First experience with Piracetam and 2 different MDMA batches

[fasterfb]

She actually added it to her MDMA supplementation holding page over here: http://beyondtheparallax.com/mdma-supplementation/

Thank you for the link @Lana Rain
I will definitely add Astaxanthin and Resveratrol to my routine. I am currently using all of the other recommended supplements listed on her page.

I find it interesting that the site states "My friend replaced Vitamin C with Astaxanthin because unlike Vitamin C, Astaxanthin does not become a pro-oxidant ."
That's the first time that I've heard of Vitamin C being a "pro-oxidant". I'll have to look into that.

I can say that the "3 month" rule is very regurgitated and based off of what I experienced, as well as everyone else I know, it tends to greatly exaggerate the actual damage MDMA can cause.

I agree. I can't find any scientific evidence supporting the '3 month rule' as best practice. Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen it. I think it has become somewhat MDMA folklore.
I mean, less frequent use of ANY drug would be less harmful I guess, based on common sense.

while I won't recommend it to most people, especially those who know they are not disciplined enough to safety protocols

Yes true. I suppose the 3 month rule would be a good rule of thumb for those using little/no other safety protocols.

 

[indigoaura]

@Lana Rain I appreciate all your research and analysis. All I can do is reiterate what @Swim15 said. If you feel like tolerance can never happen to you, or that you are doing all the right things to avoid it, you may at some point be in for a very unpleasant surprise. I stuck to the once a month rule in my early years of use, and I took all the supplements recommended at that time, read all the research etc. I had an amazing time and thought that amazing time would be there for me always. Now, I don't feel "it" anymore and don't know if its the drugs or if its me and that really sucks. A little restraint early on may go a long way.

You also mentioned, "only using the substance to talk to your friends," but although pleasant, not everyone finds that the most enjoyable aspect of the experience.

 

[Negi]

Re: the grapefruit juice and MDMA to MDA metabolism discussion in this thread, I would recommend people read this reddit comment thread by Matthew Baggott, a leading MDMA researcher.

To quote a section:

The idea that 3A4 converts MDMA to MDA is a Reddit rumor. There's no basis for it in the literature, which indicates 2B6 and 1A2 are important. Also, MDA forms very slowly, so there isn't much while you're rolling and it has low concentrations compared to MDMA. In one study, MDMA peaked in the blood around 222 ng/ml while MDA peaked at 13 ng/ml. People trying to sell gum and other products are unfortunately very persistent.

I am further skeptical of the theory that MDA is important for the toxicity of MDMA. If the dihydro metabolite of MDA is toxic, the dihydro metabolite of MDMA ought to be equally toxic. While there is some research suggesting that specific MDA metabolites are toxic, this doesn't mean the analogous MDMA metabolites are not. In addition, there was a failure to replicate the finding that the MDA metabolite is directly neurotoxic to the brain. Some of the potential toxic metabolites have very different patterns of toxicity than we see with MDMA, which has never been explained by those who believe in the toxic metabolites theory. Also, whether or not these metabolites are important to toxicity, no one has yet shown in animals that altering MDMA metabolism protects against its toxicity, despite trying. And if the low concentrations of MDA that we see after people take MDMA caused neurotoxicity, then low doses of MDA should be neurotoxic in animals, which is not the case. To me, the most likely theory is still that MDMA itself becomes neurotoxic at high doses and other factors can increase its toxicity. Similarly, the most likely theory to me for why MDA might be more neurotoxic is that it's mildly psychedelic and a better dopamine releaser than MDMA and both these things seem to increase neurotoxicity.

 

[Swim15]

Thank you for the link @Lana Rain
I agree. I can't find any scientific evidence supporting the '3 month rule' as best practice. Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen it. I think it has become somewhat MDMA folklore.
I mean, less frequent use of ANY drug would be less harmful I guess, based on common sense.

There was a study where SERT transporter density (and maybe intercellular levels? Can’t remember) recovered in most subjects at the 3 month mark. Some a little sooner and some a little later. That’s where that came from.

That guys post was a lot of pseudoscience. There is plenty of literature about long term MDMA users having less functional cognitive ability but just look at the people who are frequent users. That’s much more definitive in my opinion. Everyone here knows people who have abused MDMA and few are the same after. Anxiety ridden, depressed, decreased sociability, short term memory issues, etc. Effects of abuse of MDMA is on par or greater than any other stimulant drug.

Was also gonna comment on the fact that grapefruit juice isn’t going to impact MDA conversion...the real issues with MDMA come from changes in the SERT (and functionally related) system anyways. All these people asking or thinking that there needs to be some outright literature stating obvious neurotoxicity are insane. Just because it isn’t immediately ‘neurotoxic’ doesn’t mean it isn’t creating changes in the brains neurotransmitter system over time that aren’t extremely concerning.

Don’t get me wrong, I plan on rolling my whole life but that’s why I keep my use conservative and almost reverent. So I can use for years and enjoy the full extent of it instead of being one of the many people that wake up one day saying the drugs don’t work anymore and/or dealing with the fallout from overuse.

There’s a reason they say an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.

