Benzos Fallen in love with Xanax, got some questions about combining with opioids and avoiding dependence

[pinealgland1]

I think I have found my new drug of choice. Had been using stimulants heavily like meth, vyvanse, amphetamine paste, ritalin, etc. and thought they were my DOC, but I've totally fallen in love with alprazolam and it's shown me just how much stimulants were just something I did looking for fun, but always ended in sorrow and despair. I won't get into it here but stimulant use was ruining my life, causing me to engage in risky behaviour, excessive porn consumption, yeah, basically turned me into a monster. I would say I enjoy MDMA and Psychedelics more than Xanax, infact, when I first tried 2CB I thought "In my 7 years of drug use this is exactly what I've been searching for!" so maybe 2CB is my true drug of choice, but xanax is coming in at a close second.

I have been able to go into a barbers and get a haircut for the first time in 2 years, I usually have extreme anxiety around getting a haircut (I am diagnosed with ASD) but I felt completely fine and managed to talk with the barber exactly what I wanted done with no fuss. I have also found the Xanax makes me less anxious of what other people think of me, which is a big problem for me, I was playing My Chemical Romance out of my speakers at home, which I would usually be scared to do because I have some kind of trauma of when my biological father basically bullied me for liking them when I was a kid.

I feel more chatty and like I have found myself again, I have been through HELL with stimulant use, it ruined me, I didn't realise how much of my soul it tore apart. The Xanax makes me feel human again, and happy, and I feel like I can finally breathe properly, it's weird.

I avoided benzos for so long because I have had bad experiences with blackouts, from drugs and alcohol, where I do things I would never normally do and got arrested a few times. This time I have been able to totally control myself with my usage. I take 1 or 2mg and that's it, I feel no need to compulsively redose, and I make sure to avoid alcohol when I take them. Maybe that control just comes with age.

Last night I mixed 5 grams of Bali Gold Red Strain Kratom, 60mg of codeine and 2mg of alprazolam, and had such an great high. It was dope. My question is, I want to try 40mg of oxycodone which I have a lot of experience with, and would like to try combining Xanax with it. I have 1mg xanax pills, I think 1mg would be safer, but would really like to try 2mg, so 40mg of oxy and 2mg of alp. I know the dangers are respiratory depression and overdose, and I don't really want to die but I think this combo would feel amazing. If anyone has any info here on what I should do, 1mg, 2mg, or just skip the alp completely and do straight oxy.

I'm also going to pick up some diazepam to see how i like it compared to the alprazolam because I like the punch of the alp but feel like it wears off too fast. I have tried diazepam before but it has been years. Here's the thing I'm worried about, dependence and addiction. In my head, I'm thinking that because xanax is out of your system SO much faster than valium, that you could take it more often without becoming dependent on it. I'm not sure so if you know please explain how it works, basically I'm asking how often can I take xanax without becoming dependent on it and going through withdrawals. Also the same question for diazepam.

I figure a lot of people drink alcohol almost daily, but do not become dependent on it and experience withdrawal when they don't have it. I do NOT want to go through benzo withdrawal. I know it's the worst of the worse. I just want to use it recreationally here and there, not a drug that I'm on 24/7.

Sorry for the long post, any answers/advice will be highly appreciated

Thank You and Namaste

 

[negrogesic]

If you experience such profound relief from benzodiazepines you are also at profound risk for addiction.

Benzodiazepines are quite abit different than alcohol, in that yes, some people can drink moderately every night for years and stop cold turkey without withdrawal symptoms (myself included). This is not possible with benzodiazepines.

I would recommend limiting usage to a minimum of once every 10 days or so. Benzo withdrawal is one of the worst things a human can experience, i know I've never been same since. Heavy use can make GABA receptors permanently insensitive to the effect of endogenous GABA.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I will echo the sentiment of negrogesic - you seem to be poly substance addict and while you certainly could benefit from alprazolam if taken per need at this point you won't. I don't think you will give a second thought to warnings about benzo abuse but I would look up stories about benzo withdrawal from BL members. They are not nice. I don't know how significant this sentence will be for you at this time but you are in high risk for OD and death. Combining alprazolam that you have fallen in love due to its anxiolitic and sedative effects with potent opioids is a fast way towards grave. Please slow down cause you're uninhibited from alprazolam and are not thinking clearly. I know I sound like a preacher but please reflect. Give this OP to somebody you trust and see how they react. I am glad that you found something for anxiety but you are too uninhibited and are making poor judgement calls. Stop taking benzos and opioids for a month and revisit the plan then. I do not judge I care. For any member of BL but also for people who can't get benzos and opioids because other people misuse them so hard that they end up dead which plays into narrative that almost nobody should be prescribed benzos and opioids. Please reconsider your motives, thoughts and actions. Sorry for the buzz kill but this sounds very troublesome. We are here if you need some HR advice. Or just to talk. Take care man.

 

[JackARoe]

^ I recently read a thread. I think it is called who has taken benzos for 10 years or more. (if you filter on benzos and then go to about page 35 in other drugs the post is there). But one of the members was talking ceiling effect and his habit got so big he could drink a gram or clonazolam or flubromazolam. He/she said all it did was stop seizures. They carried a fruity drink loaded with strong benzos and drank from it all day. No real effect except to avoid seizures. Incredible how tolerance can go that high. Makes me wonder what happened to that person.

I guess what I am trying to say is it is important to listen to negrogesic and Sunyecho and do your research. Someone even said any benzo schedule, even once a week will escalate to dependence as person keeps increasing.

However saying all that I know a few people under a doctors care and take benzos for various ailments and they use as directed and are fine. But a post titled falling in love with xanax is not a good sign for a good start. I think the people with experience speak wisdom. The notion of permanent issues is scary and avoidable.

Use it as a medicine, the moment you take it 3 times a week is a sign to back off.

