Getting the most out of mushrooms...

[DwayneHoover]

Yeah, sorry Dwayne, but from a cursory google search Ismene seems to be correct.

Cited from wiki (I don't care what you say about wiki, it's generally pretty accurate about drug dangers):

Dietary advice

"No special diet is necessary, in contrast to irreversible MAOIs. Nevertheless, the patient should avoid excessive consumption of foods containing tyramine (e.g. cheddar cheese, fava beans, chianti wine) in order to avoid a rise in blood pressure."

Oh OK... I stand corrected, partially. When I saw wiki said

Moclobemide should not generally be taken concurrently with other antidepressants, because of the likelihood of significant drug interactions. Some very specific regimens may combine moclobemide with a tricyclic or SSRI antidepressant. A washout period of two days is necessary when switching to a tricyclic antidepressant, and for SSRIs, a washout period of at least four to five half-lives is required.

The elimination half-life is 1 to 2 hours.[4][5] Despite its short half-life the pharmacodynamic action of a single dose persists for approximately 16 hours.​

I stopped reading and assumed this was characteristic of an irreversable. I am sure the active time of Rue is WAY less than 16 hours. Also it is ONLY MAO- effective, whereas the moclobemide is both A & B... so I still say that the Rue is "safer."

Also, Wiki says about Harmine:

Harmine, and plants containing significant amounts of harmine and other harmala alkaloids are generally not considered safe treatments for depression within the medical community. This bias however is primarily built on previous decades of experience with pharmaceutical non-specific MAOIs that block both MAO-A and MAO-B.[6] Inhibiting MAO-A or MAO-B (in high enough doses) while consuming tyramine-laden foods, e.g. cheese, can cause tyramine, ordinarily metabolized by these enzymes, to accumulate to dangerous levels. Because harmine reversibly inhibits MAO-A, the harmala alkaloids (including harmine) are less likely to induce this "cheese syndrome".[7]​

And about moclobemide:

A single 300 mg dose of moclobemide inhibits 80% of monoamine oxidase A (MAO-A) and 30% of monoamine oxidase B (MAO-B),[3]​

So "Sorry, Ismene", but Rue is definitely safer than moclobemide.

 

[IamMe90]

"safer" is pretty vacuous when both are pretty "safe." Just saying.

 

[DwayneHoover]

OK, whatever

 

[Ismene]

So "Sorry, Ismene", but Rue is definitely safer than moclobemide.

I'd have to disagree with you there Dwayne. Moclo has been used for years as a daily use anti-depressant. I don't think any doctor would recomend using rue like that.

Moclobemide should not generally be taken concurrently with other antidepressants,

Sure, but I'm not sure this supports your theory that it's dangerous. Most anti-depressants shouldn't be mixed together should they?

 

[IamMe90]

well, to be fair, the fact that no doctor has recommended the use of rue in the same way as moclo is not really evidence that moclo is any safer. Moclo is a big pharma medication that is much less obscure and doctors are in general much more loathe to prescribe organic compounds than synthesized medication - not to mention the legal RX status of Rue is much less in the hands of the medical community and much more in the DEA's

At any rate, the pharmacology is pretty clear that Rue has all of the safety advantages of Moclo but in a slightly higher degree; it's reversible inhibitor of only MAOI-A as opposed to be the 30% B inhibition of Moclo and the inhibition is slightly shorter in duration. Neither pose a significant thread via tyramine but it could be pretty easily conjectured that Rue provides slightly less of a risk.

but really, they're BOTH fine so just use whichever one you want! I'd choose moclo for the lower incidence of nausea, some would choose Rue for its inexpensiveness and availability. either works and serves the same purpose safely

 

[delta_9]

It's not necessary to experience psilocybin no, but taking a 300mg tablet of moclobemide converts a psilocybin trip into a full-blown DMT trip. With the added benefit of a 2-3 hour longer peak and no nausea. It's the ultimate psychedelic experience.

Yes but as I said earlier, I'm not saying there is no appeal just that there is no actual need.
Btw how does an MAOI turn psilocybin into dmt?
I'm not sure if you were exaggerating or you legitimately made a typo as I find dmt not very much like 4-ho-dmt.

 

[IamMe90]

well, many people report that a high dose of mushrooms with a significant enough dose of MAOI (like the 300mg moclo mentioned) potentiates the experience visually to a degree that resembles DMT. that's what i've read on this forum from a few people, at least.

 

[delta_9]

I suppose that could be.
I've never used mushrooms in combination with an MAOI so I wouldn't know from personal experience.
Although I have used mushrooms in high doses by themselves and didn't find the experience to be all that much like dmt.
Also have used 4-aco-dmt in high doses and found it again to be not substantially similar to dmt.

