Uh, what? Every drug in existence has a certain dosage you have to take to get any effect whatsoever, it's called a "threshold dose." Dmt has a threshold as well, and it's roughly 5-10mg vaporized. Ketamine is active at roughly the same dosage, which is still less than 1/6 of what you need to hole, intramuscularly. A K-hole is indeed roughly equivalent to a DMT breakthrough, though quite different in effect, being a dissociative. The similarity lies in how there is a distinct line between the regular effects, and the "breakthrough" effects. One second you're coming up, the next, you're just "there." It's much like a dream. In both K-holes and DMT breakthroughs I usually forget I'm on a drug and am 100% engaged in the experience until I begin to come down.
[Ketamine Subthread] The K-Hole
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Uh, what? Every drug in existence has a certain dosage you have to take to get any effect whatsoever, it's called a "threshold dose." Dmt has a threshold as well, and it's roughly 5-10mg vaporized. Ketamine is active at roughly the same dosage, which is still less than 1/6 of what you need to hole, intramuscularly. A K-hole is indeed roughly equivalent to a DMT breakthrough, though quite different in effect, being a dissociative. The similarity lies in how there is a distinct line between the regular effects, and the "breakthrough" effects. One second you're coming up, the next, you're just "there." It's much like a dream. In both K-holes and DMT breakthroughs I usually forget I'm on a drug and am 100% engaged in the experience until I begin to come down.
majorigpa
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The only way is to do it
I'll follow the route bump by bump.
I'm interested in the dissociatives world but it's totally new for me, so that's why I'm asking and collecting impressions by other people.
More comments are very welcome.
the first time i used ketamine it scared me quite a bit, but only because my expectations were all skewed. i only did a small line while seated, listening to some music in my headphones. for some reason i thought it would pull me "inwards", like a dmt trip, allowing me to focus more on the music, but i can only describe it as quite the opposite, dropping "outwards". the music became very distant and i felt an immediate loss of control. i felt an incredible urge to lie down, but in some attempt to "shake it off" i stood up and tried to get a glass of water. it was about 10 feet and the longest walk of my life. i returned to the table i was sitting at, put my head down and came to terms with the drug and its effects over a period of 20 minutes or so, feeling better by the time it was over.
having faced the beast, i decide to try the same dose plus a bit more in a better environment. slow, low music, lights off. bed at the ready. i snorted a fat bump in each nostril, let the drip hit, felt the "dropping out" and laid back for what would be a much more enjoyable experience. i relinquished all control, tried to literally think of nothing, and simply floated into space for 30 minutes or so. nothing life-changing or shocking. just very serene, sort of like being immediately plopped into the psychedelic "loop" without having to go through all of the other emotions to get there. just letting the universe have its way with me.
i've heard too many stories of people who need to rail 200 mg, 300 mg, half gram lines in order to get some crazy life altering shit where an alien priestess sucks you off while you shoplift in hell or some shit. i've never been there and don't really plan to. i like using k at the tail end of an acid trip, or to come down from a stimulant binge. i've even read a few MAPS articles that allude to ketamine as a possible treatment for acute depression, something i have used K for with great success. i'm still at a point where i can find my way into "the loop" with about 75 mgs. i don't use it with alcohol, opiates or benzos, and i prefer to be alone. it's not a social drug for me at all. quite the opposite. K is something i indulge in when i want to forget even myself for a bit
A K-hole is a massive dose of K, breaking through on DMT doesn't need a massive dose of DMT. Y'follow?
Solipsis
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^ What does the dose-response curve have anything to do with this? Getting a breakthrough is dose-dependent even if it is not equally reliable to produce with every compound.
The thing that is the same with a breakthrough of DMT as well as with K is that the experience is completely immersive, happening only on a mental plane of existence (or whatever you want to call it), without being influenced by external stimuli any longer, or at least appearing that way.
On the one hand it may be a gradual scale from not-immersed to immersed but it seems so that if the influence from external stimulation gets exceedingly small, what is left is more and more easily distorted beyond recognition, making it appear like a bigger and discreeter difference between breakthrough and not-breakthrough.
So the curve may be very steep at the end, that does not make it a truly discreet step.
About OOBE's: with ketamine alone you typically forget things about your identity stepwise first. Like forgetting where you are, then your name, then forgetting you are human, and all kinds of steps in between.
As such, the OOBE ultimately produced is often not with intact sense of self with ketamine... combined with heavy psychedelics this can be different because less K is needed to produce as much immersion.
I think something like LSD or another broad-spectrum psychedelic combined with meditation can also be a good approach, but the trick is to get an OOBE instead of an ego-death experience.
