tranqueelo
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Perception is not reality. Perception masks/morphs reality, it is the only thing standing between you, i and reality.
is this reality?
- Thread starter fugly
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snoopsterz
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i posted somthing almost the same in what used to be chill out room
*plur*
snoopsterz
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http://www.phatsounds.co.uk/
*plur*
snoopsterz
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http://www.phatsounds.co.uk/
FoX
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There is no OBJECTIVE reality.
Or,if there is, it is inconsequential and means nothing without interpretation, which is by definiton subjective.
Let us say you are holding a coffee cup.
How do you know what you are holding is a coffee cup?
Becuase someone told you it was a coffee cup?
Because you put coffee in it? Why did you do that? Because someone told you it is a coffee cup?
I have one fo those...I just sat it on my head. Is it now a hat?
It IS a coffee cup only as long as most people AGREE it is.
Thus, your reality is perception, altered by the perceptions of those arounnd you.
Sure, "stuff happens"...but without being given context by the mind and soul this "stuff" means nothing and thus is not real.
There is a great movie called The Gods Must Be Crazy that involves the "disruption of reality" created when a Coca-Cola bottle falls from an airplane into the village of a Kalahari bushmen.
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If it's orange and fuzzy, it's FoXy....
"So, how's it working out for you...being clever?"-Tyler Durden, Fight Club
**"Down with paranoia!"**
Or,if there is, it is inconsequential and means nothing without interpretation, which is by definiton subjective.
Let us say you are holding a coffee cup.
How do you know what you are holding is a coffee cup?
Becuase someone told you it was a coffee cup?
Because you put coffee in it? Why did you do that? Because someone told you it is a coffee cup?
I have one fo those...I just sat it on my head. Is it now a hat?
It IS a coffee cup only as long as most people AGREE it is.
Thus, your reality is perception, altered by the perceptions of those arounnd you.
Sure, "stuff happens"...but without being given context by the mind and soul this "stuff" means nothing and thus is not real.
There is a great movie called The Gods Must Be Crazy that involves the "disruption of reality" created when a Coca-Cola bottle falls from an airplane into the village of a Kalahari bushmen.
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If it's orange and fuzzy, it's FoXy....
"So, how's it working out for you...being clever?"-Tyler Durden, Fight Club
**"Down with paranoia!"**
Ok, I posted this to see what other people's opinions on the matter would be. Now let me explain my position on the subject.
First off, let me start by stating the definition of reality:
REALITY: the state of things as they are, rather than as they are imagined to be.
We are all living in reality. This world, you, me, the universe is reality. Reality is not what you see in your mind. (that would be your own reality, but not the true reality.) Everyone sees things a little differently. Just b/c people view things differently doesn't mean that there are many different realities. Let me give an example:
a man is hit by a car walking across the street. Now 5 people saw this happen. All 5 people have a different perception on what happened. Even though they all saw it differently, the reality of the incident is the man was hit by the car. That fact does not change. Therefore you can decipher reality from human thoughts. Now if only one person saw a man hit by a car and the other 4 people didn't, it is safe to assume that it didn't happen.
What goes on inside a person's head is not reality. What we see physically is reality. Our minds can view reality however we want to view it, but that does not make it true reality. We know that we are living here on earth and that there are people and everything here is real. This is because the vast majority of us human beings are seeing and living and feeling the same way.
Crazy people do not see the true reality b/c their minds fog the truth, but they can't escape the fact that they are living in true reality whether in a mental home or somewhere else. They either choose not to see reality or they are incapable of seeing it b/c of a physical problem with their brain.
My whole point is, people may think what they see is reality in their minds, but true reality does not come from the mind. The vast majority of the human race depicts true reality. This is the only way we as humans can interpret what we see in every day life as REALITY.
Fugly
First off, let me start by stating the definition of reality:
REALITY: the state of things as they are, rather than as they are imagined to be.
We are all living in reality. This world, you, me, the universe is reality. Reality is not what you see in your mind. (that would be your own reality, but not the true reality.) Everyone sees things a little differently. Just b/c people view things differently doesn't mean that there are many different realities. Let me give an example:
a man is hit by a car walking across the street. Now 5 people saw this happen. All 5 people have a different perception on what happened. Even though they all saw it differently, the reality of the incident is the man was hit by the car. That fact does not change. Therefore you can decipher reality from human thoughts. Now if only one person saw a man hit by a car and the other 4 people didn't, it is safe to assume that it didn't happen.
What goes on inside a person's head is not reality. What we see physically is reality. Our minds can view reality however we want to view it, but that does not make it true reality. We know that we are living here on earth and that there are people and everything here is real. This is because the vast majority of us human beings are seeing and living and feeling the same way.
