How is PCP different from classical psychedelics?

[TheBlackPirate]

As DerDiebKommt already pointed out, PCP is a dissociative ("NMDA antagonist"), not a classic psychedelic ("serotonin agonist").

Besides its dissociative action, PCP also seems to agonize certain dopamine receptors, as well as inhibit the reuptake of dopamine. The latter would make the drug more compulsive and stimulating, and could, over time, lead to psychosis, which would be further amplified by the direct dopamine receptor agonism.

I didn't realize how addictive PCP was. I only consume classical psychedelics and those are non-addictive. Perhaps the the fact PCP is addictive results in the increased violence associated with PCP consumption mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

[burn out]

No. Maybe we could rename it Psychedelic and Dissociative Drugs. There's no real no need to spilt them up... Also for a guy who claims to not be biased you often sound pretty biased...! When a person reads Psychedelic Drugs, I'd have to assume they think Psychedelic Drugs, then maybe about the psychedelic drugs they know, then maybe nuances they know about PD's. Your making it sound like dissociatives aren't safe...while like any chemical class, some are safer, and some aren't as safe. You meant not have meant it like that, that's how I read it though, so disregard if it wasn't meant like that....

Also the OD preamble,
Other Drugs (OD) is designed for discussion of the queries regarding other drugs (ie not psychadelics or MDMA) not covered by the following two forums:

Basic Drug Discussion (BDD): as the name suggests, basic drug Qs. The next post will soon cover examples of material suited for BDD
Advanced Drug Discussion (ADD): chemistry-related and more science based course, discussion of novel compounds etc etc

Obviously OD covers a broad range of topics since it lumps in what is not included by BD and ADD. However, a lot of the material being posted can be found with very little effort on the original poster's part (OP). Questions such as:
* If I take suboxone 12 hours after taking heroin will I go into preciptated withdrawals?
* I have a 160mg oxycodone tolerance, will 50mg hydrocodone get me high?
* Does anyone notice the difference between brand names and generics?

All these questions have been answered countless times before, and it is for that reason that unless you cannot find the answer through searching, we will not be going over the same material ad nauseum. Of course if you have something new to add to a topic, then that is encouraged. But the repetitive, easy to research answers will not be answered just because people are too lazy to search themselves. Of course if you cant find an answer after searching, then ask away.

The mods are not trying to be a rule-Nazis here, but this needs to be done to maintain the high posting standards of OD, so over the next few weeks, I will be reminded everyone what belongs here and what doesnt. I will be putting clear notices on why something is moved or why a thread is closed. If you have an issue PM me directly, do not start a new thread!

Take care guys,

djsim

Plus if we put it in OD a lot of the threads would be lost in the fray of random drug questions. This forum has essentially been the safe in terms of layout since I first started visiting in 06. Not that some things don't need updating ocassionally!

Really though there's like twenty times the amount of psychedelic threads than dissociatives, their simply becoming more popular. Maybe we could make a dissociative sub forum though.

The way bluelight organizes its forums has never made much sense to me. I once suggested the idea of having a separate forum for each class or kind of drug, but it was shot down because apparently "that would make too many forums". But I have actually been on other sites that organize themselves that way and I liked the layout because it means you don't have to UTFSE nearly as often. If for example, you want to see all threads on dissociatives, you just head over to the dissociatives forum. No need to search, unless you are looking for very specific info. It works especially well for the substances that aren't discussed too frequently, as it keeps all their related threads in one place instead of scattered around requiring multiple searches of multiple forums to locate (especially since many drugs have more than one name as well as slang (ei, vicodin, hydrocodone and norco can all be refering to the same pill) and older threads remain on the front page longer thus gaining more replies and information from people who ordinarily would not see them were they 30 pages back. It feels much more like a database that way.

Not that I am saying bluelight should change to that, as I've gotten used to things the way they are but I am just pointing out I don't think it makes much sense.

 

[Fizicks]

I didn't read all the reponses but I'll give a first hand reasoning as to why on an experience level they are totally different. Psychedelics for the most part enhance or add to visuals coming in from the optic nerve while the stronger ones really produce their own sets of visuals and highs. The difference for me is we have all done a mushroom or acid trip so picture that. That's a psychedelic. There is a certain sense of awareness even if everything is "tripped out".