 

[Ismene]

well, to be fair, the fact that no doctor has recommended the use of rue in the same way as moclo is not really evidence that moclo is any safer. Moclo is a big pharma medication that is much less obscure and doctors are in general much more loathe to prescribe organic compounds than synthesized medication - not to mention the legal RX status of Rue is much less in the hands of the medical community and much more in the DEA's

At any rate, the pharmacology is pretty clear that Rue has all of the safety advantages of Moclo but in a slightly higher degree; it's reversible inhibitor of only MAOI-A as opposed to be the 30% B inhibition of Moclo and the inhibition is slightly shorter in duration. Neither pose a significant thread via tyramine but it could be pretty easily conjectured that Rue provides slightly less of a risk.

but really, they're BOTH fine so just use whichever one you want! I'd choose moclo for the lower incidence of nausea, some would choose Rue for its inexpensiveness and availability. either works and serves the same purpose safely

Whoah, back up a minute IamMe, you've taken 2 minutes at wiki and listened to Dwayne and then ran away with yourself.

I think we need to get back to the real world for a second and consider what happens when you actually take rue or moclobemide. I've taken both and I'd wager that the main reason no-one recomends rue for a daily antidepressant is that it has an array of hideous side effects including powerful nausea.

When I took rue: (And bear in mind this wasn't even enough rue to inhibit MAO - I was just seeing what the side effects were like)

Headache: Vicious
Nausea;Horrendous

I felt like shit for around 2-3 hours.

When I took moclobemide (a 300mg dose easily large enough to inhibit MAO)

Headache: None
Nausea: None

I felt no side effects whatsoever, just a very gentle mood-lift.

Now to me, that's a pretty powerful real-world indication that moclobemide is "safer" and less harmful to the body than rue. And I'm sorry, but no matter what Dwayne says, I'm sticking with moclobemide.

 

[boiledfruit]

I do this to! Seems to hit much slower IMO, because the gelatin capsules have to break down first.
I find around 8 capsules is a perfect spot to be at.

I like this too because you can keep popping them throughout.
I usually eat like 4, then 10 min later eat 2, then 10 min later eat 2 and then maybe a couple more scattered throughout to make the trip nice and looonnggg.

Hmm.. I may try that, stagger them out a bit. But I think the next time I dose up on zooms I'm gonna try this lemon tek thing, seems really cool.

My friend popped a whopping 20 of them at once and said he saw an 'alien' come out of his wall and look at him. If you have seen Donnie Darko, he compared what he saw to the white pillars that come out of people's chests. Very interesting indeed!

 

[Ismene]

Btw how does an MAOI turn psilocybin into dmt?

I'd like to know too delta.

I'm not sure if you were exaggerating or you legitimately made a typo as I find dmt not very much like 4-ho-dmt.

No, I'm not exaggerating. And I'm not saying psilocybin is like DMT. I'm saying psilocybin plus moclobemide is like DMT.

I've taken oral freebase DMT and moclobemide close to a hundred times and mushrooms and moclobemide are exactly the same - only there's a longer peak and no nausea. The people who say it "potentiates mushrooms" probably arn't familiar with oral DMT. Oral DMT is unmistakeable once you've experienced it. Mushrooms and moclobemide is oral DMT.

 

[IamMe90]

well, to be fair, the fact that no doctor has recommended the use of rue in the same way as moclo is not really evidence that moclo is any safer. Moclo is a big pharma medication that is much less obscure and doctors are in general much more loathe to prescribe organic compounds than synthesized medication - not to mention the legal RX status of Rue is much less in the hands of the medical community and much more in the DEA's

At any rate, the pharmacology is pretty clear that Rue has all of the safety advantages of Moclo but in a slightly higher degree; it's reversible inhibitor of only MAOI-A as opposed to be the 30% B inhibition of Moclo and the inhibition is slightly shorter in duration. Neither pose a significant thread via tyramine but it could be pretty easily conjectured that Rue provides slightly less of a risk.

but really, they're BOTH fine so just use whichever one you want! I'd choose moclo for the lower incidence of nausea, some would choose Rue for its inexpensiveness and availability. either works and serves the same purpose safely

Whoah, back up a minute IamMe, you've taken 2 minutes at wiki and listened to Dwayne and then ran away with yourself.

I think we need to get back to the real world for a second and consider what happens when you actually take rue or moclobemide. I've taken both and I'd wager that the main reason no-one recomends rue for a daily antidepressant is that it has an array of hideous side effects including powerful nausea.

