Jobs granted to visible minorities. (Affirmative Action)

[Txteacher]

interesting. it seems to me that what you're writing about, and what i was addressing, differ somewhat.
i have no problem with immigrants coming to the U.S. (just about everyone here is a product of immigrants, at one point or another in our country's history), as i'm sure you don't there in canada. i agree that they should speak the language, fluently. no disagreement there.
however...what about people who are ALREADY HERE, such as african-americans, and who are being born in a cycle of poverty, etc? i'm not saying, by the way, that all or even most blacks are living below the poverty line. i don't have the stats handy, sorry. i just know that, as an educator at an urban school, i see a REAL difference and disadvantage where minority kids are concerned. i see, for example, a lack of respect for achievement. i see, for example, a lack of value for a high school (let alone college) diploma. i also see, for example, a total and complete lack of fathers in many cases. often, my students live with their grandmothers or aunts, etc.
now...you might ask, "how will affirmative action help these kids?" by giving them a chance, because they were born into a situation that didn't give them as good a chance.
you might also say, "but hey, there's plenty of poor WHITE kids out there with shitty families." yep, there are. but they're still white. they still have the advantage of being white. it exists, whether or not many people on this board are willing to admit it! i know some of us are.
affirmative action isn't perfect. but it is a TOOL with which to address a PROBLEM.
[ 12 July 2002: Message edited by: Txteacher ]

 

[ebola?]

so what about affirmative action based on poverty guys?
I mean, the link between this and one's life-chances is a bit more clear-cut than skin-color.
ebola
np: botch

 

[*chaoscat*]

There has to be something to help kids born into poverty to achieve whatever they want, but I don't know if affirmative action would do that. Giving them the education to obtain the same skills as a richer child, so they get a job because they have the abilities seems fairer.
I think that many employers do secretly (or not so secretly) look down on some groups of people, thus these people will not get jobs when they are equally qualified. I think this is more of a reason for affirmative action than other reasons they are disadvantaged. Most people will make judgements about you (especially in a job interview) primarily on the way you look. eg. a man may not want to give a female a job that involved manual labour because she is female and he believes all females are weak, regardless of whether she can actually do the job or not.
Even if the law says you aren't allowed to discriminate, many bosses do. Can anyone give options other than affirmative action to combat this?

 

[Cyc]

a man may not want to give a female a job that involved manual labour because she is female and he believes all females are weak, regardless of whether she can actually do the job or not.
But also remember that the competent female in this scenario would be the exception to the rule, as the template female body structures isn't built for intense manual labour.
On the same note...
Perhaps an employer, upon having negative experiences with a certain ethnic group, would opt to stay away from hiring others of this same ethnicity.
Would this make him a savvy operator who has learned from experience or a racist bigot who's obligated to give everyone a chance despite his past headaches?

 

[*chaoscat*]

^ He would be a racist bigot! Why should others of that same race lose out on a job through no fault of their own? (which is the same question white people may ask if they don't get a job due to affirmative action).

 

[ebola?]

>>But also remember that the competent female in this scenario would be the exception to the rule, as the
template female body structures isn't built for intense manual labour.>>
eh. The difference is less than you might think. The bell-curves for the upper-body strengths of the two sexes have a tremendous amount of overlap, so differences between the sexes are only of note for individuals who are statistical outliers, who have extreme strength or an extreme lack of strength.
ebola
np: download

 

[Belisarius]

Kyk
Whenever someone tells me that their personal experience with a minority has given them a certain impression of the group that is usually right, my warning flags always go up.
As others wrote, from the fact that the employer relies on very limited experience of the ethnic group, to relegate them to a single category is a fallacy. But what if that hypothetical employer used different standards to judge the behavior of said people? He could do it without even being aware of it, if he had a bias against the group that he picked up on the outside. Any preconceptions could have a major impact on how he viewed those people, before they even got the job. This isn't a judgment against the employer, per se, because I think we're all guilty of it to some degree.
A stereotype I've heard before is that blacks are bad tippers. If a waiter or waitress serves a table of blacks with that notion in mind, he or she will probably be automatically more critical of the tips the customers do give, whether they're adequate or not. "What--$5.15?! They could have given me 50 cents more..."
[ 17 July 2002: Message edited by: Belisarius ]