PCP is a dissociative as mentioned and in my case had me forget not only my name, but that I had a name, who and where I was yet it all seemed normal b/c in my head I was in this magical dream like world where none of that was real. This is when my legs stopped working and dragged myself soldier style out of the bathroom (pants up thankfully lol) and yelled at my friend to "TURN THE FUCKING STEREO DOWN" over and over (lying on the floor) but the stereo wasn't on haha but the air conditioner was so I got him to turn that down. I fell asleep in the fetal position on the floor in my living room.I'd stay away from pcp honestly.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

^I didn't say my opinion was dissociatives aren't psychedelics I said:



This is true. Look at the first definition of psychedelic from merriam-webster dictionary on-line:


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Psychedelic


The colloquial usage of the word psychedelic and common understanding of the word psychedelic most people have references classical serotonergic psychedelics. Sure people with an esoteric focus debate if dissociatives fit in this category. The important thing is considering the perspective of uninformed first time users seeking harm reduction information. Those novice users consider "psychedelics" classical psychedelics such as LSD. Clarification is important because the risks of using each drug group are vastly different as are the necessary precautions in staying safe.

That was a very incomplete definition of psychedelic honestly:

The psychedelic is a concept the name of which is derived from the Ancient Greek words psychē (ψυχή, "soul") and dēloun (δηλοῦν, "to make visible, to reveal"), translating to "mind-revealing".

Psychedelic drug (also known as a psychedelic substance or simply a psychedelic), a psychoactive drug whose primary action is to alter cognition and perception.

That defines pretty accurately what disso's do I think.
Also I couldn't agree with you more about how the Laymen understands psychadelics:

A layperson (also layman or laywoman) is defined as either a non-ordained member of a church, or a person who is not qualified in a given profession and/or does not have specific knowledge of a certain subject.

A whole lot of dissociatives are certainly psychedelic and in my opinion K and MXE are up there with DMT.

And Yes, PCP certainly is addictive and unpredictable... Like you chose the the most sinister dissociative to use as an example against to compare against classical psychedelics?!?! That's just brutally unfare.
Btw LSD has certainly been responsible for it's share of violent freak outs... There are threads on bluelight about such incidence. I know I've talked on them.

 

[TheBlackPirate]

And Yes, PCP certainly is addictive and unpredictable... Like you chose the the most sinister dissociative to use as an example against to compare against classical psychedelics?!?!

Go look through my comments. I didn't utilize PCP as an example of every dissociative once, you made the example. My goal with this thread was discussing the cause of PCP being associated with increases in violence while classical psychedelics are associated with decreases in the same violent acts.

PCP was simply the chemical mentioned in the medical journal.

...and looking at the evidence from the medical journal above classical psychedelics are really associated with more peaceful behavior overall.

 

[JackARoe]

I did read the whole thread, I had some time off this week and could browse. The original question and post title can be answered in many ways from pharmacological to mental to physical effects. The pharmacological have been noted many times. So I think my answer will remain in the realm of my personal opinion.

I am a live and let live person, and I think any and all substances can have beneficial as well as detrimental effects depending on many factors. But I will just list the reasons I believe they are different. I also keep in mind drugs like brugmansia and jimson weed can be made beneficial by a very small number of people and most find them a detriment. But some experienced shamans (shall we say) can utilize them and bring things back. I feel the same way about the dissociative class of drugs. Only a few people seem to know how to utilize and bring the wisdom back. Others get locked into a stubborn addiction under the guise of gaining enlightenment.

So here is how I think they are different: First off for me dissociatives cut me off from the physical world striping me of my emotions and fear. I personally use my emotions as a GPS, I think in a way we all do. They steer us in different directions. But when I tried ketamine some time back I had no emotions or fear. So the drug took me. I also believe the psychedelic 60's that was created through LSD could not have been created with a dissociative like PCP. Again the reason being only a few people know how to work with them. I don't believe the art and music of that era could have come about because of PCP. The new age stuff, interest in mediation and yoga and Eastern Spirituality came from LSD, mushrooms and such. I am not sure if all we had was PCP if that era could have even happened. All those psychedelic rock bands emerged from the psychedelic 60's because of LSD. Dissociatives seem to be newer and more synthetic. Although I am sure in time we will find some natural dissociatives.

