• Psychedelic Drugs Welcome Guest
    View threads about
    Posting RulesBluelight Rules
    PD's Best Threads Index
    Social ThreadSupport Bluelight
    Psychedelic Beginner's FAQ

Is DMT really the most powerful psychedelic?

Re: subjectivity
I suppose that's true, but given how much it's true it doesn't tell one much.

Whenever there's a "What's the most/least ___ psychedelic?" thread I assume the question is, "Given your experiential acumen and knowledge of trip reports, all else being equal, what is the psychedelic that is most likely to cause the average person to have a ___ experience and why might that be?"
Has anyone else tried IV DMT?
Dondante has a few posts in the Big and Dandy DMT thread regarding synthetic DMT IV use. I think he has a ketamine/IV DMT trip report as well. If I recall correctly, it's moderately more potent than smoking and less painful if you find DMT harsh on the lungs. If you can't "breakthrough" with smoking before you're unable to hold the pipe anymore, IV with a tourniquet to stall the rush is probably your best chance.
 
Last edited:
that's what psychedelic connoisseurs usually say, but I think it is exaggerated. to be honest, most 5HT2A psychedelics are pretty much alike, with only slight variations in the subjective effects - apart from their power. nobody can seriously say that DMT or LSD are not much more powerful entheogens than 2C-C or 2C-D.


DMT and LSD are more powerful entheogens then 2C-C or 2C-D. There, I said it, and I was serious.
 
^im going to have to agree with you on that one Swillow.
 
Impossible to say. A ++++ ego death experience can be reached on many psychs, this to me would be 'the most powerful' experience. From what I've read 5-MeO-DMT sounds in many ways more 'powerful' than DMT in respect to reaching this state.
 
Most powerful per mg? That is not really what matters to the person experiencing it, though it matters as far as knowing your dosage.

Fentanyl is crazy powerful per mg and yet is considered a lower tier drug next to Opana which is less powerful per mg, in the dosage typically prescribed.

Which drug is more potent should be separated from the question of which drug produces the most profound effects. Even that is subjective, but the question needs to be separated.
 
^The question has been separated. In my view, the--awkwardly worded--question is now "Given your experiential acumen and knowledge of trip reports, all else being equal, is DMT the psychedelic that is most likely to cause the average person to experience the full psychedelic spectrum of effects (perceptual/cognitive amplification and distortion, visions, ego loss, etc.) most vigorously while maintaining a high signal to noise ratio?"

This way, "power" is not as wrapped up in personal experiences and has nothing to do with potency; we can have a discussion that goes beyond answering that "it's all subjective." If I had a plus 4 huffing gasoline it wouldn't be defensible to call it psychedelically powerful on this account because others' experience reports don't back it up, and a reasonable argument can be made that a plus 4's likelihood remains lower for experiences of huffing gasoline than for other drugs. Likewise, though it may be more effective than DMT in causing ego death, 5-MeO-DMT could be argued to be a less powerful psychedelic in a more general sense because it isn't a "broad spectrum" psychedelic the way many others are (it has few visuals and tends to blind all thought in light rather than causing amplifications/distortions, and lower doses do not seem to have the broader effects of other psychedelics either.) 5-MeO-DMT may be the most powerful ego dissolving psychedelic, and the weight of that status puts it high on the power list, but ego death is only one aspect of many psychedelic effects that should be accounted for by the general term, "psychedelic."

