Ethnobotanicals Has anyone ever tried Kava?

[AutoTripper]

So they don't have credentials, they are just a bunch of randoms who take a given substance.
Remember a lot of us actively research and follow the science but none of us will claim to be experts that hold kore valid opinions than actual experts who made a career from what they do.

Yeah you kind of have been, baring in mind it's a basic fact of targeting GABA that it will cause addiction and dependency. That's established science.
So you're now claiming that you and a bunch of randoms know for a fact that this sole substance that happens to target GABA can alone do something that no other GABA agent can. As said that is a huge huge claim that flies in the face of established science.

I welcome absolutely anything scientific that evidences your claim. I won't hold my breath though I do hope you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that you're right as that would be most curious.

Anywho happy searching, I look forward to reviewing what you find.

I’ll ask the researchers. And be sure to share with you what they provide. The one man I’m speaking of, the owner of the forum, is dedicated and passionate about sharing fact based information on kava, he’s as diligent and professional as any member here in how seriously he takes it, conducts his research.

Not just a user on a trip.

 

[psynce of sound]

I’ll ask the researchers. And be sure to share with you what they provide. The one man I’m speaking of, the owner of the forum, is dedicated and passionate about sharing fact based information on kava, he’s as diligent and professional as any member here in how seriously he takes it, conducts his research.

Not just a user on a trip.

With all due respect that person is still just a random. They hold as much validity as you or I until they hold valid evidence rather than conjecture and anecdotal evidence.
Still I really do look forward to reading this.

 

[AutoTripper]

With all due respect that person is still just a random. They hold as much validity as you or I until they hold valid evidence rather than conjecture and anecdotal evidence.
Still I really do look forward to reading this.

I do understand exactly where you are coming from. I’m sorry for my somewhat flippant and dismissive manner earlier. I’m really not right atm.

So here is something relevant I feel to some of what you are asking, about why and how Kava could be different.

There’s lots more to dig through and I’m wiped with fatigue currently, so I’ll keep looking through but I think this is relevant for a start, I’ll link the page below.

Upregulation of GABA Receptors?

Today we’re going to look at one curious study regarding kava’s action at GABA in binding sites in different regions of rat brain. This study from 1994 comes prior to more timely studies which focus on kava and GABA, however it focuses on receptor density as well. We’re going to specifically look at a term known as B_max and how kavalactones affected this number.

What is B_max?
B_max is a parameter that is the measure of the binding of a drug and the number of receptors present in the sample. In short, it’s the maximum density of receptors [1]. This value tells us the physical number of binding sites, and in this case we’ll be seeing how kava may show an ability to increase this number.

What is “downregulation”?
Something you may have heard, especially if you’ve read any literature relating to drug addiction, is a term called “downregulation”. One function of drug tolerance is the desensitisation of receptors after repeated exposure to drugs which bind to them. A mechanism of this has been found to be the reduction in the number of binding sites that drugs can physically bind to [2].

What is “upregulation”?
Just as it looks, upregulation is the opposite action of downregulation. Upregulation refers to the increase in the number of receptor sites on a cell surface by which the orthosteric ligand (natural binding chemical) can attach [3].

So what was found in this kava study related to GABA-A receptor density?
Researchers applied two different concentrations of kavalactone extracts (full spectrum) at the dosage levels of 100um and 500um to see how these dosages affected different brain areas. It was seen that kavalactones influenced the receptor site densities in a dose dependent manner. In the following table you can see the numbers on the right under B_Max increase steadily. This number represents the quantity of receptors in the sample. Concentrations of GABA receptors in the cortical amygdala were seen to rise over 300% with various increases seen in all brain areas tested [4].


