I want my own species to light up in hellfire

[Flickering]

But how are you better? Just because you aren't directly involved doesn't mean you are innocent. Current government policy is in keeping with the desires of many australians. People voted for ruthless right wing shit whilst we did little to offer an alternative. As I said, there isn't really anything admirable or noble about pointing out problems. Its the rectifying them that is important.

Well, when slime like the Abbott government comes along, I recognise that these are horrible people and I try to persuade people not to get roped in by their crap. Whereas most people, apparently, vote FOR them. Which blows my mind. Seriously, it blows my damn mind.

I've been involved with activists, and I can say that in this day and age, there's hardly been a more frustrating and futile endeavour. Our governments kill and intern thousands of innocent people, we all know about it, and nobody wants to do anything. Eventually you come to the crushing realisation that you're just shouting at the top of your lungs in public and everyone wants you to shut up. When the political landscape is this skewed and people are this apathetic, what exactly are you supposed to do to offer an alternative? I could try to force this uphill struggle for the rest of my life but I'd be better off just belting a punching bag, at least it's more cathartic.

I may sound defeatist, but if you have a plan of action that can deal with the bipartisanship, extreme corruption and corporate interference, and the unchecked oppression of refugees, indigenous populations, the poor and third world nations, I will take to the street with it today if I think it works. Am I really just as bad as the lobbyists who look at this world as it is and their only critique with it is that their corporation doesn't have enough of the pie yet?

If we were just in a group of ordinary people, and one of them started treating the others the way that governments and corporations do, it would be unforgiveable. But because there are so many people and the guys at the top hide behind badges, guns and officiously signed documents, we think they have a right to commit five crimes against humanity before they've had their morning coffee. And most of us just fall in line and march to this shit. You and I are not the one shooting civilians, we're not the ones locking up little kids in detention camps, or letting them drown in the ocean.

If it's a pile of shit and all I'm doing is complaining about it, then most people are squatting down, adding their own shit to the pile, bathing in it and eating it. If all I'm doing amounts to calling everyone else copraphiles, well, at least someone's saying it.

The people saying I / we need to leave the city have the right of it. As it happens, I'm getting out of here in less than a week and I can't wait. Metropolitan life drives me out of my mind.

 

[murphythecat]

I get your feeling, truly.
but, when did it ever made you happy to feel anger?
never in my life did I got anything good from being mad. it always end up hurting the one who hates.
everytime you hate, judge, critic, you hurt yourself.

worst, everytime you hate, your not in this very precious moment. you think about something that happened in the past when you should be now trying to make yourself more pure.
inhumane stuff happens all the time, we cannot stop it all. its terrible. I particularly have a hard time the way we treat animals in our society. but I cannot change much.

you should be concentrated on mindfulness, meditation and purification. life is hard and dangerous. deal with it without hurting yourself in the process.

as long as anyone blame exterior situation for not being able to find peace and contentment right now, you wont find peace and contenment right now. all that maters is now. the past is lng gone, it serve nothign to think about it.

most people look outside of themselves when they should look deep inside because the problems ALWAYS comes from within.

.

 

[murphythecat]

not sure if I was clear enough.

1- dont believe every thought you have. you dont have to think anything that make you unhappy.

2- realize that no matter how wrong things are out there, they dont have to hurt you. They hurt you because you let your thoughts affect you.

thats not to say that things are perfect in the world, because they are not, but you are the one responsible if it affects your well being.

 

[swilow]

Well, when slime like the Abbott government comes along, I recognise that these are horrible people and I try to persuade people not to get roped in by their crap. Whereas most people, apparently, vote FOR them. Which blows my mind. Seriously, it blows my damn mind.

Likewise. Its a really sad state of affairs in Australia ATM. Abbott is a conservative narrow-minded idiot. But this is the system we have. You can only work within it. You don't have the right to impose your own utopia on others, so you have to figure out a way to live with the status quo.