Playing by these rules, I still say DMT or saliva rules (salvia does psychedelia different, but most psychedelic effects are still definitely there). Going into combo territory, I'd say IM psilocin/ketamine is the most powerful. I base that on numerous profound reports dealing with ketamine and psilocin alone, and that in my experience it's been more powerful than DMT with ketamine (though I could imagine many to find it the other way around). I've also experienced more unprecedented effects from it than any other single psychedelic or combo in the past (glossolalia, automatic symbolic body movements, rebirth, and a very consistent but also highly elaborate trip narrative). There's something about blocking NMDA-mediated signals with ketamine while at the same time amplifying 5-HT signals with a psychedelic that really charges something up.
DMT and LSD are more powerful entheogens then 2C-C or 2C-D. There, I said it, and I was serious.
Ungelesene_bettlek's quote was:
that's what psychedelic connoisseurs usually say, but I think it is exaggerated. to be honest, most 5HT2A psychedelics are pretty much alike, with only slight variations in the subjective effects - apart from their power. nobody can seriously say that DMT or LSD are not much more powerful entheogens than 2C-C or 2C-D.
The context set the expectation that he wouldn't say that, I think...

It's interesting that 5-HT2a psychedelics have been brought up. Salvia and 5-MeO-DMT have been mentioned as contenders for the title, and one is a kappa opioid agonist and there's evidence the other's effects are due predominately to 5-HT1a agonism.

See here regarding 5-MeO-DMT:
http://designer-drug.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/pdf/5-meo-dmt.5ht1a.paradox.pdf

In rats at least, when 5-MeO-DMT was administered, 5-HT1a antagonists but not 5-HT2a antagonists put in to block 5-MeO's effects on those respective receptors were shown to mediate stimulus control (lever presses for food). The 5-HT2a antagonists did antagonize stimulus control for DOM, though. 5-MeO-DMT does have activity at 5-HT2a, but it looks like it's not predominately responsible for its discernible effects in the rat.

Edit: more evidence from a 2006 study: http://www.springerlink.com/content/571257851858223k/
While the prevailing view was that the activation of 5-HT2 receptors is solely responsible for hallucinogenic drug effects, these results support a role for 5-HT1A receptors in the effects of the indoleamine hallucinogen 5-MeO-DMT on locomotor activity and PPI in rats.
 
Last edited:
Personally I feel that you could make a case for all the commonly agreed BIG PSYCHEDELICS. I think the predisposition of the user is being underestimated here. I've had lots of trips on a variety of chemical chariots & would have to conclude that the overriding factor as to whether one has a "powerful" experience isn't necessarily related entirely to the chemical consumed but more to the set & setting being "just so". I have wondered whether the brain has "windows of opportunity" when the full power of a psychedelic can be experienced.
The same user using the same chemical at the same dose usually but does not always receive a uniform response IME.
Thus I think it's too simplistic to make all but the most basic comparisons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptbokGsRdAU :)
 
One's definition of power is clearly a big factor in answering this question...

But to those with experience can LSD visuals ever become as immersive as a DMT breakthrough.

Meaning eyes open or closed makes no difference, truly in a 3-D alternate reality interacting and walking/ flying/ existing in this new space as smoking a few good hits of DMT does to me.

I've taken what I think is around 300 mics of LSD (4 really good hits)and it was only a small fraction of the "power" that I would say DMT has, on LSD I can see if I open my eyes, DMT I do not have eyes at all.
 
i'm surprised no one has mentioned DPT. i have never tried DPT or DMT, but from what i read, they both sound VERY intense
 
One's definition of power is clearly a big factor in answering this question...

But to those with experience can LSD visuals ever become as immersive as a DMT breakthrough.

From what I've heard, they can. If you google "thumbprint LSD," you can find an account of a guy's experience taking what I think he says is something like 50 milligrams of LSD. He says any microgram dose can't even compare. He says you can feel it almost as soon as it hits your tongue.
 
^I've read that receptor saturation occurs between 1000 and 2000 ug, and that it can be difficult to tell the difference between those doses, i.e. thumprints are a huge waste. For the average person there would probably be lots of confusion and other unwanted side effects at such high levels that they wouldn't encounter with DMT, too.

Re DPT: In my experience, sometimes the speed of onset seems to influence how "far" I go (even just staggering IM doses over 20 minutes it seems like it's not as good as if I do it all at once). I've experienced ego death, visions, and plus fours using DPT, and if I had to give up it or DMT it would probably be DMT. But that's just my preference, and I don't think this is the experience of most users. What makes DPT psychedelically less powerful on average may partially owe to the fact that it simply doesn't hit as fast.