 

[Cyc]

Belisarius, I agree that until we can generate some facts on the issue, there is no point in speculating that there is any difference between races on the issues of job performance and tipping.
I posed the question in genuine curiosity. I wanted to know what people thought.
Perhaps to rephrase a little -- What if we could statistically prove that a minority race was, for example, worse tippers by having each server nationwide (purely hypothetical) tally the percentage of tips from all races and compare the %'s to that of the check.
Then would our stereotypes be justified?
Then could we say that 'generally, ____'s are bad tippers'?
Controversially, I think that given sufficent data, any stereotype is justified based on truth.
However, I don't think that exploiting disparities is very PC either.

 

[*chaoscat*]

Then could we say that 'generally, ____'s are bad tippers'?
You could say that, but how does that help you? You will probably subconsciously give the person worse service, therefore giving them reason to give you a lower tip, when that particular black person may have been initially going to tip you the most. Your generalisation causes you to lose out (and also find support for your generalisation!).
Maybe black people ARE given worse service more often, and so have reason to tip less? Therefore it isn't because they are black, but because the people who serve them discriminate against them? So then maybe black people should generalise and say that you will not give them as good service as you would a white person? Do you think it is fair for them to make that judgement of you?
Any generelisations you make will consciously and subconsciously affect your behaviour. If it is a negative generalisation, this will have negative consequences regardless of what the person is really like. Treat every person as if they could be perfect, until they give you reason to believe otherwise. You cannot judge someones character or abilities from their physical appearance.
Older white bosses would have lived through the horrible segregation and racism of the 50's and 60's. Even though the laws have changed, those racist beliefs are still strongly held by many older people (whether they admit it or not). For a lot of them it probably doesn't feel like a decision, it's just the way the world IS. It might be hard for younger people to fully understand how these type of long held beliefs would govern a bosses decisions. I wonder if older people are more in support of affirmative action as they realise its necessity?
My grandfather was in a japanese prison camp, until he died he could not bring himself to like japanese people. He would not have given a job to a japanese person. He couldn't help it, but is it fair? No. Should something be done for the people who suffer the consequences of others warped attitudes? Yes!

Originally posted by ebola!:
>>But also remember that the competent female in this scenario would be the exception to the rule, as the template female body structures isn't built for intense manual labour.>>
eh. The difference is less than you might think.
And the perceived difference varies depending on the bosses past experiences, which may or may not correspond with reality! Women could really only be homemakers, teachers or nurses in the 50's. So there WILL be older people out there who still believe this is all they should do!
[ 17 July 2002: Message edited by: *chaoscat* ]

 

[Quicksilverchameleon7]