I've been involved with activists, and I can say that in this day and age, there's hardly been a more frustrating and futile endeavour. Our governments kill and intern thousands of innocent people, we all know about it, and nobody wants to do anything. Eventually you come to the crushing realisation that you're just shouting at the top of your lungs in public and everyone wants you to shut up. When the political landscape is this skewed and people are this apathetic, what exactly are you supposed to do to offer an alternative? I could try to force this uphill struggle for the rest of my life but I'd be better off just belting a punching bag, at least it's more cathartic.

I have to ask how long and how deeply you have been involved in promoting an alternative. Are you sure that you are ready to give up? I really hope not. I think you are a very thoughtful and articulate guy; I've read your posts over several years now, in PD and elsewhere, and I consider you a good contributor. I think you owe the world your contribution.

Can you blame the apatheic majority who largely feel as powerless and disenfranchised as you? If you are ready to throw in the towel; perhaps a lot of people have reached and stepped over that point and so we are left with what we've got.

I may sound defeatist, but if you have a plan of action that can deal with the bipartisanship, extreme corruption and corporate interference, and the unchecked oppression of refugees, indigenous populations, the poor and third world nations, I will take to the street with it today if I think it works. Am I really just as bad as the lobbyists who look at this world as it is and their only critique with it is that their corporation doesn't have enough of the pie yet?

No, no you aren't as bad as those people. But simply pointing out problems is neutral. If I have 2 rocks and you point at a 3rd, I still only have 2 rocks. You have however provided a possible future in which I can have a 3rd rock if I choose. There is something fundamentally important about being a critic of the system. You are playing a vital role in trying to keep it honest.

Look at the 800 year old Magna Carta. This was an attempt by humans, 800 years ago, to create a more just world. I totally empathise and feel you in this realisation, but I urge you to realise that not only can you make a true difference, you are obligated to speak up unless you are willing to become like 'the state'. You cannot give in and retain integrity IMO.

The people saying I / we need to leave the city have the right of it. As it happens, I'm getting out of here in less than a week and I can't wait. Metropolitan life drives me out of my mind.

That is probably for the best. I can't recall what part of Australia you live in; I'm in Melbourne, but I live up in the 'mountains'- about 45 mins from the city, but still amongst trees, greenery and less people- which is great. Are you going bush or more regional?

 

[ForEverAfter]

I say give up.
At least, for a while.
You're not making a difference.
You're just hurting yourself.

I'm Australian and I, honestly, don't know who Abbot is.
If I walked past him on the street, I wouldn't recognize him.
I stopped paying attention to politics over 10 years ago.
I lose zero sleep - and zero brain cells - over it.

I also don't watch/read the news.

I think you are a very thoughtful and articulate guy; I've read your posts over several years now, in PD and elsewhere, and I consider you a good contributor. I think you owe the world your contribution.

No offense intend, willow, but this is nonsense.
His contribution doesn't mean anything, and neither does yours.
He doesn't owe the world shit. The world will remain essentially the same, without him.

I've been involved with activists, and I can say that in this day and age, there's hardly been a more frustrating and futile endeavour. Our governments kill and intern thousands of innocent people, we all know about it, and nobody wants to do anything. Eventually you come to the crushing realisation that you're just shouting at the top of your lungs in public and everyone wants you to shut up.

Agreed.
This is part of the path we travel.
There is no way to speed up change.
Things change at their own pace.
Everything takes time.

(At least some of) the so-called apathetic people have simply come to realize this.
I'm not apathetic. But, at the same time, I'm not pro-active.
Defeat is not a bad thing, necessarily.

Sometimes it's good to accept defeat, and accept your limitations.
The state of the world is NOT your responsibility...

The people who "want you to shut up" have a point.
Personally, I don't care either way. I'm just offering advice.
But, I can see why it is off-putting (for some) to preach change when you're doing nothing about it.

If you want to devote your life to contributing to a solution, then do so.
Accept the fact that you're not going to change the world, though.
You might achieve enough change to sleep at night.
But, like I said, I sleep fine.

Call me apathetic.


The government forces me to vote.
I just tick any old box, because it means nothing (to me).
I probably voted for Abbot, whoever that is... who knows?