What does this mean to the average kava drinker?
Well, since this is one of the only studies referring to this phenomena, we can’t exactly say for sure. The dosages in this study, also, are much higher than what we can achieve when casually drinking kava. With this in mind and concerning the numbers in the above table, it seems that even lower dosages would cause this increase in receptor density to some degree. This finding could lend evidence to the physiological effect that kava can provide over time as kavalactones build up in the body. An increase in the number of GABA receptor sites will allow endogenous (naturally occurring) GABA to exert a larger inhibitory effect overall. Studies have remarked that this could be a main mechanism of action for kava [5], and this could possibly speak towards kava’s anxiolytic ability beyond that of its initial actions.

Summary:
Full-spectrum kava extracts were shown in rat brain to increase GABA binding sites relative to the dose that was given. This is directly opposite of what we see in addiction studies of receptors. Normally you see, with repeated administration of the chemical in question, a downregulation of receptor sites due to overactivation. When downregulation of receptors occurs, we see tolerance and withdrawal once the chemical in question is stopped. With kavalactones we see the opposite. In all areas of the brain studied a marked increase in GABA receptor density was observed. This may speak to kava’s long term ability to quell anxiety, and might possibly even lend a little evidence towards increasing effects over time.

[1] Dong, Chengyan, Zhaofei Liu, and Fan Wang. 2015. “Radioligand Saturation Binding for Quantitative Analysis of Ligand-Receptor Interactions.” Biophysics Reports 1: 148–55. https://doi.org/10.1007/s41048-016-0016-5

[2] Miller, L. G., S. Woolverton, D. J. Greenblatt, F. Lopez, R. B. Roy, and R. I. Shader. 1989. “Chronic Benzodiazepine Administration. IV. Rapid Development of Tolerance and Receptor Downregulation Associated with Alprazolam Administration.” Biochemical Pharmacology 38 (21): 3773–77. https://doi.org/10.1016/0006-2952(89)90584-4

[3] Edited by Dr. Esam El-Fakahany and Becky Merkey, & MEd. (n.d.). 16. Receptor Regulation. Principles of Pharmacology Study Guide. https://open.lib.umn.edu/pharmacology/chapter/receptor-regulation/

[4] Jussofie, A., A. Schmiz, and C. Hiemke. 1994. “Kavapyrone Enriched Extract from Piper Methysticum as Modulator of the GABA Binding Site in Different Regions of Rat Brain.” Psychopharmacology 116 (4): 469–74. https://doi.org/10.1007/BF02247480

[5] The Mechanism and Rationale for the Avoidance of Taking Benzodiazepines Along with Kava (Piper methysticum) and/or Valerian (Valeriana officinalis) Supplements. EBM Consult. https://www.ebmconsult.com/articles...valerian-valeriana-officinalis-cns-depression

Kava Fact of the Day - B_Max & Upregulation of GABA Receptors?

Upregulation of GABA Receptors? Edit: 09/08/2021 This information has been refuted. I asked one of the world leading kava researchers, Dr. Matthias Schmidt about this specific question, and this was his response: "The paper was published in 1994. This was a time when GABA receptor...

kavaforums.com

 

[JackARoe]

You say it's non-addictive. Aren't all things that target GABA receptors addictive, such as any GABA activity ultimately can cause addiction if not dependency?

I would think the same thing. It is a logical thought. But the only evidence I have is my wife. She quit drinking alcohol in 2013. She knows full well alcohol withdrawal symptoms. She took to sipping (yes I said sipping, how non traditional!!) kava all day every day. Goes through a kilo every 4 weeks. After a few years she wanted to take a month off and was prepared for any rebound on the gaba system but by all accounts was fine. Now I say that and she did take some gabapentin on those days off. Could be it covered any mild withdrawal but who knows. I can not say one way or another that kava works on the gaba system like benzos. It may or may not. But no real withdrawl was witnessed from my limited view of heavy kava use.