Originally posted by Kyk:
^^
I don't know. How many convenience store owners hire white suburban kids to work the counter?
Thats because most overprivileged white suburban kids either A: don't need the money because of their affluent financial background, and thus aren't pursuing minimum wage employment.
Or B they feel that it is tedious mind numbing menial labor and definitely beneath them,
so they adamantly refuse to work at convenience stores because they feel it's embarassing, and reflects upon their socioeconomic status detrimentally. Making them look poor to others. And they are too excessively self conscious about others opinions of them. Because they are apparently partially neurotic. But most whote people are, I'll admit I am.
Instead many white suburbanites go straight to college, or attend a university right upon graduating highschool. Some have never done menial labor, and never will. Also Kyk your comments about the stuttering kid getting all As in class was kind of pernicious you know.
I mean obviously the person probably has a learning disability or some kind of intellectual deficiency that comes in tow with that, and their teachers were just trying to get them to build up their confidence level, and make them feel better about themselves so they could build a sound infrastructural foundation for developing higher self esteem upon. Also so they can feel positive and be motivated to try harder.
A person like that will face insurmountable opposition in every area of their life forever indefinitely do you understand. Some end up becoming social parriahs, because they are so alienated from society because of the unfair discrimination they will have to abide. Especially when it comes to job opportunities,and relationships they will probably have trouble facing the discrimination hurled at them. And educationally as well when for instance they have to deal with immature classmates who will probably prey upon them as a targeted scapegoat for continuous harassment.
Sure you can say that they should only be able to learn to utilize the tools they have to achieve the most they can for themselves.
But their capacity for personal achievement scholastically may be significantly lower than the average median range maybe. It's not completely fair to them, and it's not entirely fair to us to shower them with extra unmerited and unearned rewards academically , but what are we supposed to do with them?
I think just appropriating them a good tutor, and assisting them as much as possible is all you can hope for, and their families should offer as much unconditional love, and much needed emotional support as possible. I certainly don't think dumping them off, and abandoning them in some shitty substandard alternative school is the solution either.
The next question you may ask is:
How will they remain competitive? Or do you think darwinism applies here? Do you think an unfortunate person afflicted with a condition like that shouldn't be allowed to remain competitive, and they should just get used to obtaining lower grades? A lower GPA, and eventually acquiring a lower paying job? How would you feel if you had to be in that persons uncomfortable position?
Try forgetting who you are and step outside the persona you possess in this life, and try displacing yourself, and then imagine what these other people are coping with on a daily basis.
Be glad you are physically normal, and have a clean bill of health. Try forcing yourself to look at it from both sides of the issue.
Also affirmative action is necessary because of the years of oppression minorities suffered at the hands of the dominating, and enslaving
white race. I'm half white, and half hispanic myself and I'll admit this.(Although I look completely like a caucasion white anglo saxon) It's more like they are trying to recoup monetary damages their ancestors endured in the past, only they are doing it in an indirect fashion.
It's also because of the whole propogated
politically correct agenda of bullshit. Which is ineffective anyway in discontinuing racial discrimination. It serves as no real deterrent
since most white supremecist racist bigots, and unshakeable overzealous religious fanatic homophobes, and militant proponents of antisemetic beliefs have many thriving
active underground hate oriented organizations established across the US.
So maybe african americans and other minorities are benefiting from affrimative action. I'd say after what their predecessors tolerated they have a right to it. Alos considering how many hate groups are still extant out there I'd think they would want to have as many well established professionals from their races working in all the various fields of interest just to definitively
ensure that oppression of their race doesn't occur again.
And like someon else mentioned here people get discriminated against by employers all the time, better looking people for example get hired more because they probably do better with customer relations. Obese individuals make a lower salary on avaerage according to surveys in relative comparison to their thin ectomorphic counterparts who may even eat more than them, and who just have better physical genetics, and luckily didn't inherit a genetic predisposition to obesity or hypothyroidism. Nothing in life is completely fair. Like someone on the love sex, and relationships forum said alls fair in love and war, well same thing goes for competition in the career marketplace apparently.
Of couyrse the man or women thats the most intellectually competent doesn't always end up being the chosen job applicant even if they are the most qualified as far as job skills are concerned. Lifes unfair...thats how it goes....

 

[ebola?]

>> Lifes
unfair...thats how it goes.... >>
this is not how just social systems are created.
ebola
np: skinny puppy

 

[Quicksilverchameleon7]

