Is LSD-25 actually rare?

[MentalMagnificient]

Recently i came upon a "claim" from a chemist that produces LSD that claims that the original LSD-25 recipe is rare and that the vast majority of LSD is actually ALD-52 of which he says is very similar to actual LSD. He is very detailed about his claim and knowing that many vendors do try to pass off one chemicals as another I would not be particularly surprised if this is an actual occurrence.

On Erowid an entry on ALD-52 is as follows:

With the interest recently in the drug ALD-52 on this group I thought the following extract from 'The Brotherhood of Eternal Love' by Stewart Tendler & David May, Panther Books, England 1984 might be useful:

'Windsor [US lab] was not producing lSD but ALD-52, similar but not illegal, or so [Tim] Scully believed. Scully found the ALD formula among scientific papers and books in the specialist library at Berkeley. It was a compound [Albert] Hofmann had tested years before. At the University of California Medical Center(sic), Scully uncovered the scientific paper Hofmann and a colleague had published on the drug. From the US Patent Office he drew patent number 2,810,723, lodged by Sandoz with production details. In the Hallucinogens co-authored by Osmond and Hofmann, Scully discovered a table comparing the effects of ALD and other drugs in the same family.

The table suggested that ALD might actually have advantages over LSD, reducing any side effects but achieving a stronger trip. Measurements of brain waves while people were taking the two drugs showed that while LSD produced brain waves associated with intense concentration and anxiety, ALD produced brain waves showing a more relaxed mental state.

There was one snag. Hofmann's formula meant making LSD first, then converting it into ALD. Although the finished product might be legal , at a crucial stage in its production it was illegal. The solution was a simple reversal in the order of production so that at no time was the drug illegal. Neither Hitchcock nor the Brothers were told of ALD. Hitchcock had been badly burned financially when STP had picked up a bad name on the streets. It was thought he would oppose ALD as yet another innovation that would prove difficult to sell. The drug was simply labelled 'acid', and he and the Brotherhood were none the wiser.'

If this is true and actual LSD-25 is rare and most of it is actually ALD-52 what does this mean in terms safety? Is ALD-52 as safe as LSD-25 known to be? Or would non clinical studies thinking they has LSD have actually been researching ALD-52?

In the modern age what benefit would producing ALD-52 instead of LSD-25 bring? Obviously they are very similar but as we can see with many other psychedelics minute changes to structure can have big impacts up to death. Now I do not think ALD-52 is deadly but there may or may not be some other long term affects produced by the chemical assuming the claims made are in fact true. Does anyone know if ALD-52 is similar enough to show up as LSD-25 during the common tests? I have not been able to find a whole lot of information on it. Perhaps none of this is a big deal but when ingesting mind and body altering substances I put great importance on knowing the potential risks of such substances. If anyone could shed any light on this It would be much appreciated.

 

[Clocktower]

The short answer is: no. So far in 2016, over 1 percent of samples tested by ecstasydata.org have contained LSD.

https://www.ecstasydata.org/stats_substance_by_year.php

 

[MentalMagnificient]

The short answer is: no.

Your response is like someone asking in school if Christopher Columbus Sailed into the new world in the year 1785 and the teacher simply saying no without ever teaching the correct answer.

 

[PotatoMan]

hmm.. i've found that out of the 3 tabs i've gotten off the street last year, they each tested positive with elrich's.

will those LSD analogues like ALD-52, ETH LAD and 1p-LSD all react as LSD-25/AMT does with elrich's?

 

[Clocktower]

I'll elaborate:

If you're looking for evidence to support the claim that "most LSD is actually ALD-52," there is none. Based on the evidence that's available, the claim is simply not true.

If you're looking for detailed information about the safety profile of ALD-52, there is none. It is not yet a well-researched drug.

Standard reagent tests (Ehrlich's) will give the same results for LSD and ALD-52, since both are indoles. If you want to be certain that your product is LSD and not ALD-52, get it lab-tested. If you ask me, though, that's going a bit overkill for the sake of a conspiracy theory.

 

[The Shadow Self]

Just seek out all the tests that have been done recently by EC. Absolutely LSD, and actually pretty damn pure, clocking in at 97,98 and even 99% pure, with VERY little ISO LSD present. Acid is not rare, and it's probably as plentiful as ever if you know where to look. As I've said before...some of the best LSD ever produced is all around, and again, it isn't hard to find. The testing of LSD is becoming more common, and the DNMA's actually pay for the tests if you submit them with a verified code. It's a beautiful thing, to be quite honest.

 

[MentalMagnificient]

I'll elaborate:

If you're looking for evidence to support the claim that "most LSD is actually ALD-52," there is none. Based on the evidence that's available, the claim is simply not true.

If you're looking for detailed information about the safety profile of ALD-52, there is none. It is not yet a well-researched drug.