 

[AutoTripper]

I would think the same thing. It is a logical thought. But the only evidence I have is m ywife. She quit drinking alcohol in 2013. She knows full well alcohol withdrawal symptoms. She took to sipping (yes I said sipping, how non traditional!!) kava all day every day. After a few years she wanted to take a month off and was prepared for any rebound on the gaba system but by all accounts was fine. Now I say that and she did take some gabapentin on those days off. Could be it covered any mild withdrawal but who knows. I can not say one way or another that kava works on the gaba system like benzos. It may or may not. But no real withdrawl was witnessed from my limited view of heavy kava use.

Thanks for offering your honest input. I’m in right rough shape currently, I naturally replied above with what I believed to be accurate, but I’m not in fit condition to hunt through a tonne of misinfo, reiterated myths about kava by people who never tried it, just repeating what their “research” has turned up.

I tried but I’m not qualified at digging up the real science.

I posted something above I think may be of some substance though, thanks for your input.

Accurate information on this, like anything, is important.

 

[JackARoe]

I tried but I’m not qualified at digging up the real science.

Well I have one of the main Kava books, Kava The Paific Elixir and it is pretty comprehensive. No talk of any controlled studies of addiction and withdrawal so I am not sure just how much this has been studied anyway. But my thinking would be the same, if we have something hit the gaba system like benzos but does not cause withdrawal it would be about as important as something that hits the opiate receptors but does not cause withdrawal. And I do believe in time we will find out why such subtle differences can be.

But I can say this. Kava is a valid intoxicant. It does calm nerves in a soothing way. It has some nice mental effects too. And it was the traditional studies that showed the liver damage was off base too and was do to other parts of the plant that the natives did not use. Not sure anyone remembers Kava was almost made completely illegal over the world in 2002 and had liver killer thrown at it until it was debunked. Then it stayed in the herbal realm in the states. Was not made to be an illegal drug. Not sure about other countries. I thought kava was illegal in Australia?

 

[AutoTripper]

Well I have one of the main Kava books, Kava The Paific Elixir and it is pretty comprehensive. No talk of any controlled studies of addiction and withdrawal so I am not sure just how much this has been studied anyway. But my thinking would be the same, if we have something hit the gaba system like benzos but does not cause withdrawal it would be about as important as something that hits the opiate receptors but does not cause withdrawal. And I do believe in time we will find out why such subtle differences can be.

But I can say this. Kava is a valid intoxicant. It does calm nerves in a soothing way. It has some nice mental effects too. And it was the traditional studies that showed the liver damage was off base too and was do to other parts of the plant that the natives did not use. Not sure anyone remembers Kava was almost made completely illegal over the world in 2002 and had liver killer thrown at it until it was debunked. Then it stayed in the herbal realm in the states. Was not made to be an illegal drug. Not sure about other countries. I thought kava was illegal in Australia?

One particular aspect of kava, and I’ve seen scientific studies shared on Kavaforums on this- Kava is surprisingly anti-cancerous.

I’ll be reading through the fact reports, just slowly. I actually logged back in there today, asked the guy, replied to several PM’s. I’m wiped but gonna keep at it.

Appreciate your thoughts and knowledge again.

 

[burn out]

I can confirm kava has no withdrawal to speak of, at least in my own experience. It is an amazing substance.

Regarding needing to see scientific studies to believe this, I just wanted to say that some things are just known by the users of a particular substance. For example, it is widely known by alcohol drinkers that alcohol can cause hangovers. If you refused to believe that alcohol could cause hangovers without seeing scientific studies first, I think people would look at you weird.

Similarly, it is known by kava drinkers that kava doesn't cause a withdrawal syndrome like other GABAergics. Studies may exist or may not but the accumulated knowledge of the kava community shouldn't just be brushed aside as meaningless because it's not scientific. Scientific studies can be wrong. For example, I have read scientific studies that claim benzo withdrawal doesn't last longer than a couple of weeks. However, people in the benzo community know how wrong that is.

Now I am not claiming that kava has zero potential for withdrawal. It's possible that a subset of users, using large amounts over a long period of time might experience some form of withdrawal and scientific studies could be useful in determining this.

