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Opioids Going to try kicking my opiate habbit.....once again with subs

Good luck buddy.
I'm in the same boat. I am scared shitless as well. SUbs used to work great for me but now they done do anything hardly.
I'll say a prayer for you.
 
i don't really have any advice for you that hasn't been said already, so just here to wish you good luck. (ツ
 
A doctor, ANY doctor with a MD, can prescribe neurontin off label, the problem is he just doesn't feel comfortable for certain patients as everyone's case is different. I get neurontin for anxiety when it's prescribed typically for nerve pain and seizures, please , someone Correct me if I'm wrong. What I'm trying to say is you can get It if you present good enough reason why he should. A lot of people think regular family docs can't prescribe psychiatric meds, but the truth is they can, another example of this.
 
Update:

Well, I just finished building my arsenal. I managed to get get 30 hits of 8mg of Subutex not Suboxone so I don't have to deal with the nalaxone. I found a really good doc who actually had a fuckn clue. I was able to talk to him with way we talk to each other here....well....almost. Unlike my other bitch cunt doc who didn't care to help me, he took the time to answer all my questions and concerns. I was actually kind of blown back with the fact.

He hooked me up with the clonidine I had asked for and told me it was a good idea. I asked him about the zofran for my nausea and he was happy to give it to me, but he didn't think it would help me out too much. But still...no problem, gave it to me regardless. I asked him about the gabapentin, he said he really only knew as much as I did from the research I have done on the net about it, but told me to go ahead and use it. He was not to keen on the use of immodium....he said that I should really only use it only if I find the need. He didn't suggest using it as a precautionary measure. I also have some prilosec....not sure why, but I did get it last time and have some left over. I'm not sure how it's supposed to help me, but I'm going to look it up. I have a few more things I got when I last attempted to do this, I just have to go over everything else I have and see where it all fits in.

Plan is to start Monday. Well....when I say start, I mean I am going to quit using the junk I am using now and switch over to the hydromorphone. I'm not sure how to dose....but I'm going to take as little as possible. Plan is to take just enough so that I don't get dope sick. I think I'll be on it for about 4-5 days....that should be plenty of time for my system to clear itself of anything else I might have inside me. Even though I know I don't have any long acting opiates in me....there might be a chance that something I may have used does have something that is long acting. So, just to play it triple safe....I'm going to stay on the Dilaudid for a good 5 days. After my last dose of D, I'm going to wait until I hit a 26 on the COWS sheet. I waited about 24 hours last time, and I still went into PWD. So, I think I'm probably looking at a good 30 hours of sheer fuckn hell before I drop my fist dose of Sub. Doc agreed to take 4mg at first since I have such a high tolerance. If I feel a little bit better, plan is to take another 4mg. All is well....wait another 30 mins....and hit another 4mg. I don't think (doc also) I will need more than 12-14mg on my first day. Second day...more like 8-12mg. But I'm happy knowing I have plenty on hand. Technically, he gave me 2 weeks worth (8mg 2X ED = 30 tabs). And in two weeks, I have an appointment to go back and he'll give me more if I need to (for the taper). I also have about 68mg of Suboxone strips (2mg) that I could use at the tail.

So that's where I stand fellas. Anyone have anything to add? I'm spending the next few days stuffing my face with as much food/calories/nutrients as possible because I know what kind of battle I have ahead of me. I'm drinking mad amounts of electrolytes and energy drinks. Shoving about 220 gr. of protein in me every day based on a 7k calorie diet. I'm actually toying with the notion of starting up an anabolic program....but I think it might be best for my body to first slowly get back to a normal state before I start messing with hormones (GH/test/tren/deca/etc). I've read that running a program afterwards does help the body bounce back. I should know the answer to that question, but I want to make sure.....ugh.....rant over....lol



/V
 
^ that's awesome that you've actually found a decent doctor mate - keep up the good work!
you're gonna absolutely fucking smash it this time fella
sending positive hippy vibes (ツ
 
IM tapering from .5-1 gram of heroin a day I'm down to .2 or .1 + (30 mgs oxy + 45-60 mgs morphine ER)

But I'm abusing my benzos I tapered down to .5 mgs Xanax a day or 5 mgs Valium a day now I'm popping 1-2 bars again and smoking 4-8 blunts a day of top shelf (yes I swear I live in California and that's the one lucky thing I can get a lot of easy cheap)

Shit is hard brother, caffeine makes everything worse stay away from caffeine for the next half year lol trust me stimulants don't help , except some special people for some reason it helps them, but in that case you need a stash that will last that week of detox cause coming down during WD is horrendous .