 

[yubacity]

You feeling real good at the moment because you did not build a tolerance to it. When I first tried heroin it was mint everything I hated about my fucked up head went away same as when I first tried pregabalin but once tolerance builds you just taking more and more and just keeping wd at bay. I might be wrong about benzos because as big a junkie as I am the horror stories from people who tried to get of them scare the shit out of me

 

[Jabberwocky]

@pinealgland1 I am re-reading my post and I see that I went a bit too aggressive. I don't want to insult you as you seem to be experienced with all kind of substances. You are doing the right thing with asking questions and informing yourself here. I just felt that you were too enthusiastic about alprazolam, especially cause you were talking about combining it with oxycodone.

Sorry for this post, but the length is cause I want to be helpful. I am dependent on benzos. Have been for 20 years now. Here is condensed and pretty precise story about my substance use https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/better-late-than-never.890342/. It's also lengthy but I linked it so you can see that I am not pulling stuff from my ass.

I was successful in quitting almost every single substance I became dependent upon, including 6 years of hard opioids (morphine/oxycodone/methadone) with 3 years on buprenorphine at the end of the stretch. Or cigarettes, after 15 years of smoking and while still taking amphetamines recreationaly... I was able to stop it all - except benzodiazepines. And I don't even have personality for which benzos are well suited to treat some disorder...

You can find out why I was prescribed benzos if you read the thread I linked, but in short, i was forced to take them and was not even aware of dangers back then. This was, as I said, 20 years ago and I am still taking them just to stay out of the withdrawal. At the moment I am prescribed 6mg of clonazepam but I take 1-2mg daily. I can get prescribed any benzo that is available in my country including alprazolam, and I have tried every single one.

Why all this talk? Maybe the intro is too long but I wanted to make a post that is more helpful than the fist one that is too alarmist. I understand the dangers of both opioids and benzos and that's why I reacted the way I did. I don't think opioids or benzos (or combination of the 2) are "bad" intrinsically. This are substances that help many people. It seems that potentially you are one of the people who could benefit from benzodiazepines. To be open about it - I got chills while reading your OP. You seemed a bit manic which benzos can induce. Either by relieving of anxiety or by having a paradoxically stimulating effect. I was manic few times from benzos and many times from amps. You spoke about amps and I hear you. One of the great thing about amps though is that withdrawal is very limited. I am talking about physical withdrawal.

Now back to your post. First thing that alarmed me was the phrasing.

but I've totally fallen in love with alprazolam

I understand this feeling as I got it with mdma but it is dangerous when talking about benzodiazepines or opioids. I am glad that you have found a class of drugs that can help you. It is great that you have been able to do the things you were unable to do before and relieve some heavy burdens as you describe.

I have been able to go into a barbers and get a haircut for the first time in 2 years, I usually have extreme anxiety around getting a haircut (I am diagnosed with ASD) but I felt completely fine and managed to talk with the barber exactly what I wanted done with no fuss. I have also found the Xanax makes me less anxious of what other people think of me, which is a big problem

What I didn't find so great is that you speak about previous benzo induced blackout and how now you can control it and use them safely. Then, in the same breath you write:

Last night I mixed 5 grams of Bali Gold Red Strain Kratom, 60mg of codeine and 2mg of alprazolam, and had such an great high.

Having no or very little tolerance to benzos and mixing them with opioids is a very bad idea. I don't know where you stand with opioids but I believe that you don't have a huge tolerance if 5G of kratom and 60mg of codeine is something that makes you "dope". Don't get me wrong, it is great to have low tolerance for opioids I am just trying to dissect your post and write a helpful response. Going from kratom and 60mg of codeine to 40mg of oxycodone is quite a leap. Especially if you are adding other sedatives that you are not tolerant to.

My question is, I want to try 40mg of oxycodone which I have a lot of experience with, and would like to try combining Xanax with it. I have 1mg xanax pills, I think 1mg would be safer, but would really like to try 2mg, so 40mg of oxy and 2mg of alp. I know the dangers are respiratory depression and overdose, and I don't really want to die but I think this combo would feel amazing. If anyone has any info here on what I should do, 1mg, 2mg, or just skip the alp completely and do straight oxy.

I really hope that you will/have reconsidered and lowered the dosage od oxycodone cause you will become tolerant (read dependent) on opioids in really short time with this kind of dosages. Especially if you used them before. There is a good side of being dependent on opioids in the past - OD is less probable as your body adopts to dosages you were taking in a matter of days or one week. But it is always unsafe to mix opioids with any sedative, especially if you don't have the tolerance for that sedative. But I am repeating myself. This is what alarmed me and I wanted for you to first stay alive. If I was over the top - I apologise.

The reason I was and still am afraid is that your goals imply that you have got no true tolerance to opioids either. I rationed that you wouldn't be so worried about addiction per se if you were already dependent on opioids. You stated:

Here's the thing I'm worried about, dependence and addiction.

I do NOT want to go through benzo withdrawal.

I just want to use it recreationally here and there, not a drug that I'm on 24/7.

The thing is that benzos are a terrible pick for recreational use. They might help you for anxiety, fobia and related issues but if you start using them recreationally you will become dependent almost certainly. Using benzodiazepines per need is challenging enough, but when the person who finds them recreational starts to use them - I don't see the way that is not leading to dependency. No matter the benzo. If you start to use benzos regulary, and by that I mean 2-3 times a week, you will become dependent. No matter the half-life or duration of action of a particular benzo in question.

If you decide to use benzos than only good and responsible way to use them is for medical purpuses. Be it per need without becoming. dependent or every day knowing fully that you will become dependent. If it's not critical for your health I would advise against benzodiazepibe use, but they are a lifesavers in many instances.

Regarding recreational use please reconsider. Using 40mg oxycodone for fun is very risky behaviour. Using alprazolam for fun is very risky behaviour. Combining those 2 for recreation is asking for trouble. Proceed with caution.

