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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

Opioids Heroin - At 60 days and still withdrawing... am I alone?

tweakette said:
I hit 60 days today and it never freaking ends.... I honestly can’t take it anymore mentally or financially. I can’t function what so ever or work so my shit is just falling apart. It’s not PAWS either....I would be mentally great if I didn’t feel so awful physically.

I can’t sleep without Xanax. I get the chills all day, I’m freezing, I get goosebumps to the point I feel like turning inside out. i am always soaked in sweat and freezing. I sneeze all day long, my nose runs randomly. My eyes water in morning and I yawn. I still have gastro issues, everything goes right through me.

Then the worst symptom of all, the reason I can’t sleep and I wake up all night and can’t work is because my body just endlessly aches so bad. I get random twinges of pain too. My joints hurt so bad.... I wake up at 6am every morning and have to jump on hot Epsom salt bath so I don’t off myself because it just hurts so damn bad.

I feel like I’m all alone in this. People keep telling me it’s something else (even though it happened when I stopped heroin, and it’s withdrawal symptoms)... The doctors are useless... they tell me they don’t know why I still feel this way but everything else comes back normal.

I just need to know when it will end, at least the body aches for the love of god. I can deal with everything else. Has this happened to anyone else???

Same thing happened to me in 2016 when I quit I made it only 94 days before I said enough is enough. The withdrawals never ended then until the 94th day..... when I ended them....
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Kratom
 
Kratom is replacing one addiction for another 8)
It's nice in a pinch if you're going through WDs because you ran out of whatever you're taking before, but at the end of the day it still tickles the opiate receptors, and therefore should be treated as such. I'm certain there are many tales on this board of people that used kratom for taper or withdrawal purposes, and ended up dependant on it instead.
 
Deru said:
They most certainly can, a nurse in a doctor's office may have difficulties, but not a trained phlebotomist. And if that fails, ultrasound will 100% be able to obtain blood. I deal with these issues constantly myself as all my major superficial veins are permanently collapsed and gone, it's annoying for sure.



I'm aware, it was just an exaggeration of how we are quick to justify unknown causes as withdrawals. A better, more applicable example, would be how we can think we're in severe withdrawals when a lot of it is just contributed to being starving or malnourished.



A couple things, if it is withdrawal related, it would be PAWS verus acute withdrawals. A large component and difference between acute withdrawals and post acute withdrawals is just the time frame. By 60 days, your body has completely eliminated the drug long ago, which is the reason for the distinction. It's just a biological and physiological certainty due to the drug's pharmacodynamics.

The other issue is that opioids treat symptoms. Your symptoms of an underlying issue may be minor enough to allow the opioids to allow complete cessation of symptoms, in this case, it's not binary but incredibly complex with many inter-connected variables.

With all that said, it's not impossible to be a post acute withdrawal issue solely, just not an acute withdrawal issue.

Edit: You just said if you forget to take Percocet at night you feel horrible, if you are using opioids recently, then it would be acute withdrawals and that changes everything. I may be missing something here, but if you're taking Percocet, you haven't been clean from opioids for 60 days - or did you just recently start taking them to deal with the symptoms?
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Also, no, phlebotomists cannot get my blood. Lol... My insurance doesn’t cover ultrasound and the place has no vein finders. I have to go through weeks and weeks of fighting with my insurance company and they force me to go to a bunch of blood places that bruise me up to high hell, before they finally let me go to hospital to get ultrasound to get blood (and this was only because I was high risk pregnancy and had advocate in my side, so they def won’t now). I don’t have the money to pay out of pocket... I can’t work at the moment I’m so fucking sick.

i don’t know I never heard of that tiny amount completely curing someone. I mean I took .25 of subs for years and never had any other medical issues or problems, I felt like a mostly normal person. Even gave birth to a child with no withdrawl and had complete testing done on me. So I don’t know how in 2 years I got a condition. im not saying it’s not a small tiny possibility but I doubt it.

no I meant supplements..if I skip my supplements I’m in hell. it deleted my whole first sentence of that paragraph for some reason. I have only taken half a perc once in the 2 months and that was last Wednesday.
 