Anyways I'm here with you buddy, it's like the 8th thread I've hopped onto trying to quit together I'm such a fail and I do these rants , I guess that's our way of Therapy and getting by one more day.

I've been tapering 4 days and I've successfully managed to cut down to where when I wake up (hopefully I don't use in the middle of the night ) it'll be 36 hours passed with only .2 used 30 mgs oxy and 45 mgs morph which is amazing for me it's the cleanest I've felt in 3 years which is insane cause other people would be high all day on a .2 sac

I've always hated subuxone , I have a strip that expired in 2014 I've held onto it for 6 years for emergency and never used it lol cause it wouldn't ever get me well enough and then I'd have blocked receptors and waste dope so I never took it. (The back of the strips have expiration dates idk why)

Anyways this time I might actually wait since I'm not taking the subuxone straight 24 hours after being strung out for 3 years doing almost a gram a day.

Taking someone's advice , now that I've been cutting down for 4-5 days if I take the sub I feel it will actually work like I expected it always to work . I feel clean as hell and that's still me using .2 a day , I sleep deeper and better without interruptions, I'm able to eat more now, I don't piss every 30 minutes cause I'm in minor withdrawals always needing a .1-.15 shot every 4-6 hours I'm tired of the countdown clock in my head waiitkng and expecting to feel bad

Whenever I see friends on Facebook on vacation I get sad thinking I couldn't even enjoy being on that island or beach I'd be throwing up sick the whole week if I were vacating somewhere with my family I wanna be free :(

I can't even leave my state or leave for more than a week and no where further than 7-10 hours from home because that's how long I could keep a stash with me before having to score and scoring in a new city on vacation isn't smart but that's not the point again ranting sorry.

When you detox everything starts coming back hardcore, your senses are on over load, I can bust 3 nuts in a row in 30 seconds , food smells so strong, thoughts are racing and emotions.
Blue light is my only friend and place where no one judges me or turns on me cause I use drugs .

I'll stay posted I hope you're doing well, don't drink caffeine it's bad . Get gabapentin if u can or clonodine.
If you are toaering try to only dose once every however long hours (8-16+) and do more at once rather than frequently small doses because you give you receptors a chance to somewhat heal and not activate its better to use short half life opiate when tapering once every 8-12 hours and cut down that way
 
IME- the only way I've "cured" PWD's is by taking a really, really large dose of my DOC. This does't make the PWD's worse or anything absurd like that. It will however delay your ability to try again :/ IMHO though, it's worth pushing the whole thing back a day or two, if it means not experiencing a 24 hour (or longer :O ) nightmare.
 
mostly-human said:
IME- the only way I've "cured" PWD's is by taking a really, really large dose of my DOC. This does't make the PWD's worse or anything absurd like that. It will however delay your ability to try again :/ IMHO though, it's worth pushing the whole thing back a day or two, if it means not experiencing a 24 hour (or longer :O ) nightmare.
Click to expand...

I had to do that twice in order to feel better after two failed attempts. Small doses won't do shit. I had to take a rather HUGE dose that put me in a state of mind of just.....nothing. If I could have stayed in that possition feeling the way I had for the rest of my life, my stupid self would have done so.

But my whole point to this thread is to avoid PWD. I can't do it again. I need to clean up so I can move and start life over again.

On Sunday, I stopped my other stuff and switched to just Dilaudid. I remember a long time ago a one 4mg pill tossed me into another world. Now, I can take 10 pills (40mg) and hardly feel it. So my tolerance is fair to say is really high. I'm going to spend the next week dropping my dose as much as I can....just to the point to where I am at the border line of being dope sick. That's my plan with the Dilaudid...drop as much as I can each day until I run out. At that point, I'll be dry and will wait for my body to hit a 26 on the COWS. It might very well hit a 26 in 16 hrs....however, I'm going to try and wait it out as long as I can.