I hope that I didn't insult you with my first post and that this one is more helpful. I will be happy to respond if you have any queries or want to talk. I saw that you posted few times before but - welcome to BL.

 

[pinealgland1]

Hi everyone thank you for your responses and Sunyecho thank you for your detailed reply. I have 2mg of alprazolam left and I'm going to take it with some kratom later on tonight. After that I will not buy anymore. I have decided that it's way too risky for me to buy more benzos as I would just pop them constantly. I'm using alcohol currently as a substitute for when I need to chill out.

To respond about oxycodone, I am very familiar with it and have taken dosages as high as 80mg. 40mg is my usual dose. I got sent home from my substance abuse program today because I admitted to them I had taken 5 grams of kratom, 2mg of xanax, and drank 3 IPAs.

I'm using heavily lately because I've been really stressed out. I won't buy anymore benzos. It's not worth the risk. I wish I could still just smoke cannabis but the last time I smoked it I got psychosis level paranoia, I'm thinking about buying just a gram and smoking literal microdoses just to see how I react. It's weird how weed makes me freak out but I'm completely fine with stimulants and psychedelics.

I just can't live sober, I don't know why, but I need something, just that euphoria, it makes everything a-ok. The people in my life currently and the organizations I'm working with are trying to get me clean. I just don't want to quit. I like this life. I like getting high. I don't know what to do. Stimulants are out of the question for me, they destroyed my soul. opiates and psychedelics are all I got left man, Idk, maybe I should just get clean. thing is, benzos are handy things to have on hand in case of an emergency or a situation where you know you will have high anxiety. I just do not want to get addicted, why is everything that feels so good so bad for us. why do we have to live like this. where is God. I'm begging for you God man I felt you before please come back into my life

 

[Jabberwocky]

As negrogesic said - if you can control benzo use to once a week, or twice but not regularly, than you could use them as tools and not become addicted. Kratom is limited (extracts excluded) in its addictive qualities due to the nature of the plant. I would stick with that instead of oxycodone. Especially if you are depressed. Alcohol is much more damaging than kratom. Its complicated world out there. And inside. I am sorry you are suffering. Try not to beat yourself up too much. If doctor prescribed tianeptine or some stimulant SNDRI the folks that judge you know would be like it's all fine cause that it is medication. Well so is morphine or methamphetamine... I am a believer that it is not about "is it legal or not", "accepted by society or not", but that what matters is how it influences your life overall. Some have to avoid cocaine but can drink alcohol, while others are fine with using cocaine while social media or video games ruin their lives. I hope you find peace soon. Everyone deserves it.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Let us try to never combine them people.

Even if you're absolutely a seasoned addict with EXPERIENCE you cannot know the dose combination that will kill you or give you relaxation.

I know that this is not what anyone wants to hear, but I don't want anyone being dead from combining these substances considering the amount that already have died from this combination. Many who died were confident they'd live.. I'm certain of that. They weren't doing it overnight. All who overdosed from a benzo-induced opioid overdose had definitely had experience.. is what I'd think.

I find zero.. absolutely zero positive benefit of combining the drugs. I've taken xanax on oxy a couple of times, so I'm no angel myself. Its just for some reason on benzos I can't feel any other drug effects equally without the benzos. So if I took 60 milligrams of oxy/percocet/whatever on xanax/klonopin, the times I did it was like 10 milligrams of oxy instead lol. The combination is blunted.. and your confidence is enhanced from the anxiety-free effects of the benzos... you are bound to push it. I don't like anyone doing that I'm sorry.

If you are going to use the two day after day anyway, or anyone reading this--please do not combine them at the SAME time. At least wait 3 hours.. and I have no science behind what about I'm about to say, but I think personally its more dangerous to take the xanax AFTER the benzos. Your breathing will be shallow and you may black out and never wake up a gain. 7 hours in between the drugs is a good bridge for someone with slight tolerance of the two.

I'm worried OP that you (with new love for xanax and not much tolerance yet) could black out easily at doses above 2 milligrams and do funny things. I've blacked out on 2 milligrams of xanax and somehow at 6 milligrams more. LOL. The confidence blunted with memory issues being a severe side-effect of benzos when on them is just super dangerous. Especially when you might get all "lets see how high I can get now that I feel care-free!" Sometimes when you black out on benzos, you are still awake and well aware. It won't seem like that until you've eaten a ton of oxy and xanax from blacking out in that phase of consciousness ^^^ Please be careful.

 

[pinealgland1]

Just want to say that I have run out of xanax and won't be buying more. I have also not taken any kratom today which I have been taking daily for almost a month. I feel pretty okay but very tired and slightly depressed. I want to be sober now, I am still interested in psychedelics and may do the occasional trip, but apart from that I'm getting clean, thank you all for your help and harm reduction information, you guys are a credit to bluelight. Thank you all and bless you. Namaste

 

[pinealgland1]

Not feeling great. Think I'm going to fold and have 2 grams of kratom. At least I'm reducing...

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Just want to say that I have run out of xanax and won't be buying more. I have also not taken any kratom today which I have been taking daily for almost a month. I feel pretty okay but very tired and slightly depressed. I want to be sober now, I am still interested in psychedelics and may do the occasional trip, but apart from that I'm getting clean, thank you all for your help and harm reduction information, you guys are a credit to bluelight. Thank you all and bless you. Namaste

That's good. Life is long and there's no way to know how many drugs will be in your life or not LOL.

 

[OCD2DOC]

I've totally fallen in love with alprazolam

Be careful, my friend. You've fallen in love with a potential whore that will hurt you in the end if you get too infatuated. You'll be used and abused if you show her too much love.
My advice is to not get too close. Honestly, if I knew now what I didn't know before I got hooked on xanax I would turn the other way and run as fast as a could.
I didn't heed the warning I got from somebody in my shoes until it was far too late. Hopefully you don't make the same mistake.

