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Is 25i NBOMe Neurotoxic?

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jacktheripper42

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May 9, 2017
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I took the 25i NBOMe substance as a 17/18 year old on four different occassions and as of late I've been dealing with some anxiety and depression issues. Does anyone know if the full agonism displayed on the 5ht2a receptors can alter their configuration or conformation in any way? I'd really appreciate the input of anyone with pharmacological experience. The substance is a full agonist of the 5ht2a receptors with an affinity of .044. Does this cause any permanent damage to these receptors? I know that the brain is constantly producing new receptors but is there a possibility that the configuration/confirmation on some of these receptors got permanently altered due to my NBOMe use? I'm scared shitless that I'm going to have a live a life filled with anxiety, depression and sleepless as a result of a decision I made as a 17 year old.

Please, can anyone provide me input on this matter?
 
confronting anxiety is part of the HUMAN condition
well maybe it is the Klingon condition too
I don't think 4 brain scaldings with 25i will have wrecked you - it is more likely to randomly kill a person than to destroy their brain for ever.

Do good things, and be healthy and see that it is not too strange to be anxious as part of being alive. all of us are.
 
There are some reports of permanet tolerance.. And same for mdma and meth, which are proven to be neurotoxic. So its really likely it is toxic.

But dont worry, for example Richard Feynman took ketamin few times, and its is proven to be neurotoxic too. But he did just as good after it.
 
Can you post studies or hard fact about that permanent tolerance?. To me it sounds like BS.

Regarding the 25I, it wasn´t the cause of your actual anxiety. Yoga, meditation and exercise use to help with it. It´s only a phase, you will recover in no time
 
A few drug experiences with something, even if it's toxic, are not going to cause permanent damage. It's normal to feel periods of anxiety and depression as you go through life, it happens to everyone. Generally it's the result of life circumstances and is a sign that you should evaluate the aspects of your life that are happening right now... likely there is something that isn't working for you and causing a buildup of negative feelings. Or maybe something is missing. Either way, you can do something about it.
 
Can you post studies or hard fact about that permanent tolerance?. To me it sounds like BS.

Regarding the 25I, it wasn´t the cause of your actual anxiety. Yoga, meditation and exercise use to help with it. It´s only a phase, you will recover in no time
Rock hard fact is that some people died from overdoses.
 
Rock hard fact is that some people died from overdoses.

What does that have to do with anything? It's well established that NBOMes can be lethal at excessive doses, but that in no way suggests a mechanism for permanent tolerance. Unless by permanent tolerance you mean "if you OD and die then you become 100% tolerant because you won't be able to feel effects from any dose of the drug ever again, trollolol."
 
Hmm well usually neurotoxicity actually involves something like pruning of neurons and the dying off of their far-reaching tentacles.

A receptor staying stuck in one conformation could kind of be considered neurotoxicity but it is not irreversible. Apparently there are instances where using another ligand on such a stuck receptor can get it unstuck, although I haven't actually heard that to be proven (well one example would be administering flumazenil during protracted benzo withdrawals to reset the conformationally fucked up GABA receptors). I also don't know if 25I actually causes these problems via this mechanism but I would say it is a good candidate for a theory indeed. Alas, I don't know of another drug to undo such a theoretical 'mistake'.

To some extent the conformational change could explain why tolerance can be unusually heavy...

Even suggesting the conformational change in some people particularly causing dysfunction leading to death does not explain why this apparently happens to people who have taken the same doses of the same NBOMe before although that perhaps could be explained by tachyphylaxis.



There are some reports of permanet tolerance.. And same for mdma and meth, which are proven to be neurotoxic. So its really likely it is toxic.

But dont worry, for example Richard Feynman took ketamin few times, and its is proven to be neurotoxic too. But he did just as good after it.

This is a terrible post... MDMA's neurotoxicity is really quite controversial and both MDMA and meth have very little to do with 25x-NBOMe, so nothing is likely concluded from that at all - they are not comparable. Ketamine neurotoxic in what way exactly? This is really a bunch of bla
 
This is a terrible post... MDMA's neurotoxicity is really quite controversial and both MDMA and meth have very little to do with 25x-NBOMe, so nothing is likely concluded from that at all - they are not comparable. Ketamine neurotoxic in what way exactly? This is really a bunch of bla

Ketamin - Olney's Lesions in mice(thats really enough to stay safe than sorry at very least). You better google before calling something bs. Also some guest of Joe Rogan said, that his eyes hurt for months(and some other adv effects) after single or maybe few sessions.