I have a few friends that use to use psychedelics that are addicted to dissociatives now and the physical effects are apparent. I really don't see them much anymore, but one time I had to give a friend a ride who had to stop 3 times on a one hour ride to pee because of his constant ketamine use. He also thinks he is fine, so I think with some dissociatives there is a level of denial. His mental capacity is different too, and all the long and wise conversations we use to have are down to one liners because only he understands his personal ketamine revelations. The insights are not transferable (at least by him) to others and he does seem like he is in his own little world. I am not against ketamine, but damn I wish this guy would take a look at himself and heal the body and mind. Occasional use would have been better.

Hey, I am all for fun. It has been a while since I took N2O while on acid, but wow was that fun. I do not rule that out. Ketamine gave me 3 insightful trips before turning into a regular fuzzy feel good drug. I could not stay in that state of mind and the pristine clarity of coming down from a psychedelic was not there. I was left nauseous, fuzzy and confused on subsequent ketamine sessions. So I shelved the whole idea after about 15 sessions at different dosages.

Anyway, there is my opinion. I have opinions on what I will put into my own body but also respect what others want to do. So more power to the people that can utilize and write about dissociative sessions. Some people at Bluelight write up some great reports and I look forward to reading them. But for me I think of my friend who is going to lose his job and wife (as well as bladder) if he does not stop using ketamine like heroin. And the part that saddens me is he can not see how out of whack he is. So self reflection may go out the window with dissociative abuse.

If anyone considers Salvia a dissociative then it is one I like and utilize. I do forget who and where I am on the peak, but come out refreshed and pristine after the session is over. I wonder what we will find in Nature in the future. Could be interesting.

 

[MSK]

I see more violence from alcohol users than from dissociative users. Maybe a newbie would freak out but dissos are all peace on the mind for me. Stop taking as the truth every urban legend spread by the media

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

I didn't read all the reponses but I'll give a first hand reasoning as to why on an experience level they are totally different. Psychedelics for the most part enhance or add to visuals coming in from the optic nerve while the stronger ones really produce their own sets of visuals and highs. The difference for me is we have all done a mushroom or acid trip so picture that. That's a psychedelic. There is a certain sense of awareness even if everything is "tripped out".
PCP is a dissociative as mentioned and in my case had me forget not only my name, but that I had a name, who and where I was yet it all seemed normal b/c in my head I was in this magical dream like world where none of that was real. This is when my legs stopped working and dragged myself soldier style out of the bathroom (pants up thankfully lol) and yelled at my friend to "TURN THE FUCKING STEREO DOWN" over and over (lying on the floor) but the stereo wasn't on haha but the air conditioner was so I got him to turn that down. I fell asleep in the fetal position on the floor in my living room.I'd stay away from pcp honestly.

"PCP is a dissociative as mentioned and in my case had me forget not only my name, but that I had a name, who and where I was yet it all seemed normal b/c in my head I was in this magical dream like world where none of that was real."
Yeah well, LSD ( and most psychedelics in fact )certainly can do that to too.
Look into what happens as dosages of classical psychedelics approach ego death.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

I didn't realize how addictive PCP was. I only consume classical psychedelics and those are non-addictive. Perhaps the the fact PCP is addictive results in the increased violence associated with PCP consumption mentioned earlier in this thread.

Actually you are directly comparing PCP to all classical psychedelics right here.
Edit:
In fact the very title and purpose of this thread is to make such a comparison.
Maybe you should re-read the very title of your own thread.
It doesn't matter if your quoting a journal. You are making the comparison in this thread BY quoting it.

 

[Help?!?!]

Actually you are directly comparing PCP to all classical psychedelics right here.
Edit:
In fact the very title and purpose of this thread is to make such a comparison.
Maybe you should re-read the very title of your own thread.
It doesn't matter if your quoting a journal. You are making the comparison in this thread BY quoting it.

Yeah, plus as far as I know dissociatives are only mentally addictive which is really fairly different than physical addiction in a sense.

 

[TheBlackPirate]

Ballz_Trippington,

How does your most recent comment relate with the text from me quoted in the comment?

