Harm Reduction Gaba b vs gaba a kindling

[Kizaru]

Hi all ,

I would like to know if there is difference in kindling symptoms from gaba b receptor analogs compared to gaba a analogs . I know that kindling is mostly notorious with benzodiazepines and alcohol but less known with gaba b receptor analogs . I am a heavy ghb addict which has a small affinity for the gaba b receptor and withdrawal mostly comes from the gaba b receptor . It always seemed like ghb didnt caused much kindling symptoms and was mostly temperoraly . I can actually go up and down with unlimited amount of ghb if i have baclofen with lyrica and doing that i have never noticed any dependancy from baclofen nor lyrica . So how does this work actually , can you completely block kindling if you always block the withdrawal with the right meds ? Since kindling happens going in and out of gaba withdrawals over a period of years.


Greetings !

 

[Kizaru]

Hi all ,

I would like to know if there is difference in kindling symptoms from gaba b receptor analogs compared to gaba a analogs . I know that kindling is mostly notorious with benzodiazepines and alcohol but less known with gaba b receptor analogs . I am a heavy ghb addict which has a small affinity for the gaba b receptor and withdrawal mostly comes from the gaba b receptor . It always seemed like ghb didnt caused much kindling symptoms and was mostly temperoraly . I can actually go up and down with unlimited amount of ghb if i have baclofen with lyrica and doing that i have never noticed any dependancy from baclofen nor lyrica . So how does this work actually , can you completely block kindling if you always block the withdrawal with the right meds ? Since kindling happens going in and out of gaba withdrawals over a period of years.


Greetings !

Anyone ? Not all at once please .

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I'm not totally sure and this is just speculation, but I believe kindling isn't due to GABA receptors but chronic upregulation of excitatory neurotransmitter receptors like glutamate.

I suppose it could be offset by managing the withdrawal with other drugs.

 

[Kizaru]

I'm not totally sure and this is just speculation, but I believe kindling isn't due to withdrawal itself but chronic upregulation of excitatory neurotransmitters.

I suppose it could be offset by managing the withdrawal with other drugs.

Thats an interesting view , so you mean like upregulation of glutemate and stuff like that ?

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Thats an interesting view , so you mean like upregulation of glutemate and stuff like that ?

Yeah, I think that's how it works. Withdrawal from Gabaergics isn't as simple as downregulation of gaba receptors. Glutamate rebound plays a major role in withdrawal and I'd surmise that has more to do with kindling.

 

[Kizaru]

Yeah, I think that's how it works. Withdrawal from Gabaergics isn't as simple as downregulation of gaba receptors.

Is kindling actually known with other drugs like opioide receptors etc or only seen in gaba related meds/drug ? I am not entirely sure , its probally not completely confirmed yet on how it exactly works . I am pretty sure i have almost zero kindling after years of ghb abuse , but like i said i have almost always blocked the withdrawal and mainly used gaba b .

 

[Keif' Richards]

Like every other response I give, this is from the perspective of an addict who is trying to learn as much about this stuff as possible from the internet. I'm not a doctor and I don't have anything more than a kindergarten level education when it comes to neurology, transmitters, all of that stuff. Everything I say is tempered by my experience and what I read.

With that being said, I've done pretty much all drugs, but my addictions have always been centered around drugs that would be called "sedating". I've used Alcohol, Benzodiazepines, Barbiturates and Opioids. I've been dependent upon them all. Not only that, I've withdrawn from all of these on multiple separate occasions.

I want to stress my limited experience with stimulants. I've used plenty of stimulants in my life, but what seem like countless experiences with Amphetamines and to a lesser extent Cocaine, probably account for less than 5% of my total drug using career. I'm willing to bet that stimulants follow similar principles of Kindling, yet they're going to be interpreted differently due to the differences of the drugs themselves.

In short, all of the drugs I've used and become dependent upon seem to display Kindling Effect principles. Opioids, Alcohol, Benzodiazepines, they all seem to get more severe, more quickly with each successive episode.

I've used Gabapentinoids pretty extensively as well. I believe they also demonstrate Kindling-like effects, but I do agree that there is something that makes them a little different than drugs like Alcohol. For instance, I've taken the same dose of Gabapentin every day for over two years and I still receive benefit from the drug. Whenever I feel the effects of the Gabapentin waning or not doing what I want, generally a two-day break, usually consisting of a half-dose, will set me up for a few more weeks of benefit, but there is management required to maintain all of this.