Permanent tolerance = permanent damage, no matter whats the substance. And I mean not like "not as exited about effects, as at first time" kinda tolerance (as its with weed, but after month break you can tell, that its hitting you as hard as "in childhood"(Russian saying)). But like whole level down, and for nbome in reports it is this way, even after half year breaks.

mdma, meth and nbome share reports on permanent tolerance.
 
No, that experiment was also done in primates which did not get Olney's lesions and rodents have quite different metabolisms than we do so it's really not that convincing. The only Olney's lesions sort of problem that have been detected have been in the worst K addicts. None of this says that sensible use is harmful in such a way, least of all Joe Rogan and his eyes (I haven't really heard about that issue before although he might have just meant photosensitivity which is does not prove neurotoxicity like a lot of similar issues do not even if they sound unpleasant).

I didn't need to google it because I've been addicted to K and a member of this forum for quite a while (I don't take dissociatives anymore though). I am not interested in a reputation that would earn me in any automatic way but what it might rightfully imply is that I've digged into a topic like this before.

It's interesting that you didn't include ketamine or other dissociatives (and how they do cause permanent tolerance) in that permanent tolerance remark cause it's the one insightful thing there.

Firstly though you should really be careful about throwing around the word damage because while it's saying nothing new that meth is damaging and I accept the relatively fresh idea that NBOMe's may cause lasting changes in the conformation of receptors, we really don't know yet whether for some of these like MDMA the changed response has a different reason like neurological routing. As brains are constantly being rerouted, influencing that is more difficult to call positive, negative or actual damage.
The type of tolerance to MDMA and not it's regular effects but you probably mean what they call 'the magic' may be much more elusive and sensitive. Delicate like how the true impact of a psychedelic after long abstinence is that much more powerful.

I share similar but quite varying views on MDMA, meth and NBOMe's, namely that I find MDMA not terribly harmful and not terribly addictive but you should still really keep it in check, I find NBOMe's to be not so addictive afaik - but i wouldn't be surprised if they are exceptionally addictive for a psychedelic - but very harmful in every instance and obviously toxic although the exact conditions that can kick that into a life-threatening condition remain unknown (though I have seen way too many reports here already indicating a persistent change in brain chemistry like acute development of a panic disorder with hardly the 'bad trip' to justify it). Then meth which is often very harmful but like a lot of other things depending on dosage as I take dexamphetamine medicinally and don't find oral meth not to be that much crazier, though I find IM 2-FMA to be obviously more rushy and problematic. Amphetamines can potentially be damaging in the long run for patients but it hardly helps to be more alarmist about it than the abuse problem alone warrants.

While I share concerns, you should avoid the oversimplification with all those assumptions you recklessly make.
 
Wow, hats off. You are correct.

However, my assumptions are rooted in better safe than sorry principle and urge to prevent people from doing damage(also public attention has to be drawn to basic human right of not being punched in the head, boxing, leg to head kicks in karate, bullying punching, and drunken/angry fight), well.. also laziness of doing extensive research, not in my recklessness.
 
That is a great principle and if someone attenuates harm concerns on a harm reduction forum, that doesn't mean we are all encouraged to just use obliviously... I guess there are those drugs I would want to steer anyone away from but yet others I would just more mildly redirect their course from for sure...

There are plenty of effects that can come from ketamine use that are worrisome, and even knowing those are part of the trip the effects from chronic abuse can still be quite troubling. For example the way it scrambled my sense of space and time was difficult for me for an annoyingly long time after abusing things like K or MXE. However I have demonstrated the same cat-like reflexes I had in the past since then, although other issues I attribute to things like ADD which developed late for me and remained hidden for various reasons.
I think the way the brain is affected from such dissociative use is largely reversible but perhaps for a small part much much less so. An example would be hyperpolarizable channels which appear to be responsible for ketamine's holing effects (and I similarly assume that other 2'-oxo arylcyclohexylamines share this affinity), my guess is that there happens something there which makes it so hard to truly hole again after a while while you can still get other effects.
It's possible there is something neurotoxical happening there if you accept your change = toxicity premise, but then it is really worth checking whether there is any indication of such neurological change actually having an impact on functioning whatsoever. This is a hard question but just as you are wildly going on reports, it would be equally valid to go on reports to be skeptical about neurological change meaning anything so serious.

Point is: I would warn people against ketamine even if I think neurotoxicity is a bit too big of a word in the context. The effects on functioning when you are using too much plus how addictive it is thus how likely that you will at some point be using too much if the conditions are right... those make me warn people.