 

[-=SS=-]

Look at the 800 year old Magna Carta. This was an attempt by humans, 800 years ago, to create a more just world. I totally empathise and feel you in this realisation, but I urge you to realise that not only can you make a true difference, you are obligated to speak up unless you are willing to become like 'the state'. You cannot give in and retain integrity IMO.

The problem we face, which gives rise to a whole spectrum of other problems, is our obsession with pleasure. It absolutely dominates our culture. The people of the past faced a lot of pain and tribulations, and that ultimately gets you thinking. Probably why those who spend ages meditating on pleasure simply spin their wheels while those fighting for growth actually grow.

Once you've started it is very difficult to go back. Face the pain. Fuck even trying to go back to a culture that does not give a shit about you. I've spent a long time pondering what can be done. We could come at this from so many different angles, but I always come back to the conclusion that the only way out of this is going inwards for understanding. No matter how good or how many great solutions we propose to change the way things are we will always be trumped by the shadows in peoples minds. Only when you can recognize the problem can you begin to tackle it.

You're in a bad environment and leaving it. Good. Get some breathing space. The city owes you nothing and you owe nothing to it either. You might be surprised by how it tries to pull you back though, through people you know. Something to meditate on..

 

[ForEverAfter]

Hating your own species so much that you desperately struggle to separate yourself from them, even though you recognize that it - the separation - is illusory (you called it "futile", Flickering); convincing yourself that you're better than everyone else: this is why people don't like activists.

The things is, you're not better than anyone else...
Don't let people re-enforce your delusion, in the process of concreting their own.

Although some people will try to convince you otherwise, these realizations that you've described are stepping stones towards of enlightenment... (Are monks apathetic?)

You are not better, or worse, than anyone.
You are more fortunate, perhaps. But you aren't better.
Don't take credit for the billions of years that lead to your development.
What happens in the world - and what happens in the universe - is not your responsibility.

Accept your fate.
Accept your limitations.
Accept the world for what it is.

You are beautiful. The word is beautiful.
Beating your head against a wall doesn't solve anything.

No, no you aren't as bad as those people.

Do those lobbyists exist?
Do we really know them?
Do we really know Flickering?
Are the lobbyists bad fathers/mothers?
Are they - the lobbyists - bad people... or are we just stereotyping them and hating them?

Flickering could be a sex offender, for all I know.
I'm certainly not going to re-assure him that he's "better" than anyone.
You can't grade people, against each other, from a distance.

It's spiritually/psychologically unhealthy to think you're better than someone else.
Categorizing populations into "bad" and "good" people is archaic.
Ironically, it causes most of the world's problems.

 

[-=SS=-]

It's spiritually/psychologically unhealthy to think you're better than someone else.
Categorizing populations into "bad" and "good" people is archaic.
Ironically, it causes most of the world's problems.

I would say this statement is not completely accurate. Good and bad, no.. but there is definitely a hierarchy of understanding or spiritual ladder. This doesn't make a person better or more "good" than another, just a reflection of how deep they have gone. And the state a person is in doesn't necessarily reflect in their outward projection, which includes their job position (though an enlightened person is unlikely to be CEO of Monsanto for example). People you might sneer at as deeply committed religious nuts might actually be further along than the ivory tower intellectual who can speak and reason fantastically but is just book smart. The point is don't judge people by their cover.

The anger and frustration is justified. You've been lied to. We all have. This is a world of liars and con men, everyone and everything is up for sale. And it fucking sucks knowing this. But you got to let go of that state and move forward.. use that energy to propel yourself forwards. Also part of the issue is that anger is your mind playing a trick on you.. it's hoping you won't embrace change and instead just fall back into the old way. Unfortunately even your own mind isn't necessarily on your side.

 

[swilow]

No offense intend, willow, but this is nonsense.
His contribution doesn't mean anything, and neither does yours.
He doesn't owe the world shit. The world will remain essentially the same, without him.

Perhaps "owe" is the wrong word, but if you see a problem and don't try to fix it, you can become a part of it. Resisting that and thinking for yourself is enough of a "contribution" I think. Clearly, we can contribute negatively to our planet; I think its illogical to say that we cannot also do something positive.