However I have never heard anyone claiming to have had severe withdrawal (or any withdrawal at all really) from kava, whereas there are entire online (and in some cases irl) communities dedicated to benzo withdrawal and detox facilities for alcohol. If kava were anywhere near that level of withdrawal potential, I think we'd know by now.

 

[AutoTripper]

I can confirm kava has no withdrawal to speak of, at least in my own experience. It is an amazing substance.

Regarding needing to see scientific studies to believe this, I just wanted to say that some things are just known by the users of a particular substance. For example, it is widely known by alcohol drinkers that alcohol can cause hangovers. If refused to believe that alcohol could cause hangovers without seeing scientific studies first, I think people would look at you weird.

Similarly, it is known by kava drinkers that kava doesn't cause a withdrawal syndrome like other GABAergics. Studies may exist or may not but the accumulated knowledge of the kava community shouldn't just be brushed aside as meaningless because it's not scientific. Scientific studies can be wrong. For example, I have read scientific studies that claim benzo withdrawal doesn't last longer than a couple of weeks. However, people in the benzo community know how wrong that is.

Now I am not claiming that kava has zero potential for withdrawal. It's possible that a subset of users, using large amounts over a long period of time might experience some form of withdrawal and scientific studies could be useful in determining this.

However I have never heard anyone claiming to have had severe withdrawal (or any withdrawal at all really) from kava, whereas there are entire online (and in some cases irl) communities dedicated to benzo withdrawal and detox facilities for alcohol. If kava were anywhere near that level of withdrawal potential, I think we'd know by now.

Thanks very much for your input. This is why I’ve never armed myself with a plethora of scientific links, as I felt it was mute, with the grand collective subjective database over time among the existing kava culture portraying the picture you report here.

If Kava really did cause true physical dependency and nasty or even dangerous withdrawals, it would surely surely simply be known, reported, evident.

Because it never has been, and no science has dictated it to be addictive the same way as other GABA agents are, I accepted that as some evidence of the fact.

 

[JackARoe]

I do think observing the traditional uses for things is better than any purported scientific controlled studies. Controlled studies, pffft. No such thing anymore. Everyone is a chemical factory these days.

 

[AutoTripper]

I do think observing the traditional uses for things is better than any purported scientific controlled studies. Controlled studies, pffft. No such thing anymore. Everyone is a chemical factory these days.

This is though, difficultly and in some cases downright obstructionary, but understandable all the same, gold standard demand increasingly so in this world on any subject.

I’m also a very strong believer in our innate intuition, tuning us into a higher understanding and deciphering ability.

Many still refuse to accept that ESP, and by that, psychic phenomenon, is totally real and accessible, much more so for some than others.

Honestly, being naturally very immaterial minded, deep thinking, and naturally psychic too my whole life I swear, I have some remarkable experiences of true ESP to recount.

I’m not a real world inhabitant, but way out on an orbit, somehow managing to stay connected. Hence my pitiful cred by not being the true science man.

I can understand. I try to see the other side always.

I’ve had my kava now today. About 37 grams only but I made 60 grams of strong ones using blender and lecithin with warm water.

So much more potent than some other, quicker methods especially Aluballs.

I’m a heavy kava user too, commonly 60-90 grams.

A few things about kava. The amount of times, I begin my day in the darkest place, due to personal problems and conditions.

It seems impossible that I might find an peace and comfort that day.

This, is where the kava comes in for me. Like now, I was feeling like death physically to start and throughout, earlier, and in some mental turmoil as a result.

But that has faded now. It stuns me when I access that place of peace, comfort and release.

Also, kava can be a great facilitator of communication, from the heart. It can be really helpful for general relationship health.

 

[psynce of sound]

I do understand exactly where you are coming from. I’m sorry for my somewhat flippant and dismissive manner earlier. I’m really not right atm.

So here is something relevant I feel to some of what you are asking, about why and how Kava could be different.

There’s lots more to dig through and I’m wiped with fatigue currently, so I’ll keep looking through but I think this is relevant for a start, I’ll link the page below.