I am still trying to peer through the ways people describe their history with K and other dissociatives but issues are not on the level of 'your brain is now damaged' like you might see with 4-MA or we are only just starting to piece together about NBOMe's. I don't have a good feeling about those or what they turn out to be and I am just happy I boycot the bastards after trying 2 of them.

But yeah, we will really have to be uncomfortably patient to wait what research shows us. Until then, yeah definitely warn people for plenty of fair reasons without necessarily mentioning neurotoxicity claims. ;)

take care bud
 
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Thanks everyone for their replies. The following is a response I received from Dr. David Nichols regarding the matter.

"The Ki only measures affinity, and it is a reversible process. A Ki of 0.04 just means that the dissociation off rate from the receptor is lower than the on rate. The receptor is NOT damaged by interaction with a high affinity agonist. 25i does not change the conformation of the receptors, and does not harm them. Your experiment with 25i has catalyzed the onset of a serious anxiety disorder, and it sounds as if you are also depressed. The 25i may have catalyzed that effect (as could LSD or any other psychedelic) but it did not damage or change your receptors.

You need to stop believing that you have done irreparable damage to your receptors. I keep telling you that, but it doesn’t seem to be sinking in. Your experiments did alter the way your brain works because now you have this anxiety disorder, but it has nothing to do with damaging your serotonin receptors or changing their conformation in some way. Have you seen a good psychiatrist? And if you have, were you completely honest about how this problem began? You need to be treated for your anxiety/depression quickly."

I guess it's settled, 25i is not neurotoxic but is toxic and should not be taken.
 
It doesn't matter now. Now you are living on. How much you got puncher hardly in your head? Staying in worry and bitter regret is whats messes your brain for sure.

Dk Yoo - the greatest martial artist of nowadays(like Bruce Lee of today), overcame brain surgery as kid, which messed tremendously his physical condition(I guess it damaged smth like body control center in the brain) . Proof
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giKxMcNzkeU
 
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Good to know there is no persistent conformational change, I guess serotonergic receptors are really very different from e.g. the heteromeric GABA A receptors.

I'd follow the above advice from Nichols ^ either way I'd like to hear if people who have gotten these sorts of problems after NBOMe use which seems to happen quite a bit more often than with say LSD or mushrooms, see a change from any anti-psychotic or anti-depressant 5-HT2A antagonist they might have gotten prescribed afterwards. Just curious...
 
That's cool Nichols took the time to write you such a personal and caring reply. :)
 
I'm quite sure he feels pretty personally responsible for everything NBOMe's have done to people... Not saying that at all to downplay how sympathetic his caring reply is. ;)
 
Hey Solipsis, so you think there is a possibility that the conformation of my 5ht2a receptors got altered due to the incredible potency/efficacy of the 25i NBOMe? I wish I never did research on them, I feel like my symptoms got worse after I did the research.

As to your point that "he feels personally responsible for everything NBOMe's have done to people..." This is the part that has been bothering me. What if he's just downplaying the fact that the conformation of the receptors weren't affected in order to provide a greater sense of hope for me.

Do you think I'll be fine? I have my whole life ahead of me.. I can't live with the thoughts that I might have permanently damaged my brain :(
 
I wish I never did research on them, I feel like my symptoms got worse after I did the research.

I can't live with the thoughts that I might have permanently damaged my brain :(

I've spent a lot of time in the MDMA abuse recovery threads and I have to say that the researching never really benefits anybody, in fact that is some people's primary problem.

In general the formula for recovery is

1. Practice mindfulness meditation and learn to apply it throughout the day

2. Cardio

3. See a psychiatrist

4. See a psychologist

5. Adjust diet - lower sugar intake and increase protein intake

6. Get lots of sleep, and learn mindfulness especially if you have insomnia

What I would advise you to become aware of is the rumination - constantly thinking about "brain damage" will definitely make you feel like you have brain damage.

Realistically, people who have never taken drugs get severe anxiety and depression all the time. Unfortunately people who get adverse effects after drugs tunnel vision on the drug as the cause and they assume that they can't recover, almost as though they feel that their condition is fundamentally different from someone else who got the same symptoms without ever taking drugs.


I'll add that receptors are internalized, broken down and made anew from scratch all the time. And I believe Solipsis was referring to altered subunit composition of GABA-A channels with long term benzo use, which wouldn't be applicable to 5-HT2A receptors.
 
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