Crazy people do not see the true reality b/c their minds fog the truth, but they can't escape the fact that they are living in true reality whether in a mental home or somewhere else. They either choose not to see reality or they are incapable of seeing it b/c of a physical problem with their brain.
My whole point is, people may think what they see is reality in their minds, but true reality does not come from the mind. The vast majority of the human race depicts true reality. This is the only way we as humans can interpret what we see in every day life as REALITY.
Fugly
FoX
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Don't take this as a slam, but I think that is a vast oversimplification.
The Earth is flat and is orbited by the sun.
The ONLY "true" reality there is is the one in your head. Everything else is just meaningless stimuli.
[Note: This message has been edited by FoX]
So, how, if this is true, do you propose to measure this "as they are"? You maintain:
There is NO difference in what we see physically and what goes on inside our head...you have to go through one to get to the other. EVERYTHING that you experience is based on your perception.
How do you know it was a man? And how do you know it was a car? Socially negotiated definitions...they have nothing to do with anything other than that is what we have defined them as.
Just because something is a popular view doesn't make it any more or less true.
Which negates your point that there IS a true reality. What we accept as reality IS a "collective hunch"...a socially negotiated collective delusion. Just because a series of perceptions is shared by a number of people doesn't make those perceptions TRUE.
The Earth is flat and is orbited by the sun.
The ONLY "true" reality there is is the one in your head. Everything else is just meaningless stimuli.
[Note: This message has been edited by FoX]
I'm gonna have to disagree with you. What we think or see through our minds is only our own reality. If the world is flat then why does the vast majority of the world believe it is round. Because there is physical evidence. You and I and everyone around us (excluding those with mental problems) view reality just like everyone else does. We base our reality on what the majority of us humans see. Also another example...animals, they see just the same as us. Do they think like we do? No. They just go on instinct. So if a person hears the doorbell ring (and according to you, this is their own reality) why does their dog bark and know that someone is at the door if in fact this reality is only in THEIR OWN head? There is one basic reality, hard core truth, everything else is in your head. What I'm saying is, if reality according to you comes from your brain only then why do most people see and feel the same things? Does everyone share a brain...is telepathy some how involved without us knowing? Please explain your position.
Fugly
Fugly
jilljamie_99
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fox...dont you believe in science? it sounds like you believe that we are all living under a mass delusion of some sort...i understand that perception is everyone's OWN reality and that we each percieve things differently but lets just say there is a yellow ball on the floor. there are 6 people in the room and they all see the yellow ball. each of them write down what they see, they write down the color, weight, shape, height, texture, etc. and all come up with the same thing, that object exists within the context of our world. concrete reality as can be proven by science to be true is important. if the only thing that matters is the reality as you percieve it and everything else is just meaningless stimuli then we would all live in a dream world. why do you think that we live under a "socially negotiated collective delusion"? are you saying that all the world is just a figment of our imagination where we make up words for things that dont exist? like the matrix? then what do you believe we are? back to the ball example...if we are all under a mass delusion then what do you think that ball really is?
jill
jill
just to feed the fire
our essence - down to our energy state (spirituality) and chemical makeup (physicality) at any point and time is part of reality.
your perception is a part of reality.
we have a parsing algorithm for interpreting the "meaningless stimula" and this parsing algorithm resonates with others to form a "collective hunch" and gives the stimula meaning - but this is only a temporal structure in reality - it is built by cultures and life forms - and it fades with them.
the parsing algorithm is not reality anymore that a series of packets traveling across a network is the network.
our essence - down to our energy state (spirituality) and chemical makeup (physicality) at any point and time is part of reality.
your perception is a part of reality.
we have a parsing algorithm for interpreting the "meaningless stimula" and this parsing algorithm resonates with others to form a "collective hunch" and gives the stimula meaning - but this is only a temporal structure in reality - it is built by cultures and life forms - and it fades with them.
the parsing algorithm is not reality anymore that a series of packets traveling across a network is the network.
Flower
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fugly:
When Fox said "the Earth is flat and is orbited by the sun" he was not stating this as a fact, but as a prime example of how popular belief does not denote TRUTH. At one time, human population believed the earth to be flat - what we now know is not true. How much of what we "know" right now will later be proved false and looked back upon in this same light?
Take the entire concept of reality - is it observable in and of itself? Can we take a peice of it and examine it, study it? No. Reality is inferred indirectly - from our reactions to it and within it (our perception). Since every person will have a unique reaction to and perception of reality, then reality itself must be a makeup of those perceptions, not a fixed "thing."