Well also I'm assuming your unsupportive to an approach like this that offers them indirect reparations for thwir predecessors suffering--because you feel that you are currently or have been in the past turned down for various job opportunities because of this? Interestingly enough alot of radical neo nazi white supremacist groups vehemently rant on about affirmative action. Hmmmmmmm.
Well I don't know what to say other than at least your not some migrant worker in communist china working for the american currency equivalent of a measly 1-3 dollars a day, and living in substandard impecunious maybe even unsanitary conditions that could be potentially dangerous to their health. And considering they have lousy medical care in those countries(not that everyone has good medical care here either but...) Many live in impoverished urban ghettos.
Their residences more accurately resemble dilapidated shacks instead of houses.
Many don't even possess normal major appliances except for a refrigerator, I was wathcing a documentary on this and many don't even own such convenient modern appliances as full sized stoves. Instead they cook with a small portable grill. And oftentimes they have to incommodiously cram several individuals into one not so spacious room. Even the poor here in america and in your country are enjoying overall substantially better living conditions than the average migrant chinese worker who has left their original birthplaces in rural villages. There are restricting undemocratic laws(duh its communism-- thats actually a modified form of socialism)
In china there are laws mandated stating their not supposed to leave their villages, but because of the inescapable hopeless destitution present in their villages, and the niggling dwindling hope they nurture for a better life they decide to travel to the cities in pursuit of better employment opportunities. But because of these unjust laws when they do arrive in the major cities to pursue a more prosperous life they are met with extreme opposition by employers trying to exploitatively take advantage of their illegal presence there. Many migrant workers end up in humongous cities such as Hong Kong that reflects the affluent lifestyle of capitalists, and western world philosophy.
But for these migrant workers the personal attainment of such financial independence, and opulent splendor is a moot impossible exercise in futility. When they arrive there they are certainly lucky if they are fortunate enough to find employment at all. However the most relevant point to be noted is that they are not payed as much, because their citizenship differs from those born in the major cities. So in effect employers can easily refuse to pay them as much as people born in the major cities and get away with it.
This makes many underpaid migrant youth workers become desperate to generate a higher income than 1-3 dollars a day, and they despairingly resort to health jeopardizing prostitution. Which I'm sure exponentially increases the likelihood of the transmission of HIV/AIDS. And in time it will gradually effect the statistics recorded, and compiled by the shitty underhanded World Health Organization who has been implicated by many conspiracy theorists to be involved in the intitial spread of HIV in Africa in the late seventies when they offered free HIV contaminated smallpox vaccinations in south africa in catholic funded missions, and hospitals.
In fact this is a bit off topic, but it almost makes you wonder if they are retaining these unfair government policies in order to ensure that the underpaid migrant youth workers decide out of sheer financial desperation to turn to a disease infested life of sexual solicitation on purpose to make more people contract HIV.
Inadvertently this would accomplish maliciously killing many more people in a perfidious manner , And anyway everyone knows about Chinas family planning polices, and enforced tubiligation procedures, and strict one child per couple policy. So who is to say the reason they aren't abolishing this law regarding migrant workers citizenship, and employment rights isn't to force the poor migrant workers into prostitution to inadvertently reduce the entire population?
So anyway Kyk after telling you all of this, all I can say is be happy you don't live in communist/socialist China.

 

[ebola?]

>>There are restricting undemocratic laws(duh its
communism-- thats actually a modified form of socialism)>>
As a communist, I resent this. China or the USSR are not good examples of communism in action. Their social systems have little to do with any type of socialism, let alone communism.
ebola
np: DJ Shadow

 

[Quicksilverchameleon7]

Originally posted by ebola!:
>>There are restricting undemocratic laws(duh its
communism-- thats actually a modified form of socialism)>>
As a communist, I resent this. China or the USSR are not good examples of communism in action. Their social systems have little to do with any type of socialism, let alone communism.
ebola
np: DJ Shadow
Well ok but I guess microsoft encarta is full of shit then I guess. I mean they could be they are a multinational corporation...that is more or less ruthlessly maintaining a monopoly on the software operating sustems market. Well anyway according to microsoft encarta online the kind of communism prevalent across the world nowadays is supposedly actually nothing more than a modified version of socialism--not the kind Karl Mark, and Freidrich Engels first originally envisioned when they first criticized capitalism. Look it up in the political science section on Encarta online.