When I took rue: (And bear in mind this wasn't even enough rue to inhibit MAO - I was just seeing what the side effects were like)

Headache: Vicious
Nausea;Horrendous

I felt like shit for around 2-3 hours.

When I took moclobemide (a 300mg dose easily large enough to inhibit MAO)

Headache: None
Nausea: None

I felt no side effects whatsoever, just a very gentle mood-lift.

Now to me, that's a pretty powerful real-world indication that moclobemide is "safer" and less harmful to the body than rue. And I'm sorry, but no matter what Dwayne says, I'm sticking with moclobemide.

Well hey now, I did say take whichever you like so you don't have to get defensive. I merely mentioned that both seem pretty benign as far as health goes and that there isn't any real evidence that either isn't.

I also said I'd take moclobemide over rue, so i don't see why you think i'm trying to put down what you're saying. i'm just trying to compromise and point out that it's probably fine to take either depending on one's personal preference.

 

[delta_9]

I'd like to know too delta.

I was being sarcastic. An MAOI does not turn psilocybin into dmt.

No, I'm not exaggerating. And I'm not saying psilocybin is like DMT. I'm saying psilocybin plus moclobemide is like DMT.

I've taken oral freebase DMT and moclobemide close to a hundred times and mushrooms and moclobemide are exactly the same - only there's a longer peak and no nausea. The people who say it "potentiates mushrooms" probably arn't familiar with oral DMT. Oral DMT is unmistakeable once you've experienced it. Mushrooms and moclobemide is oral DMT.

The subjective experience may seem similar, but pharmacologically, the 2 are very much different.

 

[Ismene]

I was being sarcastic. An MAOI does not turn psilocybin into dmt.

It doesn't have to "turn it into DMT". It has to affect your brain receptors in such a way that they treat it more like DMT than psilocybin.

One things for certain - psilocybin in the presence of moclobemide does not behave in the human brain like psilocybin.

The subjective experience may seem similar, but pharmacologically, the 2 are very much different.

You have no idea how psilocybin and moclobemide act pharmacologically in the human body. Absolutely none. And incidentally, if they "seemed similar" I'd have said that they "seemed similar".

 

[Ismene]

I merely mentioned that both seem pretty benign as far as health goes and that there isn't any real evidence that either isn't.

Not quite, you were coming out with all these theories about why doctors won't prescribe rue and that rue is probably "slightly safer". I was just putting you straight. Not being defensive - I'm just telling you facts rather than fantasy.

 

[delta_9]

It doesn't have to "turn it into DMT". It has to affect your brain receptors in such a way that they treat it more like DMT than psilocybin.

One things for certain - psilocybin in the presence of moclobemide does not behave in the human brain like psilocybin.

The subjective experience may seem similar, but pharmacologically, the 2 are very much different.

You have no idea how psilocybin and moclobemide act pharmacologically in the human body. Absolutely none. And incidentally, if they "seemed similar" I'd have said that they "seemed similar".

Well from what you post it seems quite the opposite.
But whatever. I'm not gonna argue with you.

 

[DwayneHoover]

well, I dont doubt moclobemide is plenty safe from the sounds of whats been discussed here, but I would say from what myself and friends have experienced, Ismene might be having some idiosyncratic reaction to SYrian Rue... neither me nor 3 other close personal friends I have done it with on multiple occasions have experienced any of the severe nausea and headache he reports. Nothing whatsoever of the kind. This was on a pharmacologically active dose of 3g of seed, GROUND before ingesting. Zero nausea. Perhaps a very slight feeling of something odd in the gullet, but not even approaching "nausea." Zero headache. No idea why it did that to him, but his "study population size = 1" is not representative of most people, not myself nor those I know nor most others I have read about, so I really think it is silly for him to behave as if it is conclusive proof about "safety". Of course neither is my study size = 4. All just anecdotes, opinions and personal experiences... YMMV, as always. No need to put on a big pointy hat, get up on a soapbox and pontificate, haha.

 

[Ismene]

Dunno Dwayne, I wouldn't like to interfere with your pontificating but there's plenty of reports all over the internet from people who find syrian rue nauseating. Certainly a lot more nauseating than necking a 300mg tablet of moclobemide. Perhaps you and your friends are less representative than me?

 

[DwayneHoover]

Yea, could be, man, anyway, moclobemide would be nice to have on hand, I cant disagree. Certainly not gross like gagging back a bunch of rue seed powder... though as I said no real nausea and certainly not a splitting headache. Anyway I think we've about beaten this offshoot to death.

 

[Unbreakable]

Mushroom Tea - shit hits you fast as fuck
google how to make it