I think swillow may have commented somewhere that it was even more powerful than DMT for him, though.
 
I don't have any first-hand experience, but the guy writing about his thumbprint experience says that anyone that's done one would laugh at the idea that there's no difference between a thumbprint and something like 1000ug. He hypothesizes that the saturation point might just be a temporary plateau of sorts. Also, his experience doesn't sound confused or full of side effects, just very pure.
 
From one of our venerable Advanced Drug Discussion moderators, fastandbulbous, who will hopefully come back:
The saturation point (>90% receptor occupancy) for 5HT2a receptors with LSD is around the 1500ug mark, but as mentioned, it also interacts with receptors for dopamine, noradrenaline & histamine. I would imagine that interacting wit those would only be a minor factor detrimental to the overall experience.

I honestly can't think of a reason other than bravado, stupidity or an unfortunate accident for consuming over say 5mg of LSD in one go - fucked if I would (my biggest dose is around the 600ug mark and that was enough1)
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=6120507&postcount=12

The problem is that it binds more with all those other receptors, like for histamine, at those levels. I believe that a dose that high would be different from a 1500ug dose, I just doubt it would be more psychedelic--more like a trippy, overstimulated allergy symptoms.

If I wasted as much LSD as a thumbprint requires I'd be rationalizing it was totally worth it and pure, too. Plus, it's easy to imagine playing up a myth if it makes them a hero in some people's eyes. It's not impossible, it's just much easier to imagine that what he claims is something untrue he'd really like to believe than that receptor saturation is merely a lower psychedelic plateau of LSD.
 
Last edited:
i'm surprised no one has mentioned DPT. i have never tried DPT or DMT, but from what i read, they both sound VERY intense

Actually, yeah, DPT (for me at least) is a lot more intense then DMT; its not as potent, but at high doses utterly buttfucks you. My greatest (and possbly only true) ++++ was from 150-200mg DPT sniffed. If words could describe it, i'd use them, but for now I'll just use this: 8o

Ayahuasca is also more "intense" and disorienting then smoked DMT; what with Caapi producing pretty strong effects on its own, adding DMT makes stratosphere hopping very plausible.
 
If I wasted as much LSD as a thumbprint requires I'd be rationalizing it was totally worth it and pure, too. Plus, it's easy to imagine playing up a myth if it makes them a hero in some people's eyes. It's not impossible, it's just much easier to imagine that what he claims is something untrue he'd really like to believe than that receptor saturation is merely a lower psychedelic plateau of LSD.

I don't doubt that some people would be motivated by those reasons to say what this guy said, by I do doubt that they were why this particular person was saying what he said. It just didn't seem like it. If you believe him, then he got the LSD directly from the suppliers, who had so much that losing a thumbprint would be insignificant. He also didn't volunteer the information; he was responding to someone asking about it. Plus, he said he was a graduate student in psychology or neuroscience, specializing in psychedelic research, or trying to at least. He could be lying, yeah, but I didn't think so.
 
everyone interested in 'thumbprinting' should give this thread a read: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1427364&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1
...really inspiring and visionary...

-

my -up to now*- heaviest ego-pieces-blasted-into-eternity-trip was from just 4.5g of cubensis and a few hits of n2o("few" because couldn't (and didn't need to) do any more at some point ;) ). setting was special though....


*woke up this morning to 1kg of NaOH being delivered. guess what I'm gonna do with it... :p
 
^^ I know! I Know! careful friend, wear eye protection <3

DMT I would say is the most powerful psychedelic that I have encountered. I do believe that it is subjective and that other substances at higher doses could be equally powerful.

mmmm mmmm DMT <3
 
dmt is the most powerful psychedelic i tried...

i'd say its like a awesome 5 hours acid trip concentrated in 5 minutes!
 
Top