 

[ebola?]

socialism: economic system where things are owned in common rather than privately.
communism: socialism taken to the logical extreme, where there is no property. Follows the maxim, "from each, according to his ability, to each, according to one's need." Communism is necessarily anarchist. Marx thinks that socialism will necessarily lead to communism, the state withering away when unneeded. The anarchists disagree, citing Russia, et. al., as counterexamples.
Why the confusion:
1. Brutal dictators such as Stalin called their policies "communist". I would call these regimes "State-capitalist," in the extent that elites of the state extract the fruits of the labor of the proletarians.
2. The American government and capitalists have tarnished the name of communism in an attempt to supress it.
ebola
np: botch

 

[Quicksilverchameleon7]

Originally posted by ebola!:
socialism: economic system where things are owned in common rather than privately.
communism: socialism taken to the logical extreme, where there is no property. Follows the maxim, "from each, according to his ability, to each, according to one's need." Communism is necessarily anarchist. Marx thinks that socialism will necessarily lead to communism, the state withering away when unneeded. The anarchists disagree, citing Russia, et. al., as counterexamples.
Why the confusion:
1. Brutal dictators such as Stalin called their policies "communist". I would call these regimes "State-capitalist," in the extent that elites of the state extract the fruits of the labor of the proletarians.
2. The American government and capitalists have tarnished the name of communism in an attempt to supress it.
ebola
np: botch
Look damnit I was agreeing with you that Stalins, and Lenin's, and hitlers modified version of communism isn't real original vision of communism that Karl Marx envisioned. And I know that America is giving real communism a bad reputation.
Because they know that capitalism in our country is veering more towards imperialism in its form of economy, and government, and as far as social stratification is becoming more pronounced in the sense that a small affluently wealthy portion of the population in the upper stratospheres of society tries to implement control(the mutlinational corporation owners, and big bankers)over the people in the common populace econmonically. The way America constantly says derogatory staements about the form of modified socialism (fake communism across the world) is because it's a scheming presdigitation meant to intentionally confuse the American public as a diversionary distraction. They hype up the negative aspects of modified socialism--the kind of pseudo cummunism prevalent in the world today, and say that it's the real communism when it technically really isn't. They are just taking advantage of the oblivious ignorance of the indolently lazy American population that doesn't voraciously read extensively on the subject of political science. Lots of Americans don't like reading since this is a society based on sensation driven impulses. Like the sensual satisfaction of sex, epicurean delights(food)or sensory stimulating entertainment. Movies, videogames, whatever.

 

[dr seuss]

Kyk - i am a white australian male who was hired, along with three others, to work in a cornershop owned by a northern indian in england.
affirmitive action is perhaps most common in the republic of South Africa. since apartheid, positions have been given to people not irregardless of personal merit, but without full consideration.
it's a hated system; hated by the white people who are qualified and eager but unable to find work; and hated by the black people, some of whom wonder whether they actually earned the job. the suicide levels amongst young black men in relatively higher positions of influence has soared as people unaccustomed to management stresses etc. are thrust into new roles. all in all, it seems a chaotic and damaging exercise.
but people are agreed - something has to be done to level the playing fields; not for the future generations that will benefit from increased education and (hopefully) a modicum of equality from their peers, but for the now generation - many of whom are embittered, disillusioned, and cynical.
through my rose tinted raybans, i hope affirmative action will cease as soon as it is clear it is no longer needed, and that any judgements made should be made on merit alone; what, i wonder, will happen to the people without merit?
interestingly enough an affirmative action of sorts does take place in london - being an australian, i was pleased to discover that many companies are more likely to hire australian, south african or new zealander than a british person; the work ethic of those from the southern hemisphere, plus their (usually) ebullient nature, make them an asset to many companies.
it is indeed ironic that the skilled people from south africa, where affirmative action has been one of the factors that contributed to a truly fucked up economy, are escaping to london to find themselves in demand once more.

