to do 11g this morning. Then I'll be dropping to 9g tomorrow and keep that at twice a day for 3-5 days depending on how it affects me.

Definitely let me/us know how the stem powder works in your taper/quit process.

Best o' luck,
pods

I think the main problem is that my kratom is THAI not BALI...... I feel like Thai kratom releases more dopamine and, norepinephrine and adrenaline, but has less effect on the Mu opiod receptors. I have found tha Bali kratom goes down well with the tolerance I have, but thai kratom will give me horrible negative effects (extreme rage!) .They are very different things, according to my body at least. I am actually considering buying bali kratom just so that the negative side effects aren't so harsh, so that I can taper. Right now, taking about 8 grams a day (4 grams in the morning and 4 grams in the evening) seem like a good taper, but I don't want them to include the harsh effects that Thai kratom comes with, so I may order some Bali and some Stem and vein powder tomorrow.

 

[Opanaking]

Podsnomo, your theory of a taper is right on. The whole deal is to come down when your tapering so that when you do stop you wont have as much withdrawal to go through. Really you dont want to get rid of withdrawal completely, you want to make it so that it's not intense and you can get through it without relapsing. Twice a day is a great idea, I would go down to dosing 3 times a day and have a really small mid day dose then eventually you just get rid of the mid day dose and your at twice a day. Then you need to make the decision if you want to get rid of your morning dose or your night dose. With more sedating stuff I would get rid of the morning dose and just have the night dose towards the end of the taper. Then you will start taking away from one of those doses until your just left with dosing once a day. From there reduce the last dose slowly, then before you drop off completely skip one day, dose, skip one day, dose, skip 2 days, dose, skip 2 days, dose, then just quit. Based on how your feeling you can choose how far you want to take the last stage.

Another good thing you can start doing is separating your doses. Weigh them out and put them in bags ahead of time, then put your main stash away. This way you wont be tempted to just take a bunch when your feeling the withdrawal. As for the not sleeping at night, that's just something your going to have to go through for a little bit. Eventually your sleep will go back to normal, after all a little insomnia never killed anyone

Good luck! Keep up with the outdoor activities and stay as busy as possible.

 

[nancylynnsmith]

I have used Kratom, every day for the last three years. Most days, 2 or 3 times a day. I quit about a month ago. Now I'm a slug. Depressed and the anxiety is ridiculous. I'm trying to decide if I was just nuts and I need to get used to, "...this is as good as it gets..." or maybe I'll feel better later. Ugh.

 

[podsnomo]

Oh, it gets better. Much better. After 3 years of anything it can take your brain/mind/body (and soul?) about 6 months to get back to feeling normal. A month is quite an achievement! Stay with it and you'll notice it getting better day by day, week by week, esp if you're exercising, eating well, and doing other healthy/fun things to help speed up your recovery process.

Let us know if you want tips or suggestions. These fellers in this thread are awesome.

And welcome to yet another newcomer to our thread, Nancy.

Peace,
podsnomo

I have used Kratom, every day for the last three years. Most days, 2 or 3 times a day. I quit about a month ago. Now I'm a slug. Depressed and the anxiety is ridiculous. I'm trying to decide if I was just nuts and I need to get used to, "...this is as good as it gets..." or maybe I'll feel better later. Ugh.

 

[Beat It]

I have used Kratom, every day for the last three years. Most days, 2 or 3 times a day. I quit about a month ago. Now I'm a slug. Depressed and the anxiety is ridiculous. I'm trying to decide if I was just nuts and I need to get used to, "...this is as good as it gets..." or maybe I'll feel better later. Ugh.

I'm in the same boat except I wasn't using as long but trust me you WILL start to feel better. It is just going to take time. If you read this thread you will see there's a lot of good information on how you can help speed up the progress.

Basically by taking a kratom everyday you changed the chemistry in your brain and now your brain has to readapt to not having any outside chemicals coming in. It's a painful process but there's a lot of things you can do to help and I'll outline the simple ones.

1. If you are still experiencing any physical withdrawals I would go to the store and get some loperamide. I would take double or triple the recommended dose but you can only do this every other day, for obvious reasons.

2. Do some Cardio exercises. This will release endorphins which are the body's natural opiates. You will feel so much better.

3. Eat whole foods and eat often.

Glad your here with us nancy and hope you start feeling better soon.

 

[andyn6990]

Heya , Ive not been doin too bad i dabbled a bit last week a couple of times with some indo coz of the depression but still trying to stay strong though. It hasnt flaired up any physical withdrawals again which is good although before i was on bali when i was fully addicted its wierd because the bali i was taking felt so mourish ,it almost felt like my vendor was putting something else with it (i hope not), asiam i know what you mean about the different strains and there effects , when i was addicted to the bali i switched for a bit to an indo strain and it was a lot more energetic and was not giving me the warm opioid feeling that the bali was giving me . Ive also tried Thai before and that was the most energizing strain ive tried , Ive been sober the last 3 days with no kratom but keep getting those annoying thoughts of using kratom in my head haha so im trying to stay strong and ignore the temptations!

 

[podsnomo]

Well, staying honest here, I cheated on my "taper" yesterday. I had one of those 9a.m. to 10p.m. days and had to take more than I planned to stay with it. Or, I FELT like I had to take more than my plan to stay with it.

UGH! Man, Andy, 3 days seems like a long way to go for me, 'cause without it for more than few hours after the WDs start, I start feeling kinda crazy.

I recall though that taking a normal, recommended dose of DXM plus a double dose of loperamide did wonders for WDs when I had them before, so I may need to get some AD pills and some cough syrup handy. It's the achy legs and anxiety that get me feeling nutso.

What have your symptoms been like andy? Are you just dealing with the mental cravings now, or both.