Upregulation of GABA Receptors?

Today we’re going to look at one curious study regarding kava’s action at GABA in binding sites in different regions of rat brain. This study from 1994 comes prior to more timely studies which focus on kava and GABA, however it focuses on receptor density as well. We’re going to specifically look at a term known as B_max and how kavalactones affected this number.

What is B_max?
B_max is a parameter that is the measure of the binding of a drug and the number of receptors present in the sample. In short, it’s the maximum density of receptors [1]. This value tells us the physical number of binding sites, and in this case we’ll be seeing how kava may show an ability to increase this number.

What is “downregulation”?
Something you may have heard, especially if you’ve read any literature relating to drug addiction, is a term called “downregulation”. One function of drug tolerance is the desensitisation of receptors after repeated exposure to drugs which bind to them. A mechanism of this has been found to be the reduction in the number of binding sites that drugs can physically bind to [2].

What is “upregulation”?
Just as it looks, upregulation is the opposite action of downregulation. Upregulation refers to the increase in the number of receptor sites on a cell surface by which the orthosteric ligand (natural binding chemical) can attach [3].

So what was found in this kava study related to GABA-A receptor density?
Researchers applied two different concentrations of kavalactone extracts (full spectrum) at the dosage levels of 100um and 500um to see how these dosages affected different brain areas. It was seen that kavalactones influenced the receptor site densities in a dose dependent manner. In the following table you can see the numbers on the right under B_Max increase steadily. This number represents the quantity of receptors in the sample. Concentrations of GABA receptors in the cortical amygdala were seen to rise over 300% with various increases seen in all brain areas tested [4].


What does this mean to the average kava drinker?
Well, since this is one of the only studies referring to this phenomena, we can’t exactly say for sure. The dosages in this study, also, are much higher than what we can achieve when casually drinking kava. With this in mind and concerning the numbers in the above table, it seems that even lower dosages would cause this increase in receptor density to some degree. This finding could lend evidence to the physiological effect that kava can provide over time as kavalactones build up in the body. An increase in the number of GABA receptor sites will allow endogenous (naturally occurring) GABA to exert a larger inhibitory effect overall. Studies have remarked that this could be a main mechanism of action for kava [5], and this could possibly speak towards kava’s anxiolytic ability beyond that of its initial actions.

Summary:
Full-spectrum kava extracts were shown in rat brain to increase GABA binding sites relative to the dose that was given. This is directly opposite of what we see in addiction studies of receptors. Normally you see, with repeated administration of the chemical in question, a downregulation of receptor sites due to overactivation. When downregulation of receptors occurs, we see tolerance and withdrawal once the chemical in question is stopped. With kavalactones we see the opposite. In all areas of the brain studied a marked increase in GABA receptor density was observed. This may speak to kava’s long term ability to quell anxiety, and might possibly even lend a little evidence towards increasing effects over time.

[1] Dong, Chengyan, Zhaofei Liu, and Fan Wang. 2015. “Radioligand Saturation Binding for Quantitative Analysis of Ligand-Receptor Interactions.” Biophysics Reports 1: 148–55. https://doi.org/10.1007/s41048-016-0016-5

[2] Miller, L. G., S. Woolverton, D. J. Greenblatt, F. Lopez, R. B. Roy, and R. I. Shader. 1989. “Chronic Benzodiazepine Administration. IV. Rapid Development of Tolerance and Receptor Downregulation Associated with Alprazolam Administration.” Biochemical Pharmacology 38 (21): 3773–77. https://doi.org/10.1016/0006-2952(89)90584-4

[3] Edited by Dr. Esam El-Fakahany and Becky Merkey, & MEd. (n.d.). 16. Receptor Regulation. Principles of Pharmacology Study Guide. https://open.lib.umn.edu/pharmacology/chapter/receptor-regulation/