Standard reagent tests (Ehrlich's) will give the same results for LSD and ALD-52, since both are indoles. If you want to be certain that your product is LSD and not ALD-52, get it lab-tested. If you ask me, though, that's going a bit overkill for the sake of a conspiracy theory.

I appreciate the reply but I wouldn't consider it a conspiracy when I simply am just investigating a claim to ensure I am safe when ingesting a powerful chemical. However the reassurance is much appreciated. I had a suspicion it was just "market talk" and now it seems you have confirmed them. Thanks

 

[Ismene]

That brotherhood of eternal love book is choc full of bullshit.

 

[TheBlackPirate]

That brotherhood of eternal love book is choc full of bullshit.

Again with the cursing insults, why?

Thus far you insulted The Brotherhood of Eternal Love, Ram Dass, Stanislav Grof, Timothy Leary, and perhaps others I haven't noticed. Is any part of psychedelic culture beyond your attacks? At least if you're disagreeing then please disagree in a respectful way.

 

[consumer]

LSD is certainly around. I had an amazing time yesterday on two tabs of Swiss Bliss lsd that Energy Control tested at 146ug of 99.5% purity lsd. Amazing stuff.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Again with the cursing insults, why?

Thus far you insulted The Brotherhood of Eternal Love, Ram Dass, Stanislav Grof, Timothy Leary, and perhaps others I haven't noticed. Is any part of psychedelic culture beyond your attacks? At least if you're disagreeing then please disagree in a respectful way.

While Ismene is being a bit aggro, I agree with him that most of the prominent figures in the Psychedelic movement should be taken with a grain of salt. For example, as much as I respect Tim Leary, many would argue he's the reason things went downhill in the late sixties for our beloved counter-culture.

OP, with the understanding that LSD is anxiety ridden and full of deep thought, and that ALD-52 is chill as a cucumber, I would argue that 99% of tasteless blotters are in fact LSD. All the tasteless L I've had has produced intense states of both anxiety and bliss, with tons of thought looping and the like. I have yet to try ALD-52, but I'd be willing to bet ALD-52 made very few rounds until this past year.

 

[yepyepwoah]

I don't know, i wod take the CIA and COINTELPRO as the reason the 60's counterculture died off instead of tim leary...

Then again, my hats are many, and they are all tin foil ;-)

 

[Ismene]

Again with the cursing insults, why?

Why are you so offended by "cussing"? Are you a vicar?

Thus far you insulted The Brotherhood of Eternal Love, Ram Dass, Stanislav Grof, Timothy Leary

Why do you see having a different opinion as an "insult"? Don't you realise how much you miss out on by disregarding all views that differ from your own?

 

[spacejunk]

I don't know, i wod take the CIA and COINTELPRO as the reason the 60's counterculture died off instead of tim leary...

Then again, my hats are many, and they are all tin foil ;-)

...there are those that say Leary worked (directly or indirectly) for the CIA from the start!
It is hard to separate fact from fiction at this point.

 

[Ismene]

Can't see him working for the CIA spacejunk - I know he probably named a few names to get out of jail when they sent him down for 25 years for having half a joint. I don't think he got anyone else sent to jail tho with the names he named.

 

[spacejunk]

Yeah, i'm very sceptical of the claim, but i suppose what i am getting at is the amount of misinformation/heresay/conjecture when it comes to psychedelic history.
The involvement of intelligence services (and Cold War paranoia generally) doesnt really help matters either...

 

[Incunabula]

Again with the cursing insults, why?

Thus far you insulted The Brotherhood of Eternal Love, Ram Dass, Stanislav Grof, Timothy Leary, and perhaps others I haven't noticed. Is any part of psychedelic culture beyond your attacks? At least if you're disagreeing then please disagree in a respectful way.

If you get offended by Ismene's posts, then you're the one who's got issues - not Ismene.

On the topic:
There's more myths and urban legends about LSD than any other drug. That chemist OP talked to is full of shit, it's. The fact is, LSD is not that hard to synthesize as urban legends normally posits, it's just beyond the skills of an undergrad kitchen chemist. And yes, some things like ergotamine is difficult to acquire, and producing it yourself from ergot fungus obviously requires specialized skills. But there's lots of people in the world with those skills.

This is an interesting thread, btw: https://www.reddit.com/r/LSD/comments/1u64zl/i_am_a_chemist_who_has_illicitly_synthesized/

 

[Tranced]

If you check wedinos there is a lot of actual LSD-25 which has been submitted for testing.

In my experience the more commercially available Street acid acquired from more obvious avenues is often something else which is cheaper/more accessible (DOx, 25i).

You have more chance of getting actual LSD from the more focussed, underground psychedelic communities (I.e hippies).

