Keep Sinning

[swilow]

I never said I felt guilty about drugs, but the actions around the drugs.

Well, you didn't really say that anywhere that I can see, but I digress ... What sort of actions do you mean? Do you mean stealing or hurting others (intentionally/not) to obtain drugs?

My point was just to say that I don't think trying to not use drugs for anything outside your self is pointless. I'm convinced of that through my own experiences where I had people begging me to quit, my mother crying at me, and I continued. I just cannot see how you can ever convince yourself to do this for the ambiguity of god, because you will have to interpret the outcomes and hope that you have pleased Him/It, whereas if you do this for yourself, you will LIVE the positive results.

 

[treezy z]

Well, you didn't really say that anywhere that I can see, but I digress ... What sort of actions do you mean? Do you mean stealing or hurting others (intentionally/not) to obtain drugs?

Shit of that nature, i'm not gonna get specific.

 

[kaya_9]

I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in. I am lost...I am hopeless.
It isn't my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.

2) I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it. I fall in again.
I can't believe I'm in the same place. But it isn't my fault.
It still takes a long time to get out.

3) I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there. I still fall in...it's a habit
My eyes are open; I know where I am; it is my fault.
I get out immediately.

4) I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk
I walk around it.

5) I walk down another street.-P. Nelson



If you really feel bad about it...and makes you feel bad, don't do it.

If you like to catch a buzz, smoke a joint once and a while, get the munchies, and go to sleep.

I don't think even God would mind that.

 

[swilow]

^Thanks for sharing that Good symbolism there...

Shit of that nature, i'm not gonna get specific.

That's cool You don't need to, I know what I've done and I don't think I'm alone in having done these things.

2 choices, don't do it again; or do. There are multiple ways to make those choices though. I would make the best choice for you only.

 

[infectedmushroom]

Taking drugs does not inherently suggest sin or a poor moral foundation.

It just means you're human.

Don't be so hard on yourself; god wouldn't have created intoxicating substances at all if he didn't intend for animals to one day stumble across them and think "wow, this is great! Thanks god! I feel closer to you now!"

Or maybe, "thanks for this substance which is temporarily relieving the stress of this sometimes overwhelming and painful life!"

 

[Ninae]

Taking drugs does not inherently suggest sin or a poor moral foundation.

LOL. No, but it tends to indirectly lead to sin or a poor moral foundation. As a general rule it tends to go together (even if it doesn't have to).

 

[swilow]

LOL. No, but it tends to indirectly lead to sin or a poor moral foundation. As a general rule it tends to go together (even if it doesn't have to).

No way. That's a huge, DARE-like assumption that has absolutely no evidence supporting it. Drug use has NOTHING to do with right/wrong, good/bad. Its a neutral activity and by no means leads to immorality. It can, but so can many, many things. Ingesting drugs is actually a very natural activity IMO.

Its abuse that we need to be wary of.

edit: I find this idea of sin to be incredibly distasteful. Where does it come from? Who/what has determined what a sin is and isn't? If it is "god", how was this idea communicated to humans and why oh why should we believe the humans who tell us that god said we were all fucked?

 

[infectedmushroom]

No substance or action is inherently sinful, when considered objectively.

We are JUST HUMANS, and as such, are liable to all sorts of immoral and seemingly incomprehensible behaviors.

If God did exist, it would be undeniably clear which and what behaviors were wrong/immoral/sinful.

As I believe God is a creation of the extension of the human ego, it follows that it is up to US to determine right and wrong, immoral and immoral.

 

[Ninae]

If God did exist, it would be undeniably clear which and what behaviors were wrong/immoral/sinful.

How can you be sure you would hear him (if you don't now)?

I find it's mostly undeniably clear. If it causes harm to others, yourself, or the society you're a part of for the most part. It's not really that open to interpretation.

 

[Ninae]

.Drug use has NOTHING to do with right/wrong, good/bad. Its a neutral activity and by no means leads to immorality.

I didn't mean it like that. I was talking about how abuse/addiction nearly always ends up doing harm to both the user and the world around him. There are so few exceptions it's almost automatic and for most if they start to use it's hard not to start to abuse (in practice).

edit: I find this idea of sin to be incredibly distasteful.