I don't think it's possible to completely mitigate the effects of Kindling, but by paying close attention to your usage and trying to be sensible, you can avoid the cycle of usage and withdrawal, which seems to be the primary catalyst for the Kindling cycle.

 

[G_Chem]

Like every other response I give, this is from the perspective of an addict who is trying to learn as much about this stuff as possible from the internet. I'm not a doctor and I don't have anything more than a kindergarten level education when it comes to neurology, transmitters, all of that stuff. Everything I say is tempered by my experience and what I read.

With that being said, I've done pretty much all drugs, but my addictions have always been centered around drugs that would be called "sedating". I've used Alcohol, Benzodiazepines, Barbiturates and Opioids. I've been dependent upon them all. Not only that, I've withdrawn from all of these on multiple separate occasions.

I want to stress my limited experience with stimulants. I've used plenty of stimulants in my life, but what seem like countless experiences with Amphetamines and to a lesser extent Cocaine, probably account for less than 5% of my total drug using career. I'm willing to bet that stimulants follow similar principles of Kindling, yet they're going to be interpreted differently due to the differences of the drugs themselves.

In short, all of the drugs I've used and become dependent upon seem to display Kindling Effect principles. Opioids, Alcohol, Benzodiazepines, they all seem to get more severe, more quickly with each successive episode.

I've used Gabapentinoids pretty extensively as well. I believe they also demonstrate Kindling-like effects, but I do agree that there is something that makes them a little different than drugs like Alcohol. For instance, I've taken the same dose of Gabapentin every day for over two years and I still receive benefit from the drug. Whenever I feel the effects of the Gabapentin waning or not doing what I want, generally a two-day break, usually consisting of a half-dose, will set me up for a few more weeks of benefit, but there is management required to maintain all of this.

I don't think it's possible to completely mitigate the effects of Kindling, but by paying close attention to your usage and trying to be sensible, you can avoid the cycle of usage and withdrawal, which seems to be the primary catalyst for the Kindling cycle.

I can only second this. I’ve experienced kindling with GABA drugs, opioids, and others. It’s our bodies fight for homeostasis.

-GC

 

[Kizaru]

Like every other response I give, this is from the perspective of an addict who is trying to learn as much about this stuff as possible from the internet. I'm not a doctor and I don't have anything more than a kindergarten level education when it comes to neurology, transmitters, all of that stuff. Everything I say is tempered by my experience and what I read.

With that being said, I've done pretty much all drugs, but my addictions have always been centered around drugs that would be called "sedating". I've used Alcohol, Benzodiazepines, Barbiturates and Opioids. I've been dependent upon them all. Not only that, I've withdrawn from all of these on multiple separate occasions.

I want to stress my limited experience with stimulants. I've used plenty of stimulants in my life, but what seem like countless experiences with Amphetamines and to a lesser extent Cocaine, probably account for less than 5% of my total drug using career. I'm willing to bet that stimulants follow similar principles of Kindling, yet they're going to be interpreted differently due to the differences of the drugs themselves.

In short, all of the drugs I've used and become dependent upon seem to display Kindling Effect principles. Opioids, Alcohol, Benzodiazepines, they all seem to get more severe, more quickly with each successive episode.

I've used Gabapentinoids pretty extensively as well. I believe they also demonstrate Kindling-like effects, but I do agree that there is something that makes them a little different than drugs like Alcohol. For instance, I've taken the same dose of Gabapentin every day for over two years and I still receive benefit from the drug. Whenever I feel the effects of the Gabapentin waning or not doing what I want, generally a two-day break, usually consisting of a half-dose, will set me up for a few more weeks of benefit, but there is management required to maintain all of this.

I don't think it's possible to completely mitigate the effects of Kindling, but by paying close attention to your usage and trying to be sensible, you can avoid the cycle of usage and withdrawal, which seems to be the primary catalyst for the Kindling cycle.

Thanks for your input. I do believe tolerance for amphetamine builds differently then lets say something like benzo's etc . You could indeed actually see it also as kindling , but at the same time not . Amphetamine gets a different effect profile if abused

Like every other response I give, this is from the perspective of an addict who is trying to learn as much about this stuff as possible from the internet. I'm not a doctor and I don't have anything more than a kindergarten level education when it comes to neurology, transmitters, all of that stuff. Everything I say is tempered by my experience and what I read.

With that being said, I've done pretty much all drugs, but my addictions have always been centered around drugs that would be called "sedating". I've used Alcohol, Benzodiazepines, Barbiturates and Opioids. I've been dependent upon them all. Not only that, I've withdrawn from all of these on multiple separate occasions.