 

[Xanniemcfanwie]

So jumping on this thread as it hit a nerve. I have 50x diazepam 10mg.
I’m in bupe 3.6mg a day have been for a year. I was hoping to use it to help me reduce my bupe down to less.
I know there is no blanket answer but how often can I get away with dosing 10-20mg a day without causing a likeliness of Benzo habit?
So maybe one week I try to take 2mg of bupe instead of my 3.6mg and then have some Valium for the next two days.
Then try and take 3mg of bupe for the following week.
How many days should I leave before trying again with diazepam.

I only have 50 and have no intention of buying more but if I hadn’t done the research I’d take it for a week none stop have two days off and try again.

This sound like a terrible idea now but really I just want to know what is ‘safe ish’ to take and for how many days and how many days I should have off diazepam to remain safe from addiction. I know it’s dangerous and I don’t want another addiction. Opiates were bad enough but I’m really high functioning now and things are going well I just don’t see how I will reduce my bupe without something to help me relax at night enough to sleep well.

8 hours sleep is what I need to do well in life And I feel this could be a good idea if done correctly

Thanks in advance. Honestly no need to tel me to throw the diazepam away I just want to be careful.
If it helps I’m 5ft 11, ex athletic, slightly chunky at 195 pounds.

Ex hardcore codeine dyhidrocodiene morphine junkie. No heroin. Started on 6mg bupe and now down to 3.6mg I want to get to 2mg this year and then the hard work starts,

Thanks in advance

 

[Keif' Richards]

Hey @Xanniemcfanwie

Maybe we can set you up with some decent advice. It goes without saying that everyone is different. We're different on a genetic level, we are different in the foods we eat and we're especially different in terms of our tolerances for pain. That being said, we can try to give you a foundation. In the future, you'd be better off starting your own thread. Perhaps one of the other mods reading this who knows how to do things can revise this to your own thread. Not a big deal.

Benzodiazepines produce a noticeable effect often referred to as "rebound" following as little as two weeks of daily, consistent doses, for most Benzodiazepines this implies taking the drug three times per day. This would include you, as you're trying to maintain a constant level of relief from your Benzodiazepines symptoms, so I assume you will at least be taking doses three times per day, hopefully not more. So, two weeks is enough to produce this so-called rebound.

I can say from experience that this is relevant. I've been to psychiatric wards on occasion in my younger years and there was one place that put me on Clonazepam 1mg 3x Daily and I was there for right around two weeks. I was an Opiate addict from my teens, but I was never more than an occasional user of a Benzodiazepine here and there, say, to come down from Amphetamines or Cocaine.

When I got out I had all the usual stuff, as I was immediately and unceremoniously cut off from the Benzodiazepines upon discharge:

-Anxiety
-Hot/Cold Sweats
-Insomnia

This all resolved within 3 days. The first two days were difficult, like being incredibly over-caffeinated and feeling incredibly anxious. Then it was over. I have spent years sharing with others and this seems to be a pretty predictable course of events.

I don't know what you're experience is with Diazepam (Valium) or Benzodiazepines in general, but we'll pretend as if you've never had a prior dependence upon them. For the record, a person with a prior Benzodiazepine habit is likely to catch a significant withdrawal following even 2-3 days of consistent dosing.

You're looking to make a significant drop of like 50% and the fact that sleep is essential for you might make that difficult.

If it were me, I'd take 20mg Diazepam 3x Daily for 8 days I know if I were trying to make a drop like that from Methadone, I'd be taking at least that to ensure proper sleep. This depends a lot upon your personal needs and wants in the process. I don't know what you do for work or if people have eyes on you in the course of your job, or if your job involves a lot of socializing this dosage might be too much, as this could cause you to look visibly sedated.

I wouldn't take more than that. I know some people who could get away with half that dosage of Diazepam, which would be 10mg Diazepam 3x Daily as Diazepam is difficult to anticipate the effect(s) of, as it's a drug that features a lot of variation in terms of potency, as it's more subject to enzymatic processes than other Benzodiazepines like Alprazolam (Xanax) for instance.

Either way, I would limit the time period to 10 days at most. Buprenorphine (Suboxone; Subutex) is a long-acting drug. This would give you enough time to adjust. It's possible that you're on the other end of the spectrum and you're withdrawal symptoms will resolve mostly in the course of 5 days, but I think the hardest part for everyone is going to consist of a time period within that realm. You can modify this advice based upon your personal experience and needs.

If you want to add anything or have anymore questions just hit the thread up.

 

[blxnc]

@pinealgland1 im sorry you're going through this. i just hope i can provide a little hope. i feel like i was in a similar situation to you where i just did not know how to be okay with living life sober, and literally just constantly wanted something to medicate with. in this case psychiatric medications saved my life while i spent time in therapy to slowly work to improve my mental health, well being, and ultimately my life. i'm still a work in progress, but i just wanted to say it is possible to get out of this place where you feel like you need substances to exist contently. prioritizing yourself and doing life in a way that works best for you and your over all stability is the best thing you can do for yourself at each present moment. if you really do want recovery (which i highly recommend to avoid a lot of pain and suffering) just keep seeking it out everyday with the same energy you would to seek out a drug. going places, meeting people, (even online) listening to their advice and learning from them how it works. and really taking their advice seriously.

so you're probably wondering what psych med helped me no longer feel a need to use substances. it's not like all it takes is the medication, it also does require avid persuit of ones own recovery or growth. a recovery group or two, some life style changes, and seeing a *very good* mental health professional (after a very good in patient program) were of great help to me. but the medication is what made all of this easier or possible.

i'm not sure what you're trying to medicate, so that's up to you to work out with a professional. whatever is underlying it is valid and should be addressed. there is no way to completely avoid suffering in life, so 'staying high' is just a great way to compound the effects of that suffering 10 fold, or wind up dead or screwing your life up pretty bad.

the psych med i started with that helped me personally was lexapro, and going to a slightly higher dose was ideal to keep my anxiety at bay so i could at least basically function. and then in situations that were 'triggering' (i have ptsd) i would keep benzos on hand as needed for emergency situations but always gave it 15-30 minutes of concerted effort at calming the panic attacks with natural means (guided meditation exercises, coloring, watching youtube videos helped me- but i've learned so so many techniques and tips from professionals, theres almost an endless plethora of options, and everyone ends up finding an exercise that works best for them, some even. make up their own).