DMT is probably the best for keeping your sense of self more or less intact but still 'travelling' to otherwordly places.
The thing that is the same with a breakthrough of DMT as well as with K is that the experience is completely immersive, happening only on a mental plane of existence (or whatever you want to call it), without being influenced by external stimuli any longer, or at least appearing that way.
On the one hand it may be a gradual scale from not-immersed to immersed but it seems so that if the influence from external stimulation gets exceedingly small, what is left is more and more easily distorted beyond recognition, making it appear like a bigger and discreeter difference between breakthrough and not-breakthrough.
So the curve may be very steep at the end, that does not make it a truly discreet step.
About OOBE's: with ketamine alone you typically forget things about your identity stepwise first. Like forgetting where you are, then your name, then forgetting you are human, and all kinds of steps in between.
As such, the OOBE ultimately produced is often not with intact sense of self with ketamine... combined with heavy psychedelics this can be different because less K is needed to produce as much immersion.
I think something like LSD or another broad-spectrum psychedelic combined with meditation can also be a good approach, but the trick is to get an OOBE instead of an ego-death experience.
DMT is probably the best for keeping your sense of self more or less intact but still 'travelling' to otherwordly places.
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It's a terminology debate about whether a "breakthrough" dose on K is the same as a k-hole dose.
I don't think a "breakthrough" dose on DMT is the same as an incredibly heavy dose of DMT. I think they're two completely different experiences. Particularly oral doses.
Edit: One furthur point, the idea that there is a "breakthrough" dose on DMT only applies to smoking where if you don't cross that dose nothing happens. With oral DMT exactly the same as oral K, you get a linear response curve - there is no magic "breakthrough" dose, you simply get stronger and stronger effects the bigger the dose up to receptor saturation point.
I don't think a "breakthrough" dose on DMT is the same as an incredibly heavy dose of DMT. I think they're two completely different experiences. Particularly oral doses.
Edit: One furthur point, the idea that there is a "breakthrough" dose on DMT only applies to smoking where if you don't cross that dose nothing happens. With oral DMT exactly the same as oral K, you get a linear response curve - there is no magic "breakthrough" dose, you simply get stronger and stronger effects the bigger the dose up to receptor saturation point.
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steingalkrs
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If B12 is depleted, you should have some B6 aswell as B6 makes the digestion possible for B12 extraction. I always eat some b6 and b12 vitamins during all binges.
Uncle Robert
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I know I'm quoting an old post here but those words were just the ones I was looking for. When I'm slightly coming down off ket I sometimes have to wiggle my toes just to make sure I exist... if that makes sense.
better yet theres b complex. one of the most useful suplements imo
Obsidius
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be careful with prescription B complexes. i got a b3/6/12 prescribed and its extremely high dosed. over the counter supplements are between 10-20 ug b12 and this has 200ug b12 in one pill alone. i had to stop supplementing the B complex (used it every second day for lucid dreaming) because i had weird spots in my vision field and thought of visuals-aftereffects from tripping, while in fact its b12 affecting my visual nerve in deficiency and overdose. never had this issue before supplementing tho. also have no vit B deficiency per se. didnt trip for 3 weeks, had this everytime after taking the vit b pill around 3-5 hours later.
thatdreamer123
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I still don't know if I've holed...
Only done K three times now, and this last time I did the most, I feel like I didn't do enough in a short enough period of time to hole, I got ridiculously high, but no noticeable jump between being high and on a completely different level. Simply felt like a very high dose of DXM (all I can really compare ket to).
Never really got any visuals, I mean there were distortions but nothing so noticeable that it couldn't be ignored. A ton of audible hallucinations and I hardly moved.
Only done K three times now, and this last time I did the most, I feel like I didn't do enough in a short enough period of time to hole, I got ridiculously high, but no noticeable jump between being high and on a completely different level. Simply felt like a very high dose of DXM (all I can really compare ket to).
Never really got any visuals, I mean there were distortions but nothing so noticeable that it couldn't be ignored. A ton of audible hallucinations and I hardly moved.
Solipsis
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If you are not sure then it is more likely that you didn't, but the more important thing to say about this is that it should not matter if your experience got that label or not. It changes nothing about the experience. Attach your own meaning to it, and only use the same labels like 'K-hole' if you feel that it resonates with what you experienced.
I think it *can* help find better understanding when communicating these experiences, to find some common ground. But we can all have very unique experiences depending on which sensations and mental processes were dissociated and which less so.
Merging this with the K-hole subthread.