[4] Jussofie, A., A. Schmiz, and C. Hiemke. 1994. “Kavapyrone Enriched Extract from Piper Methysticum as Modulator of the GABA Binding Site in Different Regions of Rat Brain.” Psychopharmacology 116 (4): 469–74. https://doi.org/10.1007/BF02247480

[5] The Mechanism and Rationale for the Avoidance of Taking Benzodiazepines Along with Kava (Piper methysticum) and/or Valerian (Valeriana officinalis) Supplements. EBM Consult. https://www.ebmconsult.com/articles...valerian-valeriana-officinalis-cns-depression

Kava Fact of the Day - B_Max & Upregulation of GABA Receptors?

Upregulation of GABA Receptors? Edit: 09/08/2021 This information has been refuted. I asked one of the world leading kava researchers, Dr. Matthias Schmidt about this specific question, and this was his response: "The paper was published in 1994. This was a time when GABA receptor...

kavaforums.com

I can relate to having fatigue issues, don't worry also about any previous attitude shown. I fully can understand where you are likely coming from.

Thank you a lot for digging that up all things considered with you.
That has definitely given me new avenues of thought/questions to be looked into.
I find it pretty intriguing and it's a shame there isn't more literature on this aspect of kava's activity in the body.
Again you have my thanks.

 

[psynce of sound]

Regarding needing to see scientific studies to believe this, I just wanted to say that some things are just known by the users of a particular substance. For example, it is widely known by alcohol drinkers that alcohol can cause hangovers. If you refused to believe that alcohol could cause hangovers without seeing scientific studies first, I think people would look at you weird.

I can confirm kava has no withdrawal to speak of, at least in my own experience. It is an amazing substance.

Regarding needing to see scientific studies to believe this, I just wanted to say that some things are just known by the users of a particular substance. For example, it is widely known by alcohol drinkers that alcohol can cause hangovers. If you refused to believe that alcohol could cause hangovers without seeing scientific studies first, I think people would look at you weird.

Similarly, it is known by kava drinkers that kava doesn't cause a withdrawal syndrome like other GABAergics. Studies may exist or may not but the accumulated knowledge of the kava community shouldn't just be brushed aside as meaningless because it's not scientific. Scientific studies can be wrong. For example, I have read scientific studies that claim benzo withdrawal doesn't last longer than a couple of weeks. However, people in the benzo community know how wrong that is.

Now I am not claiming that kava has zero potential for withdrawal. It's possible that a subset of users, using large amounts over a long period of time might experience some form of withdrawal and scientific studies could be useful in determining this.

However I have never heard anyone claiming to have had severe withdrawal (or any withdrawal at all really) from kava, whereas there are entire online (and in some cases irl) communities dedicated to benzo withdrawal and detox facilities for alcohol. If kava were anywhere near that level of withdrawal potential, I think we'd know by now.

With all due respect, it is my experience quite consistently that people whom believe something can happen with a given substance that goes against established understandings of said substance or related ones and their activities/how things are known to work (neuro)biologically are typically wrong, hence drug myths. Also psychosomatics quite often explains a number of these phenomena also.

So as a skeptical individual I believe asking for evidence, especially where such has already been claimed to exist is kind of a good idea.
Like i mean you too would want to see evidence if something when what a person is saying sounds suspect. Not doing so is kind of foolish.

 

[AutoTripper]

I can relate to having fatigue issues, don't worry also about any previous attitude shown. I fully can understand where you are likely coming from.

Thank you a lot for digging that up all things considered with you.
That has definitely given me new avenues of thought/questions to be looked into.
I find it pretty intriguing and it's a shame there isn't more literature on this aspect of kava's activity in the body.
Again you have my thanks.

Hi, not a problem. I’m really glad that you feel this will be useful and informative. I certainly never intended any abrasiveness. I’m just not so good on hunting through the whole peer reviewed evidence thing, insane allergies and immune deficiency wipe me out from longterm Lyme.