Being ASD there is likely a lot of worth in speaking to a professional who is familiar with working within this arena, helping people specifically like you with their anxieties so you can improve your quality of life... who really understand what will work for you specifically.

I say all of this just to really bring home the idea that while it may seem like you require substances to live, there are other ways and hope to live without them. Keeping benzos on stand by for crisis only works for me personally, but there is a plethora of medications so speaking to a professional (who really listens, spends like 2 hours with you kind of psychiatrist) about what you need to best help you on the daily and in what you would consider 'emergency' situations is ideal.


For me personally I was medicating an unstable mood, depression and PTSD anxiety. So lexapro helped to really even all of that out. There is an adjustment period, and so you do have to sort of let your body adjust to all the changes, and your mind adjusting to dealing with discomforts without the help of substances but rather therapuetic techniques and recovery programs, and life style changes. What i'm trying to say is, it may be a bit uncomfortable at first, it's not like you take a pill and then you're magically in a state of good days and smooth sailing.

Part of recovering is going to be a bit of discomforts at times, but this is a natural part of the process. This is why having support systems around you are important, I found something to keep my head on straight in a recovery group online. There are tons of resources out there if you want it for people seeking help, and I just want to say, keep seeking it like, don't let drugs or whatever cognitive distortion fool you into thinking recovery is not possible. That better days aren't ahead. It is hard, but its a lot better than the extremely dark and painful path of addiction, which only gets worse, in my experience.

I've been there, I was addicted to benzos and opiates, I lived a a'party' life style, alcohol stimulants and plenty of mary jane. I am now sober. Because my story has a PTSD tilt to it, I also was so debilitated by PTSD in my 'rock bottom' I was just laying in a bed shaking for days rocking back and forth, had become agoraphobic, as well. But thanks to all the help and finding the right med for me (which may be different for you so don't just go taking lexapro thinking thats ur 'miracle drug' lol, get psych advice, sometimes it takes time to tinker what regiment works for you)... I was able to take steps toward recovery. It was fucking hard, but shit, if I can go from rocking back and forth in a bed panicking and dissociating, and unable to do even basic things like, driving 30 minutes away. To- being able to travel cross-country long distances, working a good job, providing a nice life for myself. I think it's just a good example, of neural plasticity and the brain's ability to adapt and overcome, with the help of modern medicine and treatment.

Again, it was no cake walk, so be incredibly patient with yourself. but it is possible to reach a point where you're okay without this level of substance-intake.

Some people might think taking a psych med daily is shitty, but many people do need to, and if it helped me feel okay and find some semblance of stability without needing to reach for more extreme measures, I say its a good trade off.

Ultimately you do have to decide if you really want it, and I personally had to go through *years* of layers of my own recovery if that makes any sense. Continually peeling back another layer I didn't know was there to, sort out or work on in therapy. They provided me with great tools to help me understand it and to navigate through it easier, and to strengthen my resilience over time.

I did have to reach a rock bottom before I was so willing to put my previous life style completely to rest, I won't lie. Many people do. The story of recovery isn't perfectly linear, it's not like one day I just put it all down and decided it's only up from here and stayed stone cold sober. Some people report this happening. But I want to be transparent that I experienced a couple shades of rock bottom and relapse before I was willing to fully be dedicated. And even after being what I thought was fully dedicated, there are still slip ups, bad days, mental health or substance relapses, and I had to take those as learning experiences and keep trying to grow from there.

Just being willing to do it for yourself is all that it takes, one very small step at a time. It sounds cliche but its true. So if the place you start from feels small and insignificant just know that it's not. It's extremely significant. At first I set really small goals conquering basic things, like, basic self care, establishing an actually decent sleep routine, and improving my health issues with supplements/diet/exercise. Spending more time in the sun. Then I spent a few years with recovery groups, before I tackled the underlying mental health problems and trauma processing.

However, I think it would of been better in hindsight to do that last part in reverse, mental health problems and trauma processing first- I just didn't find a good resource that really helped me to do so (though I sought it out for years). So it may take some time to find those people and places that work for you, the regiments and life style changes that work for you, the recovery spaces, medication regiments, whatever you need...

But really prioritizing all those needs in every area is crucial, and just not giving up and seeking out a means by which transformation can occur, or growth can occur (in healthy supporting people and places) and pruning your life of its toxicities. And it requires a lot of willingness, to just hear things out, being open to new ideas, being patient about the process as you go through what you go through.

There is light at the end of the tunnel but you do have to put one foot in front of the other to get there, and you may not see it or feel like its possible or within reach at times, sometimes for long stretches of time.

Continuing in substance abuse for me, I recognize was prolonging my own suffering. So that is why I sought change. If something isn't working, try something different. You know?

You're 100% not alone in what you going through, also. So there is no shame.

But yeah, I know what its like to be head over heels with substances, now that I'm in a *really good* treatment program, I would say to my younger self to ask myself *why* I was so head over heels with that life style that was ultimately harming me. Why did I feel like I needed that.

I found out about my treatment program from my *really good* psychiatrist. So that is how you can get good recommendations rather than wasting your time like I did, I tried 3 different treatment centers and countless therapists before I found a really great team. So yeah I've learned, take your references from really good very understanding and well educated resources, who really care. I found out about my psychiatrist via word of mouth. So it starts there just doing avid research into, how can I *actually* get good help. You want quality.

 

[Keif' Richards]

@blxnc you raise some good points.