I want to stress my limited experience with stimulants. I've used plenty of stimulants in my life, but what seem like countless experiences with Amphetamines and to a lesser extent Cocaine, probably account for less than 5% of my total drug using career. I'm willing to bet that stimulants follow similar principles of Kindling, yet they're going to be interpreted differently due to the differences of the drugs themselves.

In short, all of the drugs I've used and become dependent upon seem to display Kindling Effect principles. Opioids, Alcohol, Benzodiazepines, they all seem to get more severe, more quickly with each successive episode.

I've used Gabapentinoids pretty extensively as well. I believe they also demonstrate Kindling-like effects, but I do agree that there is something that makes them a little different than drugs like Alcohol. For instance, I've taken the same dose of Gabapentin every day for over two years and I still receive benefit from the drug. Whenever I feel the effects of the Gabapentin waning or not doing what I want, generally a two-day break, usually consisting of a half-dose, will set me up for a few more weeks of benefit, but there is management required to maintain all of this.

I don't think it's possible to completely mitigate the effects of Kindling, but by paying close attention to your usage and trying to be sensible, you can avoid the cycle of usage and withdrawal, which seems to be the primary catalyst for the Kindling cycle.

The thing is stimulant tolerance happen because of neuro depletion of dopamine , or not enough sleep and nutrition . So tolerance to something like amps do happen differently then something like benzo's or alcohol which is the cause of downreguation of the receptor ? I have had a time where i used quite alot of speed , and the more i use the faster negative symptoms occurred . At some point it was almost as if you snort a line and right afterwards you get all the feelings of comedown . But if you quit it pretty much resets so i honestly feel like stims have a complete different mechanism for tolerance .

 

[Keif' Richards]

This conversation is great and informative, but it's probably at the limit for what could be considered basic.

We have a neuroscience sub-forum that you would probably enjoy. You're probably at a level in which you could mingle with those nerds and learn a little bit.

I have an interest in this sort of thing, but I'm way more dedicated to practical application of the philosophy. Those guys really live for the more advanced understanding and I think you'd fit in well there.

 

[Kizaru]

This conversation is great and informative, but it's probably at the limit for what could be considered basic.

We have a neuroscience sub-forum that you would probably enjoy. You're probably at a level in which you could mingle with those nerds and learn a little bit.

I have an interest in this sort of thing, but I'm way more dedicated to practical application of the philosophy. Those guys really live for the more advanced understanding and I think you'd fit in well there.

Hi thanks for the heads up i appreciate it .

 

[sonicwhite]

I do not know much about GHB. I do however know a lot about benzos. It will catch up eventually even tho it's not a benzo it still will and it sucks that we have such profound knowledge in medicine that helps us cope with anxiety but it has a bad part to it I've learned how to wean myself off klonopin. The fact tho is I'm prescribed 900 MG of Lyrica and 3 MG TID of klonopin. So it'll be alot easier for me once I start to reduce the klonopin so I can rely solely on Lyrica. I would any day rather go thru Lyrica withdrawal then klonopin withdrawal. Tennessees laws are so strict and IMHO messed up for those who need these meds. I was also screwing up my life by constantly abusing Lyrica and gabapentin not even realizing how deep of a rut I was in until they yanked me off klonopin 3 MG without any help. Had two Grand Mal seizures back to back. They shot me up with Ativan. It's like they where making fun of me how hard I was struggling. I don't know why the state of TN thinks their so hard. Be aware of those quite ones.

 

[Kizaru]

I do not know much about GHB. I do however know a lot about benzos. It will catch up eventually even tho it's not a benzo it still will and it sucks that we have such profound knowledge in medicine that helps us cope with anxiety but it has a bad part to it I've learned how to wean myself off klonopin. The fact tho is I'm prescribed 900 MG of Lyrica and 3 MG TID of klonopin. So it'll be alot easier for me once I start to reduce the klonopin so I can rely solely on Lyrica. I would any day rather go thru Lyrica withdrawal then klonopin withdrawal. Tennessees laws are so strict and IMHO messed up for those who need these meds. I was also screwing up my life by constantly abusing Lyrica and gabapentin not even realizing how deep of a rut I was in until they yanked me off klonopin 3 MG without any help. Had two Grand Mal seizures back to back. They shot me up with Ativan. It's like they where making fun of me how hard I was struggling. I don't know why the state of TN thinks their so hard. Be aware of those quite ones.