Lots of stuff not fun daily, so I have an aversion to anything head taxing or so real world it just flares my anxiety. I try to escape and have fun in between. For mental and physical health, coping mechanism’s sake.

I did really believe this would be more transparent, clear, because I know this guy is into proper peer reviewed studies and facts, there’s 6 pages of similar posts of studies, all different angles on Kava.

He’s put a lot of work into it over time.

The fatigue is originally down to full proper Lyme since 2005. Not the worst thing I’ll say no way, but completely life changing.

 

[Xorkoth]

With all due respect, it is my experience quite consistently that people whom believe something can happen with a given substance that goes against established understandings of said substance or related ones and their activities/how things are known to work (neuro)biologically are typically wrong, hence drug myths. Also psychosomatics quite often explains a number of these phenomena also.

So as a skeptical individual I believe asking for evidence, especially where such has already been claimed to exist is kind of a good idea.
Like i mean you too would want to see evidence if something when what a person is saying sounds suspect. Not doing so is kind of foolish.

Although it is not the same as a peer reviewed clinical study, I do challenge you to find any accounts of habitual kava drinkers experiencing any dependence. I don't know why that's the case, but it is. I'd actually like to see some evidence (studies or personal accounts) to suggest it IS physically addictive because I have never seen any.

I mean if every experienced drug user you've ever talked to about it has claimed to not experience withdrawals after chronic use, you start to think, hmm, maybe it's not addictive. Otherwise surely I'd have read at least some accounts of people experiencing withdrawals. I am not sure whether there is any research into it or not. I haven't seen any. Doesn't mean there isn't though because I've never tried to find any, since kava is relatively uninteresting to me. I get very inconsistent effects even from the same batch. Occasionally I'll get a great rush and feel super chatty and great, but it is short lived and usually it is a mild relaxation at most. I've never gotten a single thing from kava capsules, but properly prepared with good kava, it is certainly a pronounced effect. I just rarely find it all that great (not bad either though).

Amanita muscaria mushrooms affect GABA as their primary action (of muscimol). There are muscarinic GABA receptors and they do not appear to cause dependence either, and in fact in the case of muscimol, the effects are quite profoundly different from your average GABA drug.

 

[psynce of sound]

Hi, not a problem. I’m really glad that you feel this will be useful and informative. I certainly never intended any abrasiveness. I’m just not so good on hunting through the whole peer reviewed evidence thing, insane allergies and immune deficiency wipe me out from longterm Lyme.

Lots of stuff not fun daily, so I have an aversion to anything head taxing or so real world it just flares my anxiety. I try to escape and have fun in between. For mental and physical health, coping mechanism’s sake.

I did really believe this would be more transparent, clear, because I know this guy is into proper peer reviewed studies and facts, there’s 6 pages of similar posts of studies, all different angles on Kava.

He’s put a lot of work into it over time.

The fatigue is originally down to full proper Lyme since 2005. Not the worst thing I’ll say no way, but completely life changing.

I can relate as a person with chronic fatigue syndrome on top of a concurrent fibromyalgia diagnosis, I go through transient episodes that result in me being too fatigued to move much and wracked with some pretty intense pain. So I can kind of understand how it might be for you. I couldn't though imagine it as a (near) constant as it may be for you.
Lyme has always sounded, well difficult, from my reading in the past.

Well I now have something to start with and I'll definitely have to devote some time to reading about kava. Between the succulent tidbit you found and the consensus so far of it being a lived experience. It has my curiosity well and truly piqued.

 

[psynce of sound]

Although it is not the same as a peer reviewed clinical study, I do challenge you to find any accounts of habitual kava drinkers experiencing any dependence. I don't know why that's the case, but it is. I'd actually like to see some evidence (studies or personal accounts) to suggest it IS physically addictive because I have never seen any.