I
Deru said:
I have no idea how I missed the portion about buprenorphine either, but yeah, 0.25mg/day of buprenorphine does not start the acute withdrawal phase. Another caveat here that isn't adding up, I think we need some clarification from OP to better respond with more accurate advice. The half-life of buprenorphine makes the whole withdrawal time-line a totally different world.
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im not on subs or percs!!! I’m talking about my past! I am 64 day’s off all opioids. Except for half of a perc last Wednesday because my house and kids rooms were disgusting I needed to clean. I was already at 60 days at that point and still in hell. I didn’t get high I just felt normal.
 
tweakette said:
im not on subs or percs!!! I’m talking about my past! I am 64 day’s off all opioids. Except for half of a perc last Wednesday because my house and kids rooms were disgusting I needed to clean. I was already at 60 days at that point and still in hell. I didn’t get high I just felt normal.
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Were you still taking the 0.25mg/buprenorphine per day when you stopped 64 days ago? Specifically, how many days have you been off buprenorphine?

What's important here is how many days ago you stopped buprenorphine more than the heroin - as PAWS @ 64 days for 0.25mg/buprenorphine daily is not out of normal due to it's half-life and potency, especially long term buprenorphine use.

Those are the variables I'm asking for clarification on.
 
Here is my timeline. I’m 33 years old in less than a month. (Sorry I’m so cranky from lack of sleep and I can’t function my brain is in fog). I started shooting meth when I was 17, then moved to heroin at 20. I then got pregnant and stopped (wasn’t that addicted). Had baby at 20. Then I starting shooting heroin at 21. At 22 I got on methadone and had a double habit of methadone and heroin for the next 6 years. I then went to detox at 28. I was so fucking sick that I ended up in hospital. I was there off and on for 3 weeks after. I got out and made it to 94 days before I couldn’t take the throwing up, weight loss, and body aches another second. I relaApsed. I then got pregnant 3 months after that. Since I had only been hardcore using for 3 months I put myself on subs and weened down to .25 a day. I tried to jump while pregnant but started bleeding and hospital told me to stop so I stayed at .25 a day for 7 months plus 8 months. My 2nd baby was born no withdrawal.

I stayed cleaned untily baby was 8 months. I then relapsed on heroin again. I did this for 18 months then I got on methadone with heroin again.... then I stopped the methadone 6 months before going to detox because last time I didn’t and almost died.

I went to detox 63? Yes 63... days ago. I did a half of a Percocet last Wednesday because I couldn’t just lie here sick as a dog. Stuff needed to get done. My life is falling apart. I am losing EVERYTHING slowly. I can’t work. This happened last time I went to detox as well, and I thought this timewould be better before I detoxed off a lot more of both waxy time.

ok there is my story. Phew.Hope that cleared some stuff up.
 
Thanks for that clarification.

First, that really is rough with insurance not covering ultrasound for labs, I'm sorry to hear that. I would be in the same position as you, then, if my insurance wouldn't cover ultrasound so I understand.

I understand now what you mean about supplements in regards to if you forget to take them, it's still impossible to know if one of them out of so many is causing an issue. And supplements don't work immediately typically, so not taking one or taking extra should have no immediate noticeable effects - I suppose to be fair it depends on what supplement and if you are deficient, although with your supplement use that wouldn't be a factor barring some type metabolic issue.

If buprenorphine and methadone have been stopped many, many months ago, then we're back to these symptoms are not typical of PAWS.

So, we seem to be at an impossible impasse here. To get properly diagnosed, blood work is more than likely going to be mandatory.

I suppose I could re-ask, how are you with your diet and hydration?
 
tweakette said:
Sorry I’m so cranky from lack of sleep and I can’t function my brain is in fog
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No worries, I've been there myself too many times to count. I understand completely and just want to be able to offer helpful advice :)
 
OP, you're definitely not alone in this. I've found through personal experience with Methadone and from folks I've talked to, that precipitated withdrawal can last a long time.