 

[treezy z]

PCP turned me into an animal, I used to love that shit, I'm clean now because I can't handle PCP without wilin out and it's the only drug (besides other dissociatives) that hit the spot for me.

for years I said to myself "i can get high as long as I don't get into dissociatives" because they turn me into mr. hyde but i don't like any other drugs, dissociatives plus weed everything else is boring. so i always ended up on them jumping out of my chair as soon as they kicked in yelling "LET's GET IT!!!"

fuck drugs don't do PCP

 

[treezy z]

I see more violence from alcohol users than from dissociative users. Maybe a newbie would freak out but dissos are all peace on the mind for me. Stop taking as the truth every urban legend spread by the media

PCP made me go buckwild (non-violently) but I can see how one would become violent on them. the one time i did get violent I was sent to a forensic hospital (prison psych ward) because the cops show up I'm talking about the demons in my brain controlling my actions and shit.

dxm and k chilled me out.

 

[Solipsis]

PCP turned me into an animal, I used to love that shit, I'm clean now because I can't handle PCP without wilin out and it's the only drug (besides other dissociatives) that hit the spot for me.

for years I said to myself "i can get high as long as I don't get into dissociatives" because they turn me into mr. hyde but i don't like any other drugs, dissociatives plus weed everything else is boring. so i always ended up on them jumping out of my chair as soon as they kicked in yelling "LET's GET IT!!!"

fuck drugs don't do PCP

Did it go anything like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9SCFkhGKp8

?

Also its possible the violence on alcohol is from its dissociative effect? Well plus the disinhibition... And MANY more people use alcohol than dissos like these, so that skews the perspective.

I know the urban legends but I also found things like what happened to that guy on MXP killing his mother in the UK reminding me of it. But yeah fortunately it doesn't seem to happen often in terms of violence, but on the other hand I've never heard/read about so many trainwrecks with people going nuts (getting frostbite, evicted etc), highly respectable people, as from drugs like diphenidines and PCP derivatives. That's not urban myth, that's recorded fact so to speak from here on this forum alone.

K might be too anaesthetic and immobilizing vs stimulation to really do that typically, and DXM similarly... but not all dissociatives are so forgiving. I really like 3-MeO-PCP but I also fear its potential at too high a dose. Benign mania / hypomania is as high as I went with drugs like that, doing things like DIY building stuff shopping wood way too enthousiastically... and I am really thankful that so far I am not one of the guys who had 'episodes'...

Classical psychedelics can also go very wrong, but mind-bending chaos does different things than pretty much undermining your whole ability to think or make decisions.

 

[MSK]

Did it go anything like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9SCFkhGKp8

?

Also its possible the violence on alcohol is from its dissociative effect? Well plus the disinhibition... And MANY more people use alcohol than dissos like these, so that skews the perspective.

I know the urban legends but I also found things like what happened to that guy on MXP killing his mother in the UK reminding me of it. But yeah fortunately it doesn't seem to happen often in terms of violence, but on the other hand I've never heard/read about so many trainwrecks with people going nuts (getting frostbite, evicted etc), highly respectable people, as from drugs like diphenidines and PCP derivatives. That's not urban myth, that's recorded fact so to speak from here on this forum alone.

K might be too anaesthetic and immobilizing vs stimulation to really do that typically, and DXM similarly... but not all dissociatives are so forgiving. I really like 3-MeO-PCP but I also fear its potential at too high a dose. Benign mania / hypomania is as high as I went with drugs like that, doing things like DIY building stuff shopping wood way too enthousiastically... and I am really thankful that so far I am not one of the guys who had 'episodes'...

Classical psychedelics can also go very wrong, but mind-bending chaos does different things than pretty much undermining your whole ability to think or make decisions.

Well, that's it, they were violent episodes "induced by drugs" with nearly any drug I can think about. I saw people crazy violent on alcohol, on cocaine, even on MDMA. I think drugs bring out the worse from people. So, if you are already a violent guy, with the disinhibition + stimulation of some substances will be a big chance of unchaining the kraken.

For myself, a really introvert, antisocial, but peaceful guy, any drug led me to those kind of episodes in my life. And I can assure you I binged hard on alcohol, all kind of dissos and psychedelics, and stimulants.

 

[Solipsis]

Not really, I did mention 'victims' including plenty being respectable people around here who also report on a lot of other stuff. Not saying that means I know them, but it seems enough to say it's unlike them - no scratch that, it means I believe them when they more or less say that themselves.