Personally I refuse to believe that reality is something that we are born into which is inflicted upon us, rather than something that stems from us. If you don't construct your own reality, then you are a part of someone else's construct of reality. If you close your mind to percieve only one reality - then that is the reality that will become REAL to you.
When Fox said "the Earth is flat and is orbited by the sun" he was not stating this as a fact, but as a prime example of how popular belief does not denote TRUTH. At one time, human population believed the earth to be flat - what we now know is not true. How much of what we "know" right now will later be proved false and looked back upon in this same light?
Take the entire concept of reality - is it observable in and of itself? Can we take a peice of it and examine it, study it? No. Reality is inferred indirectly - from our reactions to it and within it (our perception). Since every person will have a unique reaction to and perception of reality, then reality itself must be a makeup of those perceptions, not a fixed "thing."
Personally I refuse to believe that reality is something that we are born into which is inflicted upon us, rather than something that stems from us. If you don't construct your own reality, then you are a part of someone else's construct of reality. If you close your mind to percieve only one reality - then that is the reality that will become REAL to you.
FoX
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Fugly and Jilljamie, I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying.
What you are speaking of are atoms that are arranged into certain compounds that are arranged into certain combinations that are in certain shapes and travel in certain directions.
Those things are not reality...it only becomes a reality when it is given CONTEXT by the mind.
Reality has less to do with what is "there" than with what those "things" mean.
For example:
None of those concepts is 'real.' They are socially agreed-upon conventions that help you make sense of what you are seeing. It is only a ball because that is what we have agreed that it is, or that you have been told it is.
At one point the majority of the world's population belived the Earth was flat. Then someone came along and made a more convincing argument that it was round. We now "know" neither is "true"... by the measure of science the Earth is "actually" elliptical...until more convincing context can come along and convince people otherwise.
Do I believe in science? of course I do...it is one of the better providers of context that exists because it is methodical...and it builds into itself that it is also fallible.
Perhaps another metaphor is in order:
You have a newspaper written in Chinese? What does it mean? If you can't read the chinese script, it doesn't mean anything... only when you CAN read Chinese does it mean something.
The same is true for the world and 'reality' without context which is provided by social interaction nothing is "real" because it means nothing. It just "is."
Just like the dog and the doorbell. Does the dog know it is a "doorbell"? No. The first time the dog hears a doorbell ever it does not know anything about it...eventually it will LEARN that it means someone is at the door. Until then, it still means nothing... its just there.
[This message has been edited by FoX (edited 12 December 2000).]
What you are speaking of are atoms that are arranged into certain compounds that are arranged into certain combinations that are in certain shapes and travel in certain directions.
Those things are not reality...it only becomes a reality when it is given CONTEXT by the mind.
Reality has less to do with what is "there" than with what those "things" mean.
For example:
How do you know its yellow? Or that its a ball? Or how much it weighs?
None of those concepts is 'real.' They are socially agreed-upon conventions that help you make sense of what you are seeing. It is only a ball because that is what we have agreed that it is, or that you have been told it is.
At one point the majority of the world's population belived the Earth was flat. Then someone came along and made a more convincing argument that it was round. We now "know" neither is "true"... by the measure of science the Earth is "actually" elliptical...until more convincing context can come along and convince people otherwise.
Do I believe in science? of course I do...it is one of the better providers of context that exists because it is methodical...and it builds into itself that it is also fallible.
Perhaps another metaphor is in order:
You have a newspaper written in Chinese? What does it mean? If you can't read the chinese script, it doesn't mean anything... only when you CAN read Chinese does it mean something.
The same is true for the world and 'reality' without context which is provided by social interaction nothing is "real" because it means nothing. It just "is."
Just like the dog and the doorbell. Does the dog know it is a "doorbell"? No. The first time the dog hears a doorbell ever it does not know anything about it...eventually it will LEARN that it means someone is at the door. Until then, it still means nothing... its just there.
[This message has been edited by FoX (edited 12 December 2000).]
FoX
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A few more cents:
Flower said:
Fugly said:
[This message has been edited by FoX (edited 12 December 2000).]
Flower said:
Thank you for distilling most of what I just said into a succinct paragraph...wish I had been that concise.
Fugly said:
How do you 'know' how everybody else views things? And what 'is' a mental 'problem'?
[This message has been edited by FoX (edited 12 December 2000).]
Trancendance
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Why does reality have to be EITHER perception OR actual physical existence? Both are components of reality.
But, just because something is perceived does not mean it doesn't exist, unless you are a true idealist.