Of course, such idea's are subjective. Perhaps a positive for me would be all your deaths in fire and ruin.

Categorizing populations into "bad" and "good" people is archaic.
Ironically, it causes most of the world's problems.

I don't see any real harm in judging a person or a group of people by their behaviour and their motivations. In the case of people who push their own economic interests aggresively, to the detriment of innocent and uninvolved people, yes, I think they can be described as "bad", in the broad sense with which we use the term.

I do see harm in creating adversaries by labelling some random group as "bad". Such labelling can blind one to reason, if history speaks truth.

 

[ForEverAfter]

if you see a problem and don't try to fix it, you can become a part of it.

Sure. But, if you see a problem and don't try to fix it you can also not become part of it. We turn a blind-eye to all sorts of issues, on a daily basis. The fact that you're using a computer, means you're doing it right now. By using electricity are you part of the problem? Sure. But, you're not going to stop using it, are you? So, accept your place as "part of the problem"... People have a tendency to be outraged by the world, while continuing to contribute to it. They live their entire lives feeling guilty for eating meat, using electricity... yet they continue to do it. And, this only causes pain... The fact is that you're not capable of reversing the global situation. You'd be better off specializing.

Personally, I'm okay with being "part of the problem".
I've come to terms with who we are.
I don't think we're broken.
The world is fine.

thinking for yourself is enough of a "contribution" I think. Clearly, we can contribute negatively to our planet; I think its illogical to say that we cannot also do something positive.

I don't think we can contribute negatively to the planet, though.
As individuals, we can't dent the momentum of history and human nature.
If we are going to survive as a species, so be it. But, it's not up to us to decide.
So many people take on the weight of the world. It's a bit silly, I think.

We're too critical of ourselves.
Everything has a function, of course.
We can't all just sit around and say, "fuck it".
I'm not suggesting we stop thinking about things.
But, thinking negative thoughts (like the OP is) isn't helpful.
We shouldn't encourage him to continue, in that way.
It's better to think about it in another way.

In this life, you will do what you can. Don't beat yourself up if you're not saving the world.
We shouldn't compare ourselves to history's heroes, because we are not them.
People are so riddled with guilt and shame. We're so tormented.
Everything is blown way out of proportion.

Functionally, somebody has to stress about this shit.
I'm glad, I guess, that isn't me.

By recognizing a problem and not attempting to fix it, I'm not becoming part of the problem.
That's crazy.

Are you a crusader for women's rights and gay rights and transgender rights?
Do you house as many refugees and homeless people as you can?
There isn't enough time in a single life to fix the world's problems.

In the case of people who push their own economic interests aggresively, to the detriment of innocent and uninvolved people, yes, I think they can be described as "bad", in the broad sense with which we use the term.

They should not be described as bad.
You can describe their actions as bad, and I won't object.
But labeling people good and bad is problematic.

If you tell a rapist they are bad, then they will believe it and continue to re-offend.
It's been shown, repeatedly, that it's a much better approach to reason with them.

There isn't something inherently wrong with a murderer, either... In fact, society perpetuating the idea that there is something wrong with them may have lead them to murder in the first place.

If you do bad things, and you accept that some people are bad and others are good, you start to realize that you're bad. And, potentially, you accept it and act accordingly.

The question is continually asked: how people can act like monsters?

The funny thing is, they act like monsters because we make them think they're monsters by asking how they can act like monsters.

Our entire framework is ass-backwards.

I object to the justice system.
I object to labeling people "good" and "bad".

Like Abbot. I've heard his name before.
Most people I encounter don't watch the news or give a fuck about politics, but some do.
My brother has complained about Abbot... calling him horrible names, saying he should die.
Really, we don't know that much about him. Just what the media tells us.
Personally, I'm not willing to condemn a man because TV tells me to.
The way people treat politicians is downright disgusting.