I think it *can* help find better understanding when communicating these experiences, to find some common ground. But we can all have very unique experiences depending on which sensations and mental processes were dissociated and which less so.
Merging this with the K-hole subthread.
thatdreamer123
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^It's just that I've only got a very limited amount of K, and I want to experience the K-hole, but everytime time I do it, I end up doing the small bump method and I end up being satisfied before getting there or being too tired to do more. Not that i don't want anymore, it's just I don't feel the need. Which I guess is totally okay, just the next day after all 3 times, I was like, ackkk i'm running out and haven't succeeded in the main reason I went through all the trouble to acquire this to begin with.
I don't think there's any debate here. In fact, I'm not sure I understand your point at all (if you even have one). I've been saying that a k-hole is the same as a k "breakthrough" all along, not sure how you've managed to miss that. Yes, some people use the term k-hole loosely and to mean other things than the breakthrough, get over it. People talk about DMT breakthroughs just as loosely, it is up to you as an individual to communicate as well as possible in these ambiguous situations. In any event, this ketamine "breakthrough" is almost certainly the route of the term "k-hole," regardless of how anyone uses the word.
when you hole, youll know it. theres no question about it. the first time i holed was because i ignorantly did a bunch of lines. i didnt expect to get that fucked up but it was only my 2nd time doing k. and fwiw, i cant hole anymore really. last time i did was due to being on acid. k tolerance is a bitch
It's also much easier to hole when you do it intramuscularly, which is why I think a lot of people have difficulty, only doing it nasally. I don't shoot anything anymore myself so I don't blame these people, but yeah. If you want to k-hole by snorting it, you really have to just man up and do a nice 6-inch line all at once, or in a short span of time.
doomsdayguy
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I had my first almost-k-hole experience two nights ago. This is a really interesting drug.
I started first with K taking small, 10 or 20mg lines nasally and redosing as fit. I hadn't gone this high before.
So I measured out 40mg, snorted in both nostrils, and waited for effects. This hit me about twice as hard as what I was used to, so about 20 minutes later I snorted another 20mg. The euphoria of snorting after some has kicked in tickles and is awesome. When this hit me, I'd say I was on the edge of a hole.
I listened to Pantyraid for the first line and switched to Thomas Giles after the second kicked in. When I snorted the second line, high frequencies were completely cut out, although the low range seemed to all be there.
Closing my eyes I found it somewhat easy to dissociate out of my body. I was getting light CEVs of all sorts of things as well. If I got into a trance state and opened my eyes, almost all of my body felt numb.
Needless to say, I want to do more experimentation with this. Next time I will start with 60mg and snort 20 more once I feel comfortable.
I started first with K taking small, 10 or 20mg lines nasally and redosing as fit. I hadn't gone this high before.
So I measured out 40mg, snorted in both nostrils, and waited for effects. This hit me about twice as hard as what I was used to, so about 20 minutes later I snorted another 20mg. The euphoria of snorting after some has kicked in tickles and is awesome. When this hit me, I'd say I was on the edge of a hole.
I listened to Pantyraid for the first line and switched to Thomas Giles after the second kicked in. When I snorted the second line, high frequencies were completely cut out, although the low range seemed to all be there.
Closing my eyes I found it somewhat easy to dissociate out of my body. I was getting light CEVs of all sorts of things as well. If I got into a trance state and opened my eyes, almost all of my body felt numb.
Needless to say, I want to do more experimentation with this. Next time I will start with 60mg and snort 20 more once I feel comfortable.
GodSpeedK
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A K hole is when you don't know who and where you are. You usually meet some God or reality is given this totally unique perspective. There's levels below that when things can still very weird and feel like a David Lynch film. Which I'm sure some of those who are newer to the substance mistake for a hole.
I totally recommend adding marijuana to the mix. Makes K so much better. I can't stress that enough.
I totally recommend adding marijuana to the mix. Makes K so much better. I can't stress that enough.
haha a david lynch film is a good explanation of that dose. that was my first experience.. felt like i was watching myself in a movie.
weirdfish
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i'm a big fan of that place just before the k-hole
you're still fully conscious and able to think lucidly, it lets you experience absolute relaxation/bliss and enjoy the experience for exactly what is. even better with a couple joints. with extreme k hole doses i pretty much forget everything a couple hours later...there's a place for that too though, heh
you're still fully conscious and able to think lucidly, it lets you experience absolute relaxation/bliss and enjoy the experience for exactly what is. even better with a couple joints. with extreme k hole doses i pretty much forget everything a couple hours later...there's a place for that too though, heh