Keep fightin' the good fight brother!

pods

Heya , Ive not been doin too bad i dabbled a bit last week a couple of times with some indo coz of the depression but still trying to stay strong though. It hasnt flaired up any physical withdrawals again which is good although before i was on bali when i was fully addicted its wierd because the bali i was taking felt so mourish ,it almost felt like my vendor was putting something else with it (i hope not), asiam i know what you mean about the different strains and there effects , when i was addicted to the bali i switched for a bit to an indo strain and it was a lot more energetic and was not giving me the warm opioid feeling that the bali was giving me . Ive also tried Thai before and that was the most energizing strain ive tried , Ive been sober the last 3 days with no kratom but keep getting those annoying thoughts of using kratom in my head haha so im trying to stay strong and ignore the temptations!

 

[nancylynnsmith]

Hey,

Thanks for responding to my post. The reason I posted (a first in a forum) is that I started rationalizing about how taking Kratom was a fairly benign solution for depression and lack of motivation. Even though it's expensive, I just figure it's worth it. Great rationalizing, huh? I'm feeling pretty weak as far as resolve. I can stand the withdrawal stuff. It's the dullness I hate. Thanks for being supportive.

 

[andyn6990]

Heya pods, yeah most the physical is over , im just struggling with the mental now ,i seem to have little good moments but then feel awfully flat and bored i think ive drained a lot of my dopamine out , keep having the temptation to take some bali but keep fighting against it , ive been thinking about going to a low dose and tapering but everytime i try to taper i end up taking too much and getting high haha , something i have noticed actually is when i go a few days without the kratom the loose stools start again even if ive only taken a low dose a few days earliar, thats the only physicals im gettin apart from that its all just mental now. Andy!

 

[andyn6990]

Hi Nancy ,welcome to the thread everyone here is amazing and you will find lots of good info and stuff, im also goin through the depression aswell it sucks :-( ,Wot kind of kratom were you taking? I also started self medicating with the kratom due to my anxiety and depression issues ,Youve done amazing to be able stay off a whole month congrats

 

[nancylynnsmith]

Thanks Andy and pnm,

I remember when I quit smoking years ago, and before I did, I couldn't imagine life without a cigarette in my hand. It was painful to even visualize it. Now I can't imagine a cigarette in my hand. Don't think about it, don't miss it, don't crave it except for once every ten years or so. I'm hoping that I'll feel the same way about Kratom - just a distant memory. But right now, I REMEMBER how great it was for me. Like a custom made depression/anxiety/engergizer. But I've taken the plunge - cold turkey, and I'm getting over the sleepless nights, shaky legs, shivers, etc. and I REALLY want to feel good without it. I took all kinds: extracts, powder, enhanced. I'm relatively settled in my career, so I could afford it, even though I could have easily spent that much money on a great vacation with my husband. My only motivation to quit is that a good friend of mine, whose assessment of Kratom I trust, said that it wasn't really good for us to be taking it for this long, this often. I don't know what harm it does, but it is expensive, and unregulated - so downing something for years and years without any feedback on the effects is not too smart. For all I know, I could have a giant hole in my stomach from some strange ingredient in Kratom. Anyhoo, I'm really fighting the urge to order a giant batch from my guy. I'm telling myself that it's not really that bad, and if it enhances life that much, why not? I know that that is pure bullshit, so thanks for listening. I appreciate the feedback and support. NLS

 

[podsnomo]

I'm with you on the cognitive dissonance. I do that too, thinking, well it's pretty benign, and it's not as costly as my pod habit, and I feel better on it. But I know I want to be totally sober. I'm in AA and even attending a step-study group, starting to work the steps, and I feel like a fraud, because I'm using. Even though it is relatively benign, it's a substance, and I want happiness in sobriety, and not having to rely on a substance.

I'm bouncing around with the rationalizing, and I've got to get my head straight on this if I'm going to successfully taper.
If I can't taper, I may try CT.

Nancy, I know you're still struggling with the blahs (or worse) a month out. Are you exercising? Eating well? What are/aren't you doing to cobat it and what's your experience trying to deal with it?

I'm planning on a gym membership to shift my money to (LOTS less expensive though) and to shift my focus to. I've heard that 4-6 rigorous workouts a week is the equivalent of a strong antidepressant, only without the shitty side effects. I hope that's true. I know when I was in a workout routine a while back, while I was using and drinking (!), I felt a lot better.

Anyhow, I hope you continue to feel better and better nancy.

Peace,
pnm

Thanks Andy and pnm,

I remember when I quit smoking years ago, and before I did, I couldn't imagine life without a cigarette in my hand. It was painful to even visualize it. Now I can't imagine a cigarette in my hand. Don't think about it, don't miss it, don't crave it except for once every ten years or so. I'm hoping that I'll feel the same way about Kratom - just a distant memory. But right now, I REMEMBER how great it was for me. Like a custom made depression/anxiety/engergizer. But I've taken the plunge - cold turkey, and I'm getting over the sleepless nights, shaky legs, shivers, etc. and I REALLY want to feel good without it. I took all kinds: extracts, powder, enhanced. I'm relatively settled in my career, so I could afford it, even though I could have easily spent that much money on a great vacation with my husband. My only motivation to quit is that a good friend of mine, whose assessment of Kratom I trust, said that it wasn't really good for us to be taking it for this long, this often. I don't know what harm it does, but it is expensive, and unregulated - so downing something for years and years without any feedback on the effects is not too smart. For all I know, I could have a giant hole in my stomach from some strange ingredient in Kratom. Anyhoo, I'm really fighting the urge to order a giant batch from my guy. I'm telling myself that it's not really that bad, and if it enhances life that much, why not? I know that that is pure bullshit, so thanks for listening. I appreciate the feedback and support. NLS