As mentioned above, I have clonodine, clonopin, and zofran to help me. In addition, I have the following OTC sups to help me.

•Immodium
•Magnesium
•Calcium
•Potassium
•Passion Flower
•Tumeric
•Fish Oil
•Tagamet (cimetidine)
•Prilosec (omeprazole)
•Vitamin D
•Multivitamin
•Zantac (ranitidine)

It looks like a lot of products on the list, and I'm curtain I don't need all of them but I have been reading and reading and there is always a few who swear by some of these products. I'm not sure which ones to knock off the list. Honestly, I'm thinking of using the Passion Flower as a tea and use that to hydrate myself. I just wish I knew how to use all these sups and at what stage. I have used them a long time ago on my first time to kick my main meds.....I didn't have enough subs so I was swallowing just about everything on the list above. It worked.

To go one step further, I know how opiates can lower testosterone levels. I've been a body builder for over 20 years and it wasn't until I got really injured that I had to stop. However, I am thinking that running a low dose testosterone regimen might be advantageous to me. I don't know. I know I will do so after this nightmare is over....depending on the ester of the type of testosterone that I run, it could start working in 2-3 days, or 2-3 weeks. I have it all on hand, but I am just a bit nervous about how the clonidine will effect my BP with the use of anabolic steroids.

I know it seems like I'm throwing a lot at this.....and I know I am. But I just can't bare the fact of running into PWD again. I get sick thinking about it, and I will give myself a panic attack if I think about it too long. I just want to say I did everything humanly possible to rid myself of this nightmare.

Another 2-3 days of Dialudid use to make sure that just incase I was using something before with a LONG acting opiate in it...I want to make sure it's all out of my system an I only have to deal with the D which is one of the shortest (if not THE shortest) acting opiates out there....
 
I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but I really wouldn't expect much from anything but the loperamide. Those supplements may be helpful in some small ways, but they won't hold a candle to something like gabapentin or baclofen.

Fun fact! Baclofen can totally eliminate opioid withdrawal even more effectively than gabapentin and pregabalin. Why not use a non-opioid like baclofen, gabapentin or pregabalin to help you transition from full agonists to buprenorphine?

Or you can use tramadol to induct on buprenorphine. Alternatively, if you are so concerned with PWD, why not avoid it entirely and use methadone in place of buprenorphine?
 
The gabaergics TPD listed above, Baclofen, Gabapentin & Pregabalin have all been very helpful with my W/D nausea in the past which I think you mentioned as being a large problem for yourself OP. Might be worth considering in addition to or instead of the Odansetron. Maybe a mild trial run might give you some more answers before taking the plunge..
 
toothpastedog said:
I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but I really wouldn't expect much from anything but the loperamide. Those supplements may be helpful in some small ways, but they won't hold a candle to something like gabapentin or baclofen.

Fun fact! Baclofen can totally eliminate opioid withdrawal even more effectively than gabapentin and pregabalin. Why not use a non-opioid like baclofen, gabapentin or pregabalin to help you transition from full agonists to buprenorphine?

Or you can use tramadol to induct on buprenorphine. Alternatively, if you are so concerned with PWD, why not avoid it entirely and use methadone in place of buprenorphine?
Click to expand...

I plan on using gabapentin, not so sure of the doses....but I do have it on hand. I am scared shitless of methadone and was told by many to avoid it at ALL costs. I don't know how to use it and to be honest, I'm not sure if my doc would give it to me as he and I put together a plan for subs.

Is meth something that can be used for a few days than stopped? I wouldn't know where to begin....but, if I fail with subs, I might have to try the meth path. How would one go about it...in a case like mine? Thanks...
 
Use gabapentin while your inducting on buprenorphine. Meaning, take some a few hours after your last dose of full acting opioids (hydromorphone iirc?) and use it to get through the 24hrs or so before you're in the clear to take buprenorphine. Basically it will help you get through the time it takes for you to go into opioid withdrawal so you can safely avoid PWD from buprenorphine.