As a side note:
Ultraviolet radiation will give you cancer whether or not you perceive it and give it meaning. You can then die of cancer without ever realizing you had cancer.
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Trance and Dance: the enlightened path to Trancendence.
But, just because something is perceived does not mean it doesn't exist, unless you are a true idealist.
As a side note:
Ultraviolet radiation will give you cancer whether or not you perceive it and give it meaning. You can then die of cancer without ever realizing you had cancer.
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Trance and Dance: the enlightened path to Trancendence.
FoX
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It isn't a question of something 'existing' or 'not existing'....
I think now we're getting bogged down in semantics....
The point is, absolutely nothing is objective...whenever we perceive anything we hang our own meanings on it, which are influenced by things we learn from others. This is what builds our individual 'reality.'
Do we have a way of KNOWING that we are not all part of someone else's dream or 'the matrix' or whatever? Nope...cos the only tools we have to rely on are our own perceptions and those of others around us. Thus the 'collective hunch' model.
[This message has been edited by FoX (edited 12 December 2000).]
I think now we're getting bogged down in semantics....
The point is, absolutely nothing is objective...whenever we perceive anything we hang our own meanings on it, which are influenced by things we learn from others. This is what builds our individual 'reality.'
Do we have a way of KNOWING that we are not all part of someone else's dream or 'the matrix' or whatever? Nope...cos the only tools we have to rely on are our own perceptions and those of others around us. Thus the 'collective hunch' model.
[This message has been edited by FoX (edited 12 December 2000).]
this all depends on how you define reality.
Fox/Flower - (to me)you are both defining reality to be only things perceived - Fox - you go so far as to say - only those things percieved that have meaning. Therefore (i assume) you change your reality by changing your perception - and extend your reality by gaining more knowledge to extend the realm of meaning.
i find this definition a little limiting in scope.
i define reality to be the set of all possible combonations/ permutations of energy patterns.
i define my current world to be all those patterns currently in existence in the perceptual proximity of my locale (in time and space)
i define the limit of my physicality to be all those things which i theoretically can perceive in my current world.
i define my perceptual realm as all those those things i can currently percieve.
i defined my parsed realm as all those things i see that have meaning.
i can only communicate through my parsed realm - i attempt to expand my parsed realm to my perceptual realm. i work to push my limit of physicality.
[This message has been edited by kewl (edited 12 December 2000).]
Fox/Flower - (to me)you are both defining reality to be only things perceived - Fox - you go so far as to say - only those things percieved that have meaning. Therefore (i assume) you change your reality by changing your perception - and extend your reality by gaining more knowledge to extend the realm of meaning.
i find this definition a little limiting in scope.
i define reality to be the set of all possible combonations/ permutations of energy patterns.
i define my current world to be all those patterns currently in existence in the perceptual proximity of my locale (in time and space)
i define the limit of my physicality to be all those things which i theoretically can perceive in my current world.
i define my perceptual realm as all those those things i can currently percieve.
i defined my parsed realm as all those things i see that have meaning.
i can only communicate through my parsed realm - i attempt to expand my parsed realm to my perceptual realm. i work to push my limit of physicality.
[This message has been edited by kewl (edited 12 December 2000).]
Flower
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"Fox/Flower - (to me)you are both defining reality to be only things perceived"
Well... not quite.
The point I was trying to make was that it would not matter if there were an objective reality or not if we were not here to percieve it, to react to it and that the only way to in fact define the concept of reality is through our perceptions of it - indirectly.
Now... as to how I personally view reality?
I believe that reality functions behind all of the universe of objects and forces as a cohesive, unified singularity. There is a Oneness of all that exists, and my place is at the center of the ongoing flow of events and relationships of my personal experience, or my life.
In this view, reality consists not of particles interacting inanely in an independent physical plane, but rather of values, psychological elements of mind, made real. The particles are there, real, but they function in ways whose essential nature ultimately consists of values in the mind of the experiencer.
This would mean that all that you hold in your mind - your hopes, fears, emotions, self-image - become continuously realized in your life; creating your reality. All the events and relationships you encounter, all you experience, is a manifestation of the total set of values held within the mind - all that you perceive and experience, including the self, are aspects of a singularity.
This sums up to mean that you are not just a conscious observer in your life, but the sum of all that you encounter, the essence. So all of it together reflect in absolute exactitude what you are. I am my Reality.
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*We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.*
Well... not quite.
The point I was trying to make was that it would not matter if there were an objective reality or not if we were not here to percieve it, to react to it and that the only way to in fact define the concept of reality is through our perceptions of it - indirectly.
Now... as to how I personally view reality?