 

[ice-9]

quicksilverchameleon7 said:

Well also I'm assuming your unsupportive to an approach like this that offers them indirect reparations for thwir predecessors suffering--because you feel that you are currently or have been in the past turned down for various job opportunities because of this? Interestingly enough alot of radical neo nazi white supremacist groups vehemently rant on about affirmative action. Hmmmmmmm.
i think this was a rather presumptious statement to make and certainly uncalled for. I am an asian male and against affirmative action. I'd like to think that i was hired for a job based on my qualifications, not the color of my hair or the tone of my skin.
and hey, i haven't waved a neo-nazi flag in years.
Affirmative action is pretty much a chicken or the egg problem. Should there be gov't intervention to try and level the playing field from discrimination (both conscious and subconscious?) How can there ultimately be a level playing field however, when affirmative action discriminates?
As for the rest of your post, it's taking things a little bit off track from the topic don't you think? "be happy you don't live in china"? i fail to see the relevance.

 

[FunkyAlfonzo]

I'm afraid I haven't read all of the replies to this post yet (I'm at work and don't have time), but I thought I'd throw in this topical example from Radio London Live this morning.
A surgeon has been classed as a racist because he refused to operate on the grounds that his nurses weren't up to the job because they couldn't speak English well enough to understand his instructions.
An example of affirmative action going dangerously over the line?

 

[Quicksilverchameleon7]

Originally posted by ice-9:
quicksilverchameleon7 said:
i think this was a rather presumptious statement to make and certainly uncalled for. I am an asian male and against affirmative action. I'd like to think that i was hired for a job based on my qualifications, not the color of my hair or the tone of my skin.
and hey, i haven't waved a neo-nazi flag in years.
Affirmative action is pretty much a chicken or the egg problem. Should there be gov't intervention to try and level the playing field from discrimination (both conscious and subconscious?) How can there ultimately be a level playing field however, when affirmative action discriminates?
As for the rest of your post, it's taking things a little bit off track from the topic don't you think? "be happy you don't live in china"? i fail to see the relevance.
Well in other words stop complaining about affirmative action having been mandated here.
It was instituted for a logical purpose, and a compassionate purpose. Do all you oppositional Bluelighters at least have a detached intellectual comprehension of the definition of the word compassion?
It was instituted partially to offer reparations to their people for the hardships, and turmoil and insurmountble odds their ancestors faced.
The reason I mentioned the migrant chinese workers is because their plight are much more distressing when collated next to any American, or European citizens personal tribulations. In other words your petulant complaints regarding affirmative action, and your supposed incapability to become gainfully employed is pathetic in comparison to their terrible problems. I'm not directing that last scathing remark towards anyone in particular.
Just in general it's disffusely directed towards anyone who continues to bellyache unecessarily,and self pityingly whine,or moan, and irascably bitch constantly about affirmative action. Actually I kind of find the fact that anyone had to gumption to post a thread on affirmative action moderately offensive.
This may sound cold, and inconsiderate on my part. I'm not trying to sound cold or unconcerned, nor am I trying to infuriate you, It's just that in the gigantic gestaltian picture concerning the whole entirety of human civilization there are larger more critical quandaries afflicting the inhabitants of our world.
Try diversifying, and broadening your course load if your still in college. Your better off if you have multiple talents, and majors even, versatility, and multitasking capability are important if you want to remain competitive in the job market. If you've been reading anything about graduates gaining employment, its a known fact that there are less positions in all the fields of occupation because of the job cutbacks that have in effect fired many middleaged employees. This means they transfer elsewhere and when they do young recent college graduates lose out on jobs because the middelaged applicants are overqualified, and get top priority consideration first. I mean who is the employer going to choose a new wet behind the ears inexperienced recent college grad, or someone who has twenty years of experience in addition to a college education under their belts, and who may have also kept up to date with any technological advancements, or new information in their chosen occupation by attending conferences, conventions, or furthering their eucation on the weekends in their spare recreational time.
Think about it. The employer is looking for a reliable job applicant he can hire, and move right in and get to work in a smooth unproblematic manner.