Keep in mind, I am American and most of my opinions are of an American experience.

There is a dearth of practical, easily obtainable help available for patients in our current system. We have an extensive industry of rehabilitation-for-profit and of a medical philosophy that has in general shown itself to have been corrupted by finances over the common good. The first opinion of many people in the United States is that the means of treatment is not the issue, but the dedication of the patient is the actual problem.

Despite even clear, repeated evidence, I believe the average American believes that their physician would never put profit before care and that to do so would be an insane breach of the Hippocratic Oath. People believe that doctors are more than likely to act in a moral way. Even in the wake of the Opioid Epidemic, the Benzodiazepine Epidemic and the forgotten epidemics of decades past like the Amphetamine craze, the Barbiturate craze and so on, most people believe it was just a few bad eggs masterminding this whole thing from the shadows.

I don't believe that these trained scientists with all of their education couldn't understand theses basic truths that we all know to be true on a deeply personal level.

Benzodiazepines are not meant to be prescribed for periods of longer than 4-6 weeks at most in any situation beyond something like epilepsy. They are not an adequate treatment for anxiety in any way beyond this temporary relief. Yet, you would find a huge minority of psychiatrists that don't prescribe Benzodiazepines on a monthly refill without a second thought. It's not a question, it's a guideline and they all violate it.

The industry of supposedly caring physicians will most often put any responsibility considering medication-related issues squarely on the patient and it is more than often made into a moral issue, a betrayal of the provider's trust as they strived to work in good faith to heal you. If someone messes up at a pain clinic, say, they run out 4 days early on one too many occasions, it's pretty common practice to rapidly withdraw them.

It doesn't really matter how fast they withdraw someone, as their is really no ethically-defined way of withdrawing someone from drugs. When your file changes from patient to addict, it's really whatever the hell that doctor wants to do and he or she is not gonna be doing themselves any favors by keeping a dangerous drug addict as their patient.

Benzodiazepines are rough business especially, I feel, as most people are pretty unaware of the stakes when they're given a prescription. They're not typically informed of recent research into chronic-Benzodiazepine usage and what basically amounts to destruction of the mind. The effects of these drugs are subtle. If you ask someone who has taken Morphine, they will more than likely be able to tell you that they know they're dealing with something that could easily become very fucked up for them. People who use Benzodiazepines might not be aware of a problem at all until several years in of constant scripts when their doctor retires.

One of the reasons I feel Bluelight is so big as a resource is because people can't get these resources from their doctors. Most doctors have extremely limited knowledge of addiction and basically no knowledge regarding topics we often discuss like:

How long does it take to become dependent?

How often do I have to use and/or at what dose to become dependent?

At what dosage is it medically safe to withdraw at home and at what point is a hospital stay necessary?

They don't know anything about these topics and most are not eager to learn. I don't know if it's because there is little profit in comprehensive addiction treatment on a large scale or simply because addicts are seen as failed individuals, but most doctors have extremely scant practical, physical knowledge of these things. Most doctors I talk to are not aware of the concept of Post Acute WIthdrawal as a phenomenon and I've amazed several doctors (including some who worked at drug detoxes) at the phenomenon of The Kindling Effect. These are just not well-understood.

People like Dr. Heather Ashton for example who has written the most comprehensive treatise on Benzodiazepine dependence and withdrawal in history are not common. They are the outliers in these things. My main point is that there are people who genuninely care like the Dr. Ashton and they're willing to put in the work, learn the things and help people. Doctors who are willing to do everything necessary to treat these dependencies are extremely uncommon.

If you're able to locate someone with the knowledge and dedication, that's amazing, but they are hard to find. I feel the best course of action is to learn as much as you can for yourself from resources like BL and the internet at-large and then combine and share that knowledge with your physician and attempt to fill in the gaps in that physician's knowledge with your own. If you have a doctor dedicated to doing the right thing and dedicated to you, they will be willing to hear you out on what you have learned. This all will be combined with "real life" things like finding happiness and contentment outside of the drugs to hopefully make for a true recovery.

It's not easy when you're told to put all of your trust into these people and to find out they're not as altruistic as you thought, but there are people out there and you should never stop trying to find them.

 

[Xanniemcfanwie]

Hey @Xanniemcfanwie

Maybe we can set you up with some decent advice. It goes without saying that everyone is different. We're different on a genetic level, we are different in the foods we eat and we're especially different in terms of our tolerances for pain. That being said, we can try to give you a foundation. In the future, you'd be better off starting your own thread. Perhaps one of the other mods reading this who knows how to do things can revise this to your own thread. Not a big deal.

Benzodiazepines produce a noticeable effect often referred to as "rebound" following as little as two weeks of daily, consistent doses, for most Benzodiazepines this implies taking the drug three times per day. This would include you, as you're trying to maintain a constant level of relief from your Benzodiazepines symptoms, so I assume you will at least be taking doses three times per day, hopefully not more. So, two weeks is enough to produce this so-called rebound.

I can say from experience that this is relevant. I've been to psychiatric wards on occasion in my younger years and there was one place that put me on Clonazepam 1mg 3x Daily and I was there for right around two weeks. I was an Opiate addict from my teens, but I was never more than an occasional user of a Benzodiazepine here and there, say, to come down from Amphetamines or Cocaine.

When I got out I had all the usual stuff, as I was immediately and unceremoniously cut off from the Benzodiazepines upon discharge:

-Anxiety
-Hot/Cold Sweats
-Insomnia

This all resolved within 3 days. The first two days were difficult, like being incredibly over-caffeinated and feeling incredibly anxious. Then it was over. I have spent years sharing with others and this seems to be a pretty predictable course of events.

I don't know what you're experience is with Diazepam (Valium) or Benzodiazepines in general, but we'll pretend as if you've never had a prior dependence upon them. For the record, a person with a prior Benzodiazepine habit is likely to catch a significant withdrawal following even 2-3 days of consistent dosing.