I believe that reality functions behind all of the universe of objects and forces as a cohesive, unified singularity. There is a Oneness of all that exists, and my place is at the center of the ongoing flow of events and relationships of my personal experience, or my life.
In this view, reality consists not of particles interacting inanely in an independent physical plane, but rather of values, psychological elements of mind, made real. The particles are there, real, but they function in ways whose essential nature ultimately consists of values in the mind of the experiencer.
This would mean that all that you hold in your mind - your hopes, fears, emotions, self-image - become continuously realized in your life; creating your reality. All the events and relationships you encounter, all you experience, is a manifestation of the total set of values held within the mind - all that you perceive and experience, including the self, are aspects of a singularity.
This sums up to mean that you are not just a conscious observer in your life, but the sum of all that you encounter, the essence. So all of it together reflect in absolute exactitude what you are. I am my Reality.
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*We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.*
Trancendance
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Fox-
You're making two very different claims, and I believe you're saying 2 follows from 1:
1. We cannot perceive anything objectively.
2. There is no objective reality.
The objectivity of reality is not dependent on our perception of it. Reality exists independent of perception, unless you are a true idealist.
So, I guess I'm asking, are you a true idealist?
Note: "idealist" in the traditional philosophical notion of only what is perceived exists.
Also, you're defining knowledge too strictly, I believe. If you require 100% certainty, you'll know very little. However, pragmatism demands a probability-based definition of knowledge.
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Trance and Dance: the enlightened path to Trancendence.
You're making two very different claims, and I believe you're saying 2 follows from 1:
1. We cannot perceive anything objectively.
2. There is no objective reality.
The objectivity of reality is not dependent on our perception of it. Reality exists independent of perception, unless you are a true idealist.
So, I guess I'm asking, are you a true idealist?
Note: "idealist" in the traditional philosophical notion of only what is perceived exists.
Also, you're defining knowledge too strictly, I believe. If you require 100% certainty, you'll know very little. However, pragmatism demands a probability-based definition of knowledge.
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Trance and Dance: the enlightened path to Trancendence.
Belisarius
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Fox/Flower, is this just a re-statement of the "if a tree falls in the forest..." koan?
You know how most people view that, though I have my own views.
You know how most people view that, though I have my own views.
i have found that education/training has alot to do with how a person defines reality.
Engineers and scientist use information to solve problems then take the solutions and apply them against "the world" every day - so we define reality as the "working set". (its a little deeper than this.
people in the soft sciences (socialogy - psychology - buissness - ect) tend to look at human interactive as the definition of reality.
personally - i have a higher degree in mathematics and work as a computer programmer.
(NOTE: of course this is stereotypical - but it does show a point)
Engineers and scientist use information to solve problems then take the solutions and apply them against "the world" every day - so we define reality as the "working set". (its a little deeper than this.
people in the soft sciences (socialogy - psychology - buissness - ect) tend to look at human interactive as the definition of reality.
personally - i have a higher degree in mathematics and work as a computer programmer.
(NOTE: of course this is stereotypical - but it does show a point)
Fox/Flower
so if you view reality as what you see in your mind, what if you view yourself as not real. Does this mean that you do not exist, you are not real? This is what I am understanding from what you are saying. Reality exists only in your own mind. So everything I come in contact with is only reality b/c in my OWN mind it is reality?
Let me ask you this...if reality only exists in my mind then I should be able to change my reality. Well then why can't I look at something (a chair for example) and say that is real to me at this time...but in a few minutes decide: well I choose for this chair not to be real. Why then does it not disappear? Why can I continue to sit on it and feel it. WHY?- Because it is reality-real. Not just reality within my own mind. And other people around me would state the same. It is real to them, they can feel it sit in it and CANNOT make it disappear. Thus the chair is real not just a figment of reality within the mind.
Understand my point?
Fugly
so if you view reality as what you see in your mind, what if you view yourself as not real. Does this mean that you do not exist, you are not real? This is what I am understanding from what you are saying. Reality exists only in your own mind. So everything I come in contact with is only reality b/c in my OWN mind it is reality?
Let me ask you this...if reality only exists in my mind then I should be able to change my reality. Well then why can't I look at something (a chair for example) and say that is real to me at this time...but in a few minutes decide: well I choose for this chair not to be real. Why then does it not disappear? Why can I continue to sit on it and feel it. WHY?- Because it is reality-real. Not just reality within my own mind. And other people around me would state the same. It is real to them, they can feel it sit in it and CANNOT make it disappear. Thus the chair is real not just a figment of reality within the mind.
Understand my point?
Fugly