You can continue taking gabapentin if necessary to help you stabilize on buprenorphine, although unnecessary long term use should be avoided. I don't know how helpful gabapentin will be with your benzo tolerance (IME there is some cross tolerance), compared to using something like baclofen or tramadol to transition, but it will certainly be better than nothing for that period between your normal opioids and buprenorphine.

Methadone is vastly misunderstood and stigmatized, but many people find it far surpior to buprenorphine when it comes to managing cravings and pain management. However, if you already have a plan in place for buprenorphine and aren't a pain clinic patient, getting methadone is just enough of a pain to do in the states (having to deal with clinics and their rigidity) to make what you're doing a good idea.

I'd say try buprenorphine and if that doesn't work you can consider methadone. It is an even larger commitment than buprenorphine when dealing with methadone clinics and not being prescribed it for pain. For some people the structure of methadone clinic is very helpful, like me, but for those who don't need the added support it provides it can be overkill.
 
Thanks for the info....especially on the gabapentin. I could probably get my hands on some meth.....I actually have a cousin who is coming off oxy from her cancer treatment. They gave her some meth to help with her WD but she just decided not to take it and it's just sitting in her medicine cabinet. I don't know how much they gave her but it was only for 5 days. Like I said, I know very little about it....but heard it is a BITCH to come off of.

Is there a way to use meth to detox off of my hydro so that I can avoid WD all together (for the most part). Because if so....I'd consider that. This whole having to wait until I'm deep into WD to begin subs really sucks.....and I failed to do it two times. If I could go straight from my hydro to meth than just stop....that would be a God send....but am not sure if it works that way?? Do I have to wait and get sick before using meth to detox? Thanks again for your help, sir....



/V
 
Found an older thread....

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/500248-Precipitated-WD-with-Subutex


Some say that they can take the sub right away and deal with PWD for an hr or so....than fell better? As opposed to waiting a long 24-30 hrs. of hell. Any thoughts to this? I'm a little nervous to try.

Is there anything I can take other than the gabapentin while I wait the 24 hrs. to reach a 26 on the COWS? I've also come across so many studies that say you don't have to wait 24 hrs.

"To minimize the risk and damage of precipitated withdrawal, buprenorphine should be started when the withdrawal symptoms are still mild (a score of 5 or 6)."

http://americanaddictioncenters.org/suboxone/precipitated-withdrawal/


Ugh...
 
I wouldn't recommend going into PWD, for me it lasted 16 hours and was pure hell. I don't think you'd have to wait 24-36 hours coming off hydromorphone as it's short acting, but it depends on the person.

When it comes down to it you have to be in full withdrawal to start subs, no matter how long it takes. IME If you go into PWD it drastically affects your chance of quitting, you feel so fucked up that dealing with everything post PWD seems so much more difficult. Good luck mate.
 
Sorry meant to add, while I've never used hydromorphone I have started on subs after using fentanyl exclusively (fentanyl is very short acting) and I waited 6 hours and didn't go into PWD. The time I did go into PWD was from heroin and I waited 12 hours. Only way to avoid PWD is to wait until you feel really like shit.
 
You could probably get away waiting less than 24hrs after your last dose of hydromorphone. I rarely had to wait more than 12hrs switching from heroin. But PWD should be avoided at all cost. Even a day or withdrawal is better than even an hour of that.

Methadone won't be helpful for transitioning to buprenorphine. Tramadol would, but that is because it doesn't interact with buprenorphine like full agonists such as hydromorphone and methadone. Switching to another shorter acting opioid for a few days before inducting on buprenorphine, but that will be of limited use. Tramadol would be the ideal medication to use to switch to buprenorphine in your case though (for someone who is really concerned about withdrawal).

TBH it's just 12-24hrs or opioid withdrawal at worst you will have to deal with. Gabapentin will help a lot. Even the most committed opioid users can deal with that, and I have a feeling you'll be able to handle this better than you might think OP.
 
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