It's just one word for what isn't in our greatest good and cause negative consequences when carried out in human life. I don't use it, it's a dead word, but everyone knows what it means. Used in an extended way it's not really connected to religion, or any religion, it can be translated to any belief-system with different words.

Who/what has determined what a sin is and isn't?

No one, you know it in your heart.

]If it is "god", how was this idea communicated to humans and why oh why should we believe the humans who tell us that god said we were all fucked?

He doesn't.

We've been given the freedom to do what we want but we have to live with the consequences of it. But "he" doesn't like to see us hurt each other and ourselves in the process. He would like something better for us.

God doesn't impose himself on you. He wants you to come to the choice of doing something out of your own will or he knows it's not likely to last. So it's like he just waits for that time to come.

 

[swilow]

I didn't mean it like that. I was talking about how abuse/addiction nearly always ends up doing harm to both the user and the world around him. There are so few exceptions it's almost automatic and for most if they start to use it's hard not to start to abuse (in practice).

Yeah, I can agree with that. I interpreted you as saying that drugs use, not abuse, leads to "sin/poor moral foundation" because thats how you wrote it. I agree with your clarification, that addiction rarely leads anywhere but down.

It's just one word for what isn't in our greatest good and cause negative consequences when carried out in human life. I don't use it, it's a dead word, but everyone knows what it means. Used in an extended way it's not really connected to religion, or any religion, it can be translated to any belief-system with different words.

But the meaning of sin is pretty much always described as a wrong committed against a religious edict, so its the wrong word to use to describe a personal flaw or weakness or simple propensity.

"any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle"- Dictionairy definition

I don't see using drugs as transgressive of anything but draconian and destructive white-male law. I see theft and violence as transgressions of such law.

He doesn't

He mightn't but so many of his followers do. But my point was, how can we trust any human who claims to be speaking for god? This god has never spoken directly, only through the human medium, and I think humans are not always trustworthy when they tell others how to live their lives.

God doesn't impose himself on you. He wants you to come to the choice of doing something out of your own will or he knows it's not likely to last. So it's like he just waits for that time to come.

But he does if he is telling me I am sinning when I do things that harm no-one but myself. And that has been my point, that drug use can be a victimless crime for which no expenditure of guilt is needed. Of course, if it leads to actions like stealing or hurting people, those actions are to be regretted and learned from, but the drug use isn't responsible; YOU are. Thats a hard fucking lesson really...

 

[infectedmushroom]

How can you be sure you would hear him (if you don't now)?

I find it's mostly undeniably clear. If it causes harm to others, yourself, or the society you're a part of for the most part. It's not really that open to interpretation.

I don't believe in God being an external force so I don't believe it possible to "hear him." If, however, as religious-types would have you believe, the Bible is the word of god, then obviously we'd be able to read the universal truth of right and wrong in his holy text. Which, in my opinion, was written by man, not god, so again, I don't "hear him" now nor do I ever expect to.

I think you need to come to the acceptance that as humans it's impossible not to harm, even with the utmost care, at least indirectly, other creatures. This is just reality.

Take a look at your shoes. Are they made of leather? Do you think perhaps they were made in a sweatshop under inhumane conditions? Did the ships/trucks it took to get them to you not damage the environment along the way?

There are endless scenarios one might point to. Human beings cause themselves and others harm as a result of their nature. If you wish to view what is simply natural as "sin," I feel sorry for you - why live under such a burden? Why would god make us "sick" in our very nature just to order and command us through a life as difficult as this in perpetual fear we mightn't live up to his standards and get sent to hell for just being human?

 

[kaya_9]

You don't 'hear' it...It just comes when you have a quiet mind. The word 'God' cheapens It.

Thus the adage/saying/proverb...'He who has ears let him Hear' Still quiet voice...and you don't have to follow any religion at all..It's a part of us.

 

[infectedmushroom]

When I have a quiet mind I don't "hear" anything, I gain a sense of peace and transcendence of self which cannot be surpassed by any drug. I don't reject all numinous experience; simply trying to argue against the OP's premise which is that the universe or god has some moral qualm about drug use and addiction.

I agree, the word God certainly cheapens the peaceful, transcendent experience a great deal.