 

[fasterfb]

There was a study where SERT transporter density (and maybe intercellular levels? Can’t remember) recovered in most subjects at the 3 month mark. Some a little sooner and some a little later. That’s where that came from.

That guys post was a lot of pseudoscience. There is plenty of literature about long term MDMA users having less functional cognitive ability but just look at the people who are frequent users. That’s much more definitive in my opinion. Everyone here knows people who have abused MDMA and few are the same after. Anxiety ridden, depressed, decreased sociability, short term memory issues, etc. Effects of abuse of MDMA is on par or greater than any other stimulant drug.

Was also gonna comment on the fact that grapefruit juice isn’t going to impact MDA conversion...the real issues with MDMA come from changes in the SERT (and functionally related) system anyways. All these people asking or thinking that there needs to be some outright literature stating obvious neurotoxicity are insane. Just because it isn’t immediately ‘neurotoxic’ doesn’t mean it isn’t creating changes in the brains neurotransmitter system over time that aren’t extremely concerning.

Don’t get me wrong, I plan on rolling my whole life but that’s why I keep my use conservative and almost reverent. So I can use for years and enjoy the full extent of it instead of being one of the many people that wake up one day saying the drugs don’t work anymore and/or dealing with the fallout from overuse.

There’s a reason they say an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.

I won't disagree with anything that you posted here. I agree that the 3 month rule is safer than what I'm doing.

I will just reiterate what I've stated previously. That a user needs to have great awareness about what is happening to ones body, mind, emotions, etc. And to make adjustments to ones protocol based on this feedback.

 

[fasterfb]

I found this study interesting:
Repeated administration of MDMA causes transient down-regulation of serotonin 5-HT2 receptors.

Basically, MDMA (8 doses; 5-20 mg/kg each) was administered to rats over a period of 4 days....
...Twenty-one days after administration of MDMA however, the number of binding sites for [125I]MIL was back to control levels.

 

[Negi]

That a user needs to have great awareness about what is happening to ones body, mind, emotions, etc. And to make adjustments to ones protocol based on this feedback.

I'm not saying to ignore your body, but we know from experience that you can't actually "feel" neurotoxicity. You can only eventually notice the side effects.

One of the most frightening things about the human brain is how poorly it gauges its own functioning. Things quickly become complicated when you attempt to measure the performance of an instrument with the instrument performing the measurement. In 1969 a Dutch psychiatrist named Herman M. van Praag conducted a series of experiments on depressed patients with 4-chloroamphetamine, a new drug that possessed a significant therapeutic effect and was tolerated excellently; not a single patient complained of side effects. Though Praag discontinued his work in the mid- ’70s, 4-chloroamphetamine is still used widely today, not as an antidepressant but as a neurotoxin for selective depletion and destruction of serotonergic neurons in experimental animals. The point being that humans cannot necessarily feel neurological changes. Many disorders of the brain are accompanied by a commensurate inability to perceive the disorder. The later stages of Alzheimer’s, for example, are characterized by memory loss so severe that the deficits are forgotten.

[Forum] | Gaboxadol, by Hamilton Morris | Harper's Magazine

In 1755 the naturalist Stepan Krasheninnikov observed the Amanita muscaria mushroom’s effects on Russian soldiers in Siberia ingesting it for the first time.

harpers.org

 

[Lana Rain]

Re: the grapefruit juice and MDMA to MDA metabolism discussion in this thread, I would recommend people read this reddit comment thread by Matthew Baggott, a leading MDMA researcher.

To quote a section:

That is very good new information to have, thank you for that. I'll pass it on to my friend who does all of the detailed research. All I can say to that is that the experience we have had after our sessions are over ever since adding Resveratrol has been like night and day compared to before. We already reached a point where there was barely any discernible negatives after a session but adding Resveratrol made it seem like we never took any MDMA at all, so if it is not the CYP3A34 inhibiting what little MDA would be produced then it's most likely other mechanisms or benefits that Resveratrol may add. What's more, the lack of a negative isn't just the next day, but the very end of our sessions even, before we even go to bed. We were able to repeat this same experience with three others as well so it seems to be working for 5 out of 5 different people with 5 totally different diets and lifestyles. I think this is enough to make Resveratrol worth looking into in the future by those who are leading the way on research, especially since Resveratrol is already showing a lot of promise in other fields, which is where it's getting it's popularity from anyway.

There was a study where SERT transporter density (and maybe intercellular levels? Can’t remember) recovered in most subjects at the 3 month mark. Some a little sooner and some a little later. That’s where that came from.

That guys post was a lot of pseudoscience. There is plenty of literature about long term MDMA users having less functional cognitive ability but just look at the people who are frequent users. That’s much more definitive in my opinion. Everyone here knows people who have abused MDMA and few are the same after. Anxiety ridden, depressed, decreased sociability, short term memory issues, etc. Effects of abuse of MDMA is on par or greater than any other stimulant drug.