Nobody is immune to something like that happening just by being a non-aggressive person, please don't delude yourself. We all are wired to have certain impulses. This has nothing to do with how good we normally are at keeping them checked but what happens to anyone when a drug unchecks those impulses.

Sure, there are people who are unusually sensitive to e.g. get violent on those drugs you mention, but those involve only or mostly the disinhibition part and not really the dissociation (well yeah apart from alcohol which also dissociates a bit). But that some people are more sensitive than others is a distraction from the propensities of PCP when just taken above a certain dosage. Not all drugs have the same 'error margin' by a long shot... with some of them it's specifically hard to get into trouble with and with other drugs its the opposite.

I like dissociatives but I don't overly defend them because of my preferences. The idea that you are above it, taken from the fact that yes not everyone is equally resistent or volatile etc... that is the kind of very human hubris that probably led some of these respectable people to 'lose themselves'.. Well no hubris is kind of judgmental, I don't think there is a big blame on the person. If there is any blame, it's on some of these drugs, realizing that certain kinds of dissociatives are not forgiving if you try to (or accidentally) 'hole' on it too hard like on Ket, and you - anyone - can lose themselves, regressing to modes of being we like to deny all having in our programming.

I don't believe that the reason I am not one who victimized himself, not yet at least, with PCP-like drugs, is because I am a peaceful person.. but because what I learn about these drugs makes me *that* cautious. Fair enough, I should confess that I eyeball, but I don't eyeball AND try to get 'full strength' trips. Only times I dosed even in that full strength trip range, I definitely weighed.

As for the OP:

Psychedelics expand consciousness and awareness while dissociatives rather reduce awareness while in that reduced state our inner consciousness reflects on itself. I think psychedelic reduction in aggression / violence and increase in compassion comes from expanded lucid consciousness dissolving miscommunications, dissonance, misunderstanding all of which are breeding grounds for anger. On dissociatives instead things can get very skewed: emotions are placid but blunted, and some impulses stop while others are apparently set loose.. that seems conductive to first restriction to the rational and then something more primal.

These experiences may share feelings of pureness and unity, but behaviorally and realistically the outcomes can obviously be very different.

 

[phuckingnutz]

How do you believe it should be consumed then? I know people who snorted it as they were told it was synthetic THC in the 70s and they said how they almost passed out from the PCP, and they did not even use that much of it.

I grew up in an area where PCP is common. I've never used it and never want to; but most people just smoke it, or smoke it in a large or small group of people. Nobody I knew who has ever used it became violent or went crazy like you see on youtube videos or read about in the media. This includes people who used small, moderate, and even large/extremely large doses of the drug.

I used sell/do copious quantities (ounces over the years) of "T" (PCP) and it was usually smoked or snorted.
I heard many stories about it as well as "studies" which were conducted by nefarious Gov. Organizations, but never saw or experienced any of the violent proclivities, supposedly, associated with it, but I did feel the after effects for several years after stopping.
We used to call it "getting small" because of the way it makes you feel like your legs are similar to two little pegs...K, 3-meo-PCP and MXE do this too, but to a lesser extent. Never tried "wet" to compare with the stuff we got from the Veterinarian or "cook" though.
An average dose of strong PCP was, probably, between 20-40 mg. we'd get 15-20 "dimes" out of a gram and a "dime" so called for the cost(10 bucks) would incapacitate even the hardest of the hardcore for several hours.

 

[Help?!?!]

Damn dude those are whopper doses! A strong dose is ten+ while common is about five.

 

[Solipsis]

Pegs for legs sounds like the effect these disso's are claimed to have on proprioception, which might reset sensations or pains of phantom limbs mentioned in that vice interview..

It's not *that* familiar sounding but then again I don't use those whopper dosages.

 

[phuckingnutz]

Damn dude those are whopper doses! A strong dose is ten+ while common is about five.

Well, back in "the day", we didn't use scale so much. We measured our dimes with a McDonalds spoon...one level spoon was a dime...IF you were doing people right and I generally did.
Also, we had no idea how strong the doses were except from word of mouth from others prior to us or from our own experimentation.
HR wasn't even a concept to me in the 70's...just wanted to get as fucked up as humanly possible...i wasn't the exception either. My behavior, in our circle, was the rule.
Can't believe I'm alive today to tell the tale...many of us aren't any more.
So those dosages are just extrapolated from how many dimes in a gram.