I mean if every experienced drug user you've ever talked to about it has claimed to not experience withdrawals after chronic use, you start to think, hmm, maybe it's not addictive. Otherwise surely I'd have read at least some accounts of people experiencing withdrawals. I am not sure whether there is any research into it or not. I haven't seen any. Doesn't mean there isn't though because I've never tried to find any, since kava is relatively uninteresting to me. I get very inconsistent effects even from the same batch. Occasionally I'll get a great rush and feel super chatty and great, but it is short lived and usually it is a mild relaxation at most. I've never gotten a single thing from kava capsules, but properly prepared with good kava, it is certainly a pronounced effect. I just rarely find it all that great (not bad either though).

Amanita muscaria mushrooms affect GABA as their primary action (of muscimol). There are muscarinic GABA receptors and they do not appear to cause dependence either, and in fact in the case of muscimol, the effects are quite profoundly different from your average GABA drug.

I could agree, though I'm ever the skeptic.
So it's something I'm definitely going to have to look into.
I'd of imagined muscimol acts on GABA in a very different manner than say PAMs and Agonists. Without looking it up, It strikes as something that would work in an antagonist type of manner.
I do hear what you're saying though.

Already with a cursory glance it's apparent that the alkaloid profile produces a pretty diverse range of receptor targets.

Thank you for giving words to remind me of flaws in my thinking/approach.

 

[Xorkoth]

I believe kava also affects GABA in a unique way, though certainly different than muscimol. Muscimol is an agonist of the muscarinic GABA receptor subtype, which clearly has substantially different effects, but is still part of the GABA system. Not sure if anyone really knows exactly how kava works, but if there are any papers on it that anyone knows of I'd love to see them.

 

[AutoTripper]

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I believe kava also affects GABA in a unique way, though certainly different than muscimol. Muscimol is an agonist of the muscarinic GABA receptor subtype, which clearly has substantially different effects, but is still part of the GABA system. Not sure if anyone really knows exactly how kava works, but if there are any papers on it that anyone knows of I'd love to see them.

Hi. Thanks for contributing here as a reliable sounding board again.

Did you see the link I shared to kavaforums.

It’s the Facts of the Day page. 6 pages of posts with references to any and all official studies conducted on kava to date, as well as general information and aspects of it.

I don’t know if this type of enquiry and way of presenting the science is what you would look for usually, but I think there’s a lot of genuine information in there and constructive thinking.

In-Depth Kava Discussion

Larger, more in-depth discussions of kava related topics.

kavaforums.com

So my dosages this week, 60 grams for 3 running days, 65 yesterday.

I’m taking over 250 mg’s THC daily plus the Etiz I’m trying to taper.

For the vast majority of members on the kavaforum, kava is the sole daily psychoactive.

So I’m not actually a typical kava drinker. Common daily dosage are about 40-50 grams on average, again often the only psychoactive for many there, besides maybe CBD and Coffee.

Some use weed as well. Others use Kratom still too. But it’s mostly just people dedicated to kava.

I’m a right poly head. Hence me hanging out over here, I’ve nothing to add there, they all know all that’s needed and there’s people there can answer any question on kava better than me.

I can be more useful here regarding general pointers and info about kava, I’m no expert on anything, but you don’t need to be am in expert on kava, or have a qualification, it’s so basic to learn how to use, nothing really is going to go wrong besides possible lack of effect, some nausea, or just don’t like how kava feels.

So I’m actually maybe the most wasted member generally on that forum I firmly consider.

Definitely can’t say that here, but I’ll still buy a raffle ticket.

But that’s one good reason I feel more at home here. (Despite using kava, I’m really not actually their sort. They like things good and proper. I’m not good and proper in that sense.)

So you just have to tolerate me here instead I guess. Numerous other crevices and avenues for communication and banter but BL has been my daily diary of life’s psychoactive documentations.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

Yeah, I've had Kava Kava. I believe they sell it in capsule form on amazon. Or they did when I bought it a couple times, around 2015.
It's definitely not a Gabapentinoid, though. I honestly can't remember if it did anything for me or not. Maybe helped with anxiety a little, maybe not.