George Bush wasn't great on camera.
He wasn't the smartest guy in the world.
Basically, he was an easy target (for lynch-mob hatred).
If you compare Bush Sr.'s presidency to G.W.Bush's presidency, who wins?
I'm not great on camera, either. But that doesn't mean Tom Cruise would make a better leader.

And Abbot might make bad decisions, but we learn from bad decisions.
People might murder each other, but we learn from murder.
Again, everything has a function.
He is contributing, like it or not.
Everybody contributes, all the time.
You can't not contribute.

Don't presume to know enough about our place in the universe that you can - with any degree of accuracy - separate those who do contribute from those who don't. You may see the positive changes that are caused by one man's actions and not see the positive changes that occur from another.

The holocaust showed us just how far we can go.
It serves as a warning.

We cannot see the good that has come from it, directly. But that doesn't mean that Hitler didn't contribute towards our future and - paradoxically - the security of the human race.

Likewise, making bad decisions doesn't make Abbot a bad person.
It is wrong to call him a bad person, but that doesn't make you a bad person either.
The action of labeling people good and bad is bad. But, there are no bad people.

I do see harm in creating adversaries by labelling some random group as "bad". Such labelling can blind one to reason, if history speaks truth.

Indeed, yet we continue to do it.
Is this a case of recognizing a problem and not fixing it, perhaps?

there is definitely a hierarchy of understanding or spiritual ladder

Maybe so. But it is problematic to label someone spiritually advanced and (by implication) someone else spiritually retarded...

Buddha has become a God.
A lot of Buddhists treat his teachings like gospel.
It is better to think of him as just a man.
Same thing goes for Jesus.

 

[Flickering]

Oddly, though you all raise excellent points, I find myself at a loss for what to add to the discussion at this point. Tried to reply to everyone line by line, but I found myself writing in circles and not saying much at all.

Ultimately, this resonates the most:

The anger and frustration is justified. You've been lied to. We all have. This is a world of liars and con men, everyone and everything is up for sale. And it fucking sucks knowing this. But you got to let go of that state and move forward.. use that energy to propel yourself forwards. Also part of the issue is that anger is your mind playing a trick on you.. it's hoping you won't embrace change and instead just fall back into the old way. Unfortunately even your own mind isn't necessarily on your side.

It's normal and natural to feel this way towards the situation we've been presented with.

But it's also self-induced pain to be in that state, and you'll live a better life if you can accept your circumstances and stop reacting to them so violently.

In other words, you have the freedom to empower yourself. That's what I've been struggling with all year long.

 

[socko]

....Also part of the issue is that anger is your mind playing a trick on you.. it's hoping you won't embrace change and instead just fall back into the old way. Unfortunately even your own mind isn't necessarily on your side.

This comment got me thinking too. I don't think I've thought of it like that before.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I had the same struggle, for years, Flickering. Back and forth.
The vegetarian thread on P&S finally pushed me over the edge.
Initially, I thought I was righteous for promoting vegetarianism.
The question was asked: do we (vegetarians) think we're better than meat eaters?
And although I avoided answering "yes" I realize now, it was clear that we did claim superiority.

My mother is over 60 years old...
She's not going to stop eating meat, no matter what anyone says.
Is that wrong? Or is that just the way it is?
Is it wrong to eat meat?
Is she a bad person?

Am I, in any way, better than someone who doesn't have vegan tendencies?
Or are we just transitioning from "wrong" to "right"?
Does it have to happen overnight?
When will we be satisfied?

But it's also self-induced pain to be in that state, and you'll live a better life if you can accept your circumstances and stop reacting to them so violently.

Indeed. I highly encourage you to take this path.
I no longer care about other people's actions. Only my own.
And I feel MUCH better for it.

...

Sorry if I'm rambling, people.

 

[-=SS=-]

Indeed. I highly encourage you to take this path.
I no longer care about other people's actions. Only my own.
And I feel MUCH better for it.

All I would add to this is that it shouldn't be a resignation to conditions in the sense you turn a blind eye to things. One should still take an interest in politics of the home nation and be informed, for example. You never know, it might just save your life by allowing you to see what's coming.. or to plan for the best conditions for future children or something.