You're looking to make a significant drop of like 50% and the fact that sleep is essential for you might make that difficult.

If it were me, I'd take 20mg Diazepam 3x Daily for 8 days I know if I were trying to make a drop like that from Methadone, I'd be taking at least that to ensure proper sleep. This depends a lot upon your personal needs and wants in the process. I don't know what you do for work or if people have eyes on you in the course of your job, or if your job involves a lot of socializing this dosage might be too much, as this could cause you to look visibly sedated.

I wouldn't take more than that. I know some people who could get away with half that dosage of Diazepam, which would be 10mg Diazepam 3x Daily as Diazepam is difficult to anticipate the effect(s) of, as it's a drug that features a lot of variation in terms of potency, as it's more subject to enzymatic processes than other Benzodiazepines like Alprazolam (Xanax) for instance.

Either way, I would limit the time period to 10 days at most. Buprenorphine (Suboxone; Subutex) is a long-acting drug. This would give you enough time to adjust. It's possible that you're on the other end of the spectrum and you're withdrawal symptoms will resolve mostly in the course of 5 days, but I think the hardest part for everyone is going to consist of a time period within that realm. You can modify this advice based upon your personal experience and needs.

If you want to add anything or have anymore questions just hit the thread up.

Hey @Xanniemcfanwie

Maybe we can set you up with some decent advice. It goes without saying that everyone is different. We're different on a genetic level, we are different in the foods we eat and we're especially different in terms of our tolerances for pain. That being said, we can try to give you a foundation. In the future, you'd be better off starting your own thread. Perhaps one of the other mods reading this who knows how to do things can revise this to your own thread. Not a big deal.

Benzodiazepines produce a noticeable effect often referred to as "rebound" following as little as two weeks of daily, consistent doses, for most Benzodiazepines this implies taking the drug three times per day. This would include you, as you're trying to maintain a constant level of relief from your Benzodiazepines symptoms, so I assume you will at least be taking doses three times per day, hopefully not more. So, two weeks is enough to produce this so-called rebound.

I can say from experience that this is relevant. I've been to psychiatric wards on occasion in my younger years and there was one place that put me on Clonazepam 1mg 3x Daily and I was there for right around two weeks. I was an Opiate addict from my teens, but I was never more than an occasional user of a Benzodiazepine here and there, say, to come down from Amphetamines or Cocaine.

When I got out I had all the usual stuff, as I was immediately and unceremoniously cut off from the Benzodiazepines upon discharge:

-Anxiety
-Hot/Cold Sweats
-Insomnia

This all resolved within 3 days. The first two days were difficult, like being incredibly over-caffeinated and feeling incredibly anxious. Then it was over. I have spent years sharing with others and this seems to be a pretty predictable course of events.

I don't know what you're experience is with Diazepam (Valium) or Benzodiazepines in general, but we'll pretend as if you've never had a prior dependence upon them. For the record, a person with a prior Benzodiazepine habit is likely to catch a significant withdrawal following even 2-3 days of consistent dosing.

You're looking to make a significant drop of like 50% and the fact that sleep is essential for you might make that difficult.

If it were me, I'd take 20mg Diazepam 3x Daily for 8 days I know if I were trying to make a drop like that from Methadone, I'd be taking at least that to ensure proper sleep. This depends a lot upon your personal needs and wants in the process. I don't know what you do for work or if people have eyes on you in the course of your job, or if your job involves a lot of socializing this dosage might be too much, as this could cause you to look visibly sedated.

I wouldn't take more than that. I know some people who could get away with half that dosage of Diazepam, which would be 10mg Diazepam 3x Daily as Diazepam is difficult to anticipate the effect(s) of, as it's a drug that features a lot of variation in terms of potency, as it's more subject to enzymatic processes than other Benzodiazepines like Alprazolam (Xanax) for instance.

Either way, I would limit the time period to 10 days at most. Buprenorphine (Suboxone; Subutex) is a long-acting drug. This would give you enough time to adjust. It's possible that you're on the other end of the spectrum and you're withdrawal symptoms will resolve mostly in the course of 5 days, but I think the hardest part for everyone is going to consist of a time period within that realm. You can modify this advice based upon your personal experience and needs.

If you want to add anything or have anymore questions just hit the thread up.

First of all a massive thank you for addressing my question with such precision and kindness.

I appreciate a new thread would’ve been a good idea I was honestly searching for answers in the search box and I felt this came close to my opinion however I’m not intentionally trying to fall in love with the feeling of getting high as that time period was surely in my 20s. A long time ago.

My story in short is I got to a point where I was off almost everything except a crushing Kratom habit. This was mainly as in the uk they won’t give out codeine or dyhydrocodeine to taper with support from the GP anymore so I was sent to a center called ‘change grow live’ where my only options were metadone or Subutex.
As I had no opiates in my body they wouldn’t help. (Kratom doesn’t show up).

What I’m wanted to try was a cold turkey benzo week. As I had reduced from 60g Kratom to 25 a day. (I researched the thoma method but could never get any benzo, I was too afraid of street drugs and I also was pee tested at work)

So stupidly I took a bunch of codeine and turned up. Did a p*ss test and they said great now we can give you subs. (This is actually the advice the nurse gave me secretly if I wanted help) she did say not to tell anyone but this is the internet after all.
I really relished the thought of not having to dose Kratom 4-6 times a day including the middle of the night just to get sleep.
My life was awful then I was hiding it from everyone including work. However I intended to do a rapid bupe taper expect here in UK the first three weeks you turn up at pharmacy every day and they watch me take it so that went out the window and then I realised I’d have to play the long game.

I then got made redundant last February but I am in a point where I don’t need to work so I am free as a bird living off a widowers pension and my redundancy (long story for another time)

So social wise I can pretty much lie around the house and watch Netflix although I find when I write my music in the studio I sometimes forget to take my bupe because it’s the greatest distraction in the world for my mind.
I do work in a pub at short notice some times so they may call but it’s usually only a 4-5 hour shift. I do it as I love the owners and the locals so also a positive outlet.