It is commonly stated that Heroin withdrawal is a 72 hour process and Methadone is a 5-7 day process. Does this seem accurate?? Didnt think so.

Having been on Methadone Maintenance can really set you up for a protracted and lingering Post-Acute Withdrawal Syndrome or PAWS. The bad news is that it can be a very long and drawn out experience, but the good news is that you should be close to relief.

I have had PAWS that lasted a couple of months. It wasn't serious, but I was struggling with lingering depression, anxiety and insomnia, but it improved. So long as you avoid Opioids, the use of which can extend your syndrome, you should see some improvement very soon.

Just stay strong and dont use. The situation will get better. One morning, you will wake up and realize that things are getting better. Once you start experiencing relief, you will feel a little bit better each day. Knowing that you're getting better can help bolster your motivation to stay away from Opioids.

Things will get better and we can help you and support you however you need, even if it's just emotional support.
 
Deru said:
Those are the variables I'm asking for clarification on.
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I don’t know about you but I ended up more confused than before. The previous use 5-6 years ago was more detailed than the current issue. I can’t continue to make a hypotheses. Something just doesn’t add up.
 
If I'm reading the timeline correct, OP has been off buprenorphine for over a year and off methadone for 8 months (64 days + 6 months stopped prior to detox.)
 
Deru said:
Thanks for that clarification.

First, that really is rough with insurance not covering ultrasound for labs, I'm sorry to hear that. I would be in the same position as you, then, if my insurance wouldn't cover ultrasound so I understand.

I understand now what you mean about supplements in regards to if you forget to take them, it's still impossible to know if one of them out of so many is causing an issue. And supplements don't work immediately typically, so not taking one or taking extra should have no immediate noticeable effects - I suppose to be fair it depends on what supplement and if you are deficient, although with your supplement use that wouldn't be a factor barring some type metabolic issue.

If buprenorphine and methadone have been stopped many, many months ago, then we're back to these symptoms are not typical of PAWS.

So, we seem to be at an impossible impasse here. To get properly diagnosed, blood work is more than likely going to be mandatory.

I suppose I could re-ask, how are you with your diet and hydration?
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yeah I don’t have paws issues.... I am not depressed, I have anxiety but I have my whole life it’s not any worse now than before using drugs, I can’t concentrate yes, and I’m in a fog because I can’t sleep.Mentally I’m fine besides the fact i can’t take the pain. If the pain, weakness would go away I would be dandy. I have moments in the evenings where the pain goes away and I feel like a human again. It starts to ease from 5pm on and then the mornings are horrific again.

I eat.... lol. It goes right through me though... Sorry for TMI but I have constant gastro issues from day one of detox to now they have not stopped. my appetite isn’t great I would say normal. I’m considered underweight but I have been my whole life....Nothing out of normal.

I don’t do much water, I have tried. But I don’t get thirsty and I just realize I went the whole day without drinking anything. But it’s not hydration I had an IV and still felt the same way.

Also, the supplement that helps I think the most is magnesium.
I take that every night and if I miss it I wanna die.
 
Deru said:
If I'm reading the timeline correct, OP has been off buprenorphine for over a year and off methadone for 8 months (64 days + 6 months stopped prior to detox.)
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Yes exactly. I stopped methadone 8 months ago, and subs it’s been like 2 years and 4 months. My daughter is 3 years 2 months now.
 
I also had full testing with my pregnancy since I was high risk because of being on subs 3 years ago and I had the same issues before that. Is it possible I’m just still sick?
 
Keif' Richards said:
OP, you're definitely not alone in this. I've found through personal experience with Methadone and from folks I've talked to, that precipitated withdrawal can last a long time.

It is commonly stated that Heroin withdrawal is a 72 hour process and Methadone is a 5-7 day process. Does this seem accurate?? Didnt think so.

Having been on Methadone Maintenance can really set you up for a protracted and lingering Post-Acute Withdrawal Syndrome or PAWS. The bad news is that it can be a very long and drawn out experience, but the good news is that you should be close to relief.