 

[Ninae]

I don't believe in God being an external force so I don't believe it possible to "hear him." If, however, as religious-types would have you believe, the Bible is the word of god, then obviously we'd be able to read the universal truth of right and wrong in his holy text. Which, in my opinion, was written by man, not god, so again, I don't "hear him" now nor do I ever expect to.

Al the same people do hear him, and more than that.

The main religions give you no acuarrate description of God's nature or how we can connect with this reality. So why are you so hung up on it? Why not find a belief-system that suits you more to approach God with? Or are you one of those who don't want to see the forest for the trees?

The best way to describe it is probably having some powerful spirtual experience when you feel lifted up and at one with something great, even if you're not aware what it is.

 

[dopemaster]

Well you don't have to be a shitty person just because you use drugs.

I remember when it was clear to me that I was most definitely a drug addict and I was not going to stop, I decided that I was not going to let my problem be someone elses.

So you can just not to do asshole stuff like steal, cheat, or fuck people over.

 

[Ninae]

There are endless scenarios one might point to. Human beings cause themselves and others harm as a result of their nature. If you wish to view what is simply natural as "sin," I feel sorry for you - why live under such a burden? Why would god make us "sick" in our very nature just to order and command us through a life as difficult as this in perpetual fear we mightn't live up to his standards and get sent to hell for just being human?

This is crazy thinking by the way. No wonder people hate God when that's how they've been lead to think.

 

[Ninae]

But my point was, how can we trust any human who claims to be speaking for god? This god has never spoken directly, only through the human medium, and I think humans are not always trustworthy when they tell others how to live their lives.

God speaks to you directly. But he speaks within you. It's the still small voice inside (maybe you can hear it on psychedelics).

Or do you expect him to shout out at us through a megaphone? Remember he doesn't reside in the physical dimension. But there are very few who really speak for God. I can put my trust only in a few (noteably Peter Deunov and Omraam Mikhael Aivanhov) but you learn to recognise God's voice over time.

More importantly, God speaks to you all the time, he speaks to everyone, every animal, and the smallest blade of grass. He speaks to us, too, but we're in such a state we can't hear him. Everyone can become a medium or channel for God but it takes a certain purity. I can channel once in a while, too, I channel my guardian angels. So I don't rule out the possibility someone else can.

But he does if he is telling me I am sinning when I do things that harm no-one but myself.

What makes you think doing harm to yourself would be any less of a problem? A sin against yourself is just as much of a sin. And continuing to do harm to yourself like this over time tends to lead to harm to others too.

But don't feel mad at God because you feel he wants to limit you in your drug-use or anything. He might prefer it, both for the sake of yourself and others, but you have the freedom to experiment and learn how you like.

The probem with the typical religious outlook that takes a hard line with drugs is that they don't consider the nature of this life as a free-will experiment where everyone are free to do what they want as a way to learn (which is not how God sees it). Keeping yourself pure throughout a human life is certainly admirable, and someone like this will have an easier life, but it's not for everyone.

And that has been my point, that drug use can be a victimless crime for which no expenditure of guilt is needed.

Maybe...maybe. There are certainly many victims on the supply chain (before the drugs come to you). It can be used in a way that does no harm but few will have the self-dicipline to keep it like that.

 

[kaya_9]

When I have a quiet mind I don't "hear" anything,

If you're open it doesn't disturb it at all-quite the contrary- it is 'I Am'. You sense Awareness. There are other things to develop, imo.

I don't reject all numinous experience; simply trying to argue against the OP's premise which is that the universe or god has some moral qualm about drug use and addiction.

Ok-this is directed at OP then..^^

I disagree with the idea that 'It'/All/Conscious Awareness...whatever label...has moral issues about drugs, etc.

This is a free will existence. I think it's more that everyone is on a path to find their 'Higher Self'..no pun intended..lol. People may suffer for whatever reason, and negative consequences come just like any other decision in the world may from our choices. It all leads back to attaining your potential....aka self-actualization..

You can be anywhere on this path in that progression..Just a journey in life. Just apart of refining the THIS Universe into perfection, imo. of course. :D

 

[treezy z]

Everyone seems to think i feel guilty about drugs. No, I'm blazin dat medicine right now.

I feel guilty about acting like a scumbag on meth, yet continuing to use it.