Was also gonna comment on the fact that grapefruit juice isn’t going to impact MDA conversion...the real issues with MDMA come from changes in the SERT (and functionally related) system anyways. All these people asking or thinking that there needs to be some outright literature stating obvious neurotoxicity are insane. Just because it isn’t immediately ‘neurotoxic’ doesn’t mean it isn’t creating changes in the brains neurotransmitter system over time that aren’t extremely concerning.

Don’t get me wrong, I plan on rolling my whole life but that’s why I keep my use conservative and almost reverent. So I can use for years and enjoy the full extent of it instead of being one of the many people that wake up one day saying the drugs don’t work anymore and/or dealing with the fallout from overuse.

There’s a reason they say an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.

@Lana Rain I appreciate all your research and analysis. All I can do is reiterate what @Swim15 said. If you feel like tolerance can never happen to you, or that you are doing all the right things to avoid it, you may at some point be in for a very unpleasant surprise. I stuck to the once a month rule in my early years of use, and I took all the supplements recommended at that time, read all the research etc. I had an amazing time and thought that amazing time would be there for me always. Now, I don't feel "it" anymore and don't know if its the drugs or if its me and that really sucks. A little restraint early on may go a long way.

I think a lot of the people who say they followed their protocols and listened to the research, and took supplements, I think many of them are either overestimating how well they followed through with those protocols and even more importantly I really do believe a huge factor is in how people spend their time while on MDMA. I think a bigger factor than just pre-loading on supplements is whether or not you're doing physically active activities during the session. Sex may feel amazing on it but I refrain from it because of the increase in body heat for example. This is mainly why I don't recommend people to go out dancing on it, especially in an uncontrolled environment like a rave where you have no control over whether the AC is on the coldest setting or not.

This is a substance that requires respect and no one should be looking for shortcuts around their protocols or looking for ways to excuse certain things that they know can lead to post-session fatigue or potential neurotoxicity. I also believe people should not be starting their MDMA session at the end of their day or near the end of their day. Stretching out your waking hours, MDMA or not, is not healthy for you overall, and is why I have been doing mine at the first part of my day and then sleep at around my 16th-18th hour being up. Ironically, the days I end up staying up way past that are actually the days I work on projects lol.

Also yes, I remember that SERT transporter density study.

You also mentioned, "only using the substance to talk to your friends," but although pleasant, not everyone finds that the most enjoyable aspect of the experience.

I understand, and that is going to be totally up to the user to listen to how their body reacts throughout their time if they plan on intermittently dosing on MDMA at certain intervals throughout their life, but as I explained with the factors above, I think your mileage may vary depending on so many factors. I do not feel fatigue or depressed or any level of "not normal" from any of my MDMA sessions for years now, and I do not plan on ever skirting around my own protocols or safety measures just because of that and I think that level of discipline is very important.

 

[fasterfb]

I think this is enough to make Resveratrol worth looking into in the future by those who are leading the way on research, especially since Resveratrol is already showing a lot of promise in other fields, which is where it's getting it's popularity from anyway.

@Lana Rain
What is your protocol for Resveratrol usage? How much do you take and when/how often do you take it when doing MDMA? Do you also use it in the weeks between MDMA usage?
Thanks!

 

[Jmoda]

@Lana Rain I appreciate all your research and analysis. All I can do is reiterate what @Swim15 said. If you feel like tolerance can never happen to you, or that you are doing all the right things to avoid it, you may at some point be in for a very unpleasant surprise. I stuck to the once a month rule in my early years of use, and I took all the supplements recommended at that time, read all the research etc. I had an amazing time and thought that amazing time would be there for me always. Now, I don't feel "it" anymore and don't know if its the drugs or if its me and that really sucks. A little restraint early on may go a long way.

You also mentioned, "only using the substance to talk to your friends," but although pleasant, not everyone finds that the most enjoyable aspect of the experience.

Im sure you have already, but have you tried piracetam?? Definitely brings "it" back, but unfortunately for some, at the cost of the body high.

 

[indigoaura]

Im sure you have already, but have you tried piracetam?? Definitely brings "it" back, but unfortunately for some, at the cost of the body high.

I tried piracetam a very long time ago. At the time, I did not feel like the added boost to the roll was worth the "sped up" feeling that it gave me in my day to day life.

 

[Jmoda]

I tried piracetam a very long time ago. At the time, I did not feel like the added boost to the roll was worth the "sped up" feeling that it gave me in my day to day life.

So, obviously everyone is different, but I think you can just do a megadose (~3g) before your roll, rather than taking it for any sustained length of time. Might be the best of both worlds option!

 

[fasterfb]

Definitely brings "it" back, but unfortunately for some, at the cost of the body high

I do not feel any suppression of the body high while using piracetam at all.
The only negative that I've experienced is that it does seem blunt the effects of K a bit (which I like to take later on in the roll).

At the time, I did not feel like the added boost to the roll was worth the "sped up" feeling that it gave me in my day to day life

It's funny how ones unique body chemistry affects different substances. I find daily use of piracetam to be somewhat anxiolytic.
Maybe try Jmoda's advice and take some only pre-roll.
You probably don't need a megadose if you are particularly sensitive to it though.
I would guess around 1 gram would give you a good boost.