I have had PAWS that lasted a couple of months. It wasn't serious, but I was struggling with lingering depression, anxiety and insomnia, but it improved. So long as you avoid Opioids, the use of which can extend your syndrome, you should see some improvement very soon.

Just stay strong and dont use. The situation will get better. One morning, you will wake up and realize that things are getting better. Once you start experiencing relief, you will feel a little bit better each day. Knowing that you're getting better can help bolster your motivation to stay away from Opioids.

Things will get better and we can help you and support you however you need, even if it's just emotional support.
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Yes!! I feel crazy cuz I’m still sick. But I can’t be alone I know I can’t.

it’s funny cuz I bought a dub like 2 weeks ago and I flushed it cuz I honestly just wanna get through this shit!!!!
 
tweakette said:
It starts to ease from 5pm on and then the mornings are horrific again.
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My initial thoughts go to either a diet/hydration issue or a supplement issue.

Hypermagnesemia (too much magnesium in the blood) causes muscle fatigue and weakness, as well as a whole host of other symptoms similar to what you're describing.

The one caveat here is what I just quoted. When there is an imbalance in bacteria and mucosa in the gastrointestinal system, it affects the body's ability to coat the acids and bile salts. This would typically manifest as you describe, later in the night it would reduce and would be worse in the morning.

So diet and supplement modification may be something you could at least try at home without further requiring doctors or blood tests. In addition, dehydration could be a huge component here as well. It's quite possibly a multifaceted combination of factors instead of one single, identifiable cause.
 
When I got sober and had to kickstart my gut again from being on dope for years, I swore by eating rolled oats and plain greek yogurt.
Every morning: 4 tablespoons of plain, full fat yogurt, unsweetend and none of that full of glucose shit, 2 heaping hand fulls of rolled oats, add some honey to sweeten, mix that shit up and eat it. It's like magic for the gut. The yogurt and oats really feed the beneficial bacteria in your gut, as well as providing some much needed fibre. It also fills one up for a decent amount of time, and levels out the blood sugar. After a few months of this, my shitting went back to pre-addiction levels, and I could go to the bathroom and just take normal dumps again, which was such a foreign feeling.

Yogurt and Oats! Probably 50% of what got me through early recovery.
 
I do a similar thing, except plain Greek Yogurt for the protein and I try to find them with the Live Culture seal. Mixed with oats, perfect breakfast everyday and almost always one of my top sources of daily protein as well. And, I avoid the fruit flavored and the ones with Added Sugars like the plague too - those will screw up daily sugar intake every single time. It's like a landmine trying to maintain a healthy diet with most of the foods at grocery stores, but it's definitely possible with a little investment of research and planning. MyFitnessPal worked wonders for helping me figure it all out.
 
So 70 days today guys. I’m started to feel a little better, the body aches have chilled out. Thank The gods. I thought I wasn’t gonna make it another day.

The only thing I’m waiting to go away is literally frozen feet, and cold sweats all day and night long that wake me up. I also still sneeze all day long, the back to back sneezes. But instead of 3-4 in a row it’s now 2. So progress.

I went and saw a doctor last week, they ordered blood work, but I have yet to find someone that can get my blood. 🙄 They need a lot of blood....

so yeah, it’s very very slow but it’s happening. I noticed it because usually my body would ache so bad I would wake up at butt crack of dawn and jump into hot Epsom salt bath. Now I wake up and I feel creeky but I am not contemplating how to end it all because of the pain.

I still get waves of nausea so I smoke weed when this happens so I can eat, and the diarrhea is the same. No improvement.

I’m also still very weak, like if I try to lift my body it feels like my muscles are mush. And I know it’s all in my head (from withdrawals they aren’t actually mush) because when I took that half a Percocet (the one time) I cleaned my entire house with no weakness feeling at all.

The doctor said some people take longer and most likely I’m still detoxing..... I mean it makes sense, every time I have detoxed I got like this. But when I was sober off meth and not doing opioids I was fine.... it’s def not underlying conditions.
 
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