 

[TheBlackPirate]

Regarding Ismene, as a reference these are the comments I mentioned from other threads.

[Ego death,] I think it's some bullshit Tim Leary made up in the 60s.

I didn't comment on this previously and should comment on this now. As with most of Ismene's insults this is disrespectful, false, and wasn't supported with evidence. In fact recent research involving brain scans has observed the experience of "ego death" is a phenomenon associated with alterations in the default mode network of the human brain. I am correct and am respectfully supporting this with evidence. My evidence is here.

The posterior cingulate and medial prefrontal cortices are hubs in the so-called default mode network, a web of interconnected brain regions that becomes active when people allow their minds to wander. Some researchers have proposed that the default mode network is crucial for introspective thought and even for generating the sense of consciousness, and Nutt thinks the finding that psilocybin inhibits this network could help explain the surreal experiences the drug causes. "What I think is going on is that this network in the brain that pulls together a sense of self becomes less active," he says, "and you get this fragmented or dissipated sense of being."

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/01/mapping-psychedelic-brain

[Ram Dass is] A vulnerable gay guy with a massive crush on his half-naked young guru.

Ismene was incredibly derogatory and insulting. Disagreeing and insulting are different. Ismene is only interested in insulting and attacking the reputation of psychedelic leaders.

Go look at this. I agree with my earlier observation in this thread.

That brotherhood of eternal love book is choc full of bullshit.

Again with the cursing insults, why?

Thus far you insulted The Brotherhood of Eternal Love, Ram Dass, Stanislav Grof, Timothy Leary, and perhaps others I haven't noticed. Is any part of psychedelic culture beyond your attacks? At least if you're disagreeing then please disagree in a respectful way.

for the last 10-20 years Stanislav Grof disowned drugs and now pushes some bullshit breathing technique

Wow Ismene, I can't comprehend why you chose going off topic lying about and insulting the work of Grof. Since you did I plan on defending him. I recognize several prohibitionist governments have taken swings at Grof. I can't comprehend why you did. Perhaps you disagree with him, but why was lying about him and using curse words necessary? Perhaps this was not lying, perhaps you could have been confused in your comments?

Ismene I should stat with this 100% wrong claim from your earlier comment.



The truth is Grof is actively involved with psychedelic research and the psychedelic community. In fact Grof was on the CBC's international news program Ideas commenting on the value of LSD assisted psychotherapy as recently as October. Now let me include something you haven't included, evidence supporting my ideas. Here's the thread with the links:

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/778871-History-of-psychedelic-drugs-A-Canadian-perspective

As I have said, I support mature discussion and respectfully disagreeing while supporting our theories with evidence. The fact is Ismene isn't respectfully disagreeing and isn't providing evidence. Ismene is repeatedly insulting, cursing, and spreading negative misinformation about psychedelic leaders. This effectively destroys the reputation of those leaders and resultantly harms the reputation of psychedelic medicine as a whole.

Having respect when disagreeing and supporting our ideas with evidence protects the reputation and future of psychedelic medicine. Reputation has such high value, once the United States government couldn't stop the civil rights movement the government began attacking the reputation of the civil rights movement's leaders such as Marin Luther King.

I won't say, Ismene has negative intentions. I am only saying how we talk about the leaders of psychedelic culture influences the future of psychedelic use.

Let's protect the potential of psychedelic medicine and respect our psychedelic founding fathers. When disagreeing let's be respectful, provide evidence, avoid cursing, and avoid insults. The future of psychedelic medicine is at stake.

 

[mountainrange]

From what I have read, and with obvious speculation and logic; no-one since Sandoz has created LSD that was LSD created by Sandoz. I think this would be clear seeing as Sandoz were the first pharmaceutical company to patent, produce and distribute LSD. It might be like comparing the original Big Mac, the first ever Big Mac the McDonald's ever cooked for the public with the newer Big Mac of 2016. The recipe might be the same but it's theoretically not the same burger. That being said, pharmaceutical grade LSD has to be pure, it has to be human grade because well, that's what pharmaceutical companies separate their wares with street labs.

As for their acid not being acid. That's ludicrous. Why would it be any different? Why would it be a variation of LSD when they have the legal wiggle room to effectively create what is a very politically scrutinised substance. They have permission to create this stuff so, why would they do what some street sellers might do and sell or create something that isn't the actual product? It goes against the very premise of modern day research taking place. It's like being given the permission to take acid by your local police force and then dripping tap water over some blotters and pretending to be high. These guys HAVE to go ahead. They CAN create these substances. So why face lawsuits for misrepresenting and falsifying research?

I work it out like this:
Big pharma create the real thing. Street labs intend to create the next best thing. So big pharma will always be the real deal, because that's what they get paid to do and that's what they have government backing to do in the first place.