Regarding my benzo use. I have owned a strip of 10mg before recreationally but it was back in my 20s and I used it for ‘fun’

Other than that in the early 2000s my doc would prescribe 2-4 x 5mg for my flight anxiety but he won’t now as I have ‘addiction issues’ I understand that but it does also mean I don’t fly anymore which is a shame.

So apart from taking 30mg over the course of a day 23/02/23 to see how I would feel I haven’t taken any benzos before or since.

I found that 1 x 10mg gave great anxiolytic effect and after taking three I couldn’t keep my eyes open and had a great sleep. I spread the dose out from 11am till about 9pm so about 5 hours apart. However I took my usual amount of bupe.

So perhaps with your advice I could try taking 1mg bupe and then 10mg through out day and another 1mg bupe in the evening with the final Valium to help get the sleep started. Maybe a max of 30mg diazepam at first and up it if the withdrawal knocks me about a bit.
I’ve honestly read too many horror stories about opiate withdrawal and now my mind insists I will feel everything which I probably will knowing what I know now. The brain is a powerful being. I know this as before I believed Kratom was addictive I quit cold turkey and was I’ll for a week I went to the doctors and he couldn’t explain my ‘super flu’
I wish I had my withdrawal ignorance back. Ha ha but such is life.

As I have had some diazepam on the 23/02/2023 I will wait a whole week with no diazepam to make sure that my system is clear before I embark on a 7-8 day straight affair?

I really appreciate your advice and thank you for taking the time to respond so succinctly to my exact problem.

Very kind

My current regimen in UK means I have to be at my pharmacy every Saturday to collect my bupe which means even though I am free from work and stress I cannot leave the country or go travel and use my free time to leave and go wherever I want which is in a ‘first world problem’ way quite restrictive. The sooner I get off bupe the more chance I have to be free a start living my intended purpose which I believe is making music and one day I hope to help others in my position.

 

[Keif' Richards]

It's cool @Xanniemcfanwie knowing people feel more in control and less afraid is what makes it worth it to do all of this. It makes my day to know you feel better, truly

It also feeds the uncontrollable, all-knowing ego machine that is Keif' Richards of Bluelight, so that is a plus.

Your description of past Benzodiazepine usage means that all of this Kindling and complicated stuff like that doesn't come into play. You don't have to worry about waiting to start. For reference's sake, this would apply to someone typically maintained on Benzodiazepines daily over the course of months. This would be like you taking 20mg Diazepam three times a day for 6 months to a year before you'd really start dealing with these issues.

You're free of former dependencies on the Benzodiazepines, so this doesn't apply to you at all.

For me, the worst feeling of Opioid withdrawal is the inner restlessness, described medically as akathisia and most-often personified in the form of Restless Legs Syndrome. Some people describe it as "ants crawling underneath their skin" and some describe as a complete physical manifestation of the emotion of anxiety. Everybody describes it differently, but I believe we are all experiencing the same thing through our respective lenses.

There are lots of other symptoms and things going on during Opioid withdrawal, but this feeling of inner restlessness is the North Star by which I calibrate my own maintenance of withdrawal symptoms. The ability to sleep at night for at least 4 hours is also a fairly critical factor. My best advice is to use these two metrics to determine what you need to succeed.

You're in a great position in not having to report for normal work, as this gives you flexibility. A lot of really great people with really great intentions don't make it and for a huge swathe of people, they break their attempts at sobriety and go back to their drug as they have responsibilities they can not reasonably maintain their protocol. That doesn't mean their wasn't a way for them to do it, they just bit off more than they could chew at once.

Your description of the Diazepam 10mg is telling. Diazepam, as I said, has a lot of variance in different people. For me, Diazepam 30mg feels like Clonazepam 1mg at most.

If I were telling someone to try to withdraw from Buprenorphine without any kind of medication aids, I would always, always recommend as slow as humanly possible. This is the most predictable and probably most ethically-advisable way of doing this. However, I am also the type of person that likes to make larger, strategically planned drops over shorter periods of time. There is just something in that method that has always worked for me.

Given that Buprenorphine is long-acting, I don't really think it's a great idea to jump straight from Buprenorphine 3.6mg Sublingually to 2mg SL it might interfere with the philosophy of biting off more than you can chew. There is nothing crazy about trying though and it wouldn't surprise me if it worked for you. If you go this route, I would say, take your Diazepam 10mg 3x per day to maintain over the course of 7-10 days. You will likely experience the peak of your symptoms at the ~72hr mark and start to see resolution after 5 with most symptoms completely resolved by day 10.

These are long-acting drugs we're describing, so a good way of looking at it is 90% resolution by day 10, but that the last 10% could take weeks. That is what Post-Acute Withdrawal is, a lingering, but considerably more mild withdrawal. You'll be 98% resolved at 6 weeks and feel brand new by two months, but I'm obviously shooting from the hip with these specific timeframes. I do feel it's a good way of looking at the situation though.

If it were me personally and I was trying to do the most sensible thing possible, I would take your daily dosage of Buprenorphine 3.6mg and hit in 25% increments. Again, if it were me, I would do 1mg over 7 days then wait 2-4 weeks for the next drop and repeat the process to a tee. This combines a direct approach while also not loading up your plate too much. A lot of people have failed at this simply for trying too hard.

You have the ability to try different methods though. Don't be afraid to test the waters a little bit and see what you can handle. We will be right here if you have any questions.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

OP’s experience sounds like a textbook start of a benzo honey-moon. To divorce as fast after you realize it’s a stupid idea to merry benzochick or many of her friends is a tricky part and often leads to years long bad marriage resulting in emotional, social, economical losses on your part and with profits for her company.