Honestly i have never felt any wd or rebound from lyrica and i have used alot . Its far below benzo's in my opinion . My i ask why 900mg daily ? Is there any beneficial effect above 600mg?

 

[sonicwhite]

To me there is but 600 would suffice too. I love my pdoc who just thought it was a good idea for it. In rare cases like mine I need extensive amounts since I've screwed my brain up twice. Once thru illegal drugs and then monkeying around with the meds my poor doctor was giving me and he died


I still don't know how he died but it weighs on my heart greatly. Did I cause it. Did I make it to where he was going to go to prison? Did he kill himself? I still haven't gotten the answer it's always been hidden from me. His last words to me where I'm just trying to make it easier on you. RIP Dr Holloway.

 

[Kizaru]

To me there is but 600 would suffice too. I love my pdoc who just thought it was a good idea for it. In rare cases like mine I need extensive amounts since I've screwed my brain up twice. Once thru illegal drugs and then monkeying around with the meds my poor doctor was giving me and he died


I still don't know how he died but it weighs on my heart greatly. Did I cause it. Did I make it to where he was going to go to prison? Did he kill himself? I still haven't gotten the answer it's always been hidden from me. His last words to me where I'm just trying to make it easier on you. RIP Dr Holloway.

Why would you think you killed him ? Sorry i didn't follow exactly?

 

[sonicwhite]

Cuz I kept going pharmacy to pharmacy trying to get scripts early and my thought process was he died because the feds closed in on him. Now that's not a certainty but a legitimate fear I have. I maybe just obsessing over nothing. He was 42 yrs old but if he had health issues which he did that I know of. I didn't think it was deadly.

 

[sonicwhite]

OCD is truly a debilitating disease

 

[Jabberwocky]

Anyone ? Not all at once please .

I was on baclofen for about 3 years from April 2018 to June of 2021, for muscle spasticity. I never had any withdrawal, and I haven't heard of anything regarding kindling. I know that some people with conditions like mine can be prescribed hundreds of milligrams of day and then they're taking all of it slowly and then sometimes they're put back on it because they have surgeries and things like that.
That's the only recognized GABA B agonist for human use AFAIK.

That being said, if you're concerned about gaba A kindling, bacopa monnieri. It has been shown to renormalize GABA A receptor density and sensitivity in a mouse model of gaba receptors.

I've used it to help reset my receptors after 20 years of alcohol. I have to say that I can go up and down in my consumption, without really feeling any withdrawal. Withdrawal now I have to still manage my drinking so I try and stay around three drinks a day or less.

 

[Kizaru]

I was on baclofen for about 3 years from April 2018 to June of 2021, for muscle spasticity. I never had any withdrawal, and I haven't heard of anything regarding kindling. I know that some people with conditions like mine can be prescribed hundreds of milligrams of day and then they're taking all of it slowly and then sometimes they're put back on it because they have surgeries and things like that.
That's the only recognized GABA B agonist for human use AFAIK.

That being said, if you're concerned about gaba A kindling, bacopa monnieri. It has been shown to renormalize GABA A receptor density and sensitivity in a mouse model of gaba receptors.

I've used it to help reset my receptors after 20 years of alcohol. I have to say that I can go up and down in my consumption, without really feeling any withdrawal. Withdrawal now I have to still manage my drinking so I try and stay around three drinks a day or less.

For real baclofen is superior med , try this with phenibut and your screwed . The dependance profile of baclofen seems low but can still be severe because its a gaba agonist . I also read in some literature that gaba b receptor upregulate much faster then the gaba a subunits .

 

[WanderingSpirit]

I was on baclofen for about 3 years from April 2018 to June of 2021, for muscle spasticity. I never had any withdrawal, and I haven't heard of anything regarding kindling. I know that some people with conditions like mine can be prescribed hundreds of milligrams of day and then they're taking all of it slowly and then sometimes they're put back on it because they have surgeries and things like that.
That's the only recognized GABA B agonist for human use AFAIK.

That being said, if you're concerned about gaba A kindling, bacopa monnieri. It has been shown to renormalize GABA A receptor density and sensitivity in a mouse model of gaba receptors.

I've used it to help reset my receptors after 20 years of alcohol. I have to say that I can go up and down in my consumption, without really feeling any withdrawal. Withdrawal now I have to still manage my drinking so I try and stay around three drinks a day or less.

This is the first I've heard of Bacopa being helpful in ameliorating kindling. Do you take it everyday to sustain the effects? Or did just a course yield the positive results? I am experiencing alcohol kindling myself and am very interested in your solution.