But yeh.. this is a manure pile basically. It's not a nice realization to acknowledge truthfully when you're conditioned by parents, education and culture to accept the opposite conclusion. These people have a vested interest. They need children to participate.. to get jobs, serve them and pay taxes. I'm still dealing with the anger, frustration and depressive feelings surrounding this.. and the knowledge that my generation (I'm 28 ) is being royally shafted by our own parents generation.. and no one does anything! I smoked cannabis for a long time as a form of escapism and thought of killing myself every now and then because of all of this (I still do). And that way is fairly logical, like your anger too.. the situation looks pretty hopeless, because it is. We're pissing into the wind as they say.

The way I figure my own life now is to orientate myself towards an inward journey of discovery as I don't see much else for me to do. Depending on what your values are I would use that anger to set yourself a positive direction for you.. whether that be self-discovery, mastery over a passion or pursuit, raising a balanced family. You got to see that the anger is you spinning your wheels and the 'system' acting through your mind to get you all frustrated so that you cave in and go back to a life of quiet dissipation, instead of breaking away.

 

[murphythecat]

@foreverafter: I agree with everything youve said here and second everything. I really like your realist and straight to the point opinion. no fluff.

the feeling superior issue is a big problem, just like people who feel inferior all the time. its both extreme that creates inner wars. I also used to be like that, now I do my best to be humble and do everything I can to make people I realize feel inferior equal. nobody is special, we are all equal.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Cheers, murphy.

 

[tantric]

when i was still pissing around with meth and opiates, everyday i'd wake up and think: i hate the human race, each and every one, specifically and individually. now that i'm off that, just pot and dxm, i kinda like people.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I love DXM. It's a seriously under-rated drug. I think I might have some tomorrow.
Although, I have to say, meth/opiates don't cause people to hate themselves/others (IMO).
I know a lot of self-hating stoners.

I used to hate the human race, no matter what drug I was on (including MDMA).
Now, I don't hate the human race regardless of drugs or the lack thereof.

Do you think now that you like people, you'd dislike them if you returned to amphetamines/opiates? I don't know your story but I'm tempted to assume that you were abusing these drugs and that the withdrawals and depression that resulted from your abuse caused you to lash out at the world (and yourself).

Drugs aren't bad.
Heroin isn't a bad drug.
It can be misused, sure.
But, it's not bad (IMO).
Neither is alcohol.

 

[swilow]

I feel like opiates put up a sort of membrane between yourself and the rest of existence. Things penetrate slowly and incompletely. I felt like I woke from a long sleep after I got clean and wondered where my life had gone.

You cannot live and not contribute. If you don't make a judgement on things, if you stay passive, I think you are contributing negativity rather then neutrality. I find fence-sitters and politically-correct blowhards to be fucking annoying. Speak your mind or fuck off. Take a stance, don't be weak, defend it. The world simply doesn't contain the elements of right and wrong and good and evil. (It says something that we invented those qualities). Their non existence makes condemning the bad and upholding good even more important, IMO. When i woke up, I didn't want to be a victim and submit. There are things that are wrong with the world, that ought to be changed. Its a given that the first place to start is inside. After you repair inside, the rest is immaterial. The inside changes the out. Is anyone living for anyone else? How could they?

Side note, what is wrong with doing evil? With taking what you want? How does it matter? Why do you matter? I think if that is described, perhaps something worth living for might emerge.

Blah. Scatter'd

 

[Ninae]

I don't really understand your question. I think evil is just anything that is harmful to yourself or others, which both have unpleasent consequences, so it's a good idea to avoid it because of that.

Just to give an example, my uncle was really wild and used to party and fight all the time when he was young. He didn't work or take care of his kids, stay faithful to his women, or anything. It was fun while it lasted, but he ended up in a wheelchair when he was 29 and is now alone and hardly sees any of his children.

While my dad was a different type and didn't care for fighting, etc. and is very good at keeping himself out of trouble and others if he can (no one's perfect but he has done his best and saved my life many times). So the consequences alone I think is a good reason for it and it's a bit insane to suggest anything else.