Experience with ketamine therapy for depression

[Chris Timothy]

Well hello, look at this little thread.

I've been coming to terms with having some sort of mental progeria after decades of psychonautics. But let's double-check whether that's not a premature conclusion, shall we? My whole musical taste revolves around non-vocal music for precisely the reason you mentioned, Foreigner, of just not being able to grasp the meanings in real time. Even as a child I couldn't. Very surprised to see this being connected to microdosing ketamine, hot damn!

 

[Chris Timothy]

The sleep deprivation really messes with this setup. Day one was awesome, day two less so, but now at day three I find myself craving more to alleviate tiredness, while it should be time to start spreading out.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Although i enjoy ketamine for its anti depression effects i think alot of people should be depressed.
What i mean is that most people have ni idea what their body/mind even needs to feel good.
We live in a super artificial world today, where most people abuse everything including other people.

Eat healthy foods, get a gymcard and go lift for strength and get rid of that victim mindset.

Being physicly weak makes you mentally and emotionelly unstable.
There is no excuse to let your body rot from inactivity and malnutrition.

I understand that some people feel to shitty to be able to take care of themself.
In those cases some medicinal intervention can be used.
However the main focus should always be to strengthen your entire organism.


There is a reason that ancient civilisations respected strong warriors.
The most famous greek philosiphers were all jacked AF.
If you only live in your mind then you will become delusional and think you understand things you do not.

 

[Chris Timothy]

^That's a rather presumptuous, preachy remark. If you think everyone can do everything the ancient Greek way, then the delusion is on your end.

On topic: I have noticed CBD doesn't appreciably interact with the ketamine. A next attempt to make this regime work could be to incorporate a large CBD dose in the evening to guarantee sleep. I also wonder whether it would be sensible to stop dosing at dusk, as to harmonize with natural wake/sleep cycling.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

^That's a rather presumptuous, preachy remark. If you think everyone can do everything the ancient Greek way, then the delusion is on your end.

On topic: I have noticed CBD doesn't appreciably interact with the ketamine. A next attempt to make this regime work could be to incorporate a large CBD dose in the evening to guarantee sleep. I also wonder whether it would be sensible to stop dosing at dusk, as to harmonize with natural wake/sleep cycling.

Everyone can work on their weakneses.
Even people with nerve damage can find something they can improve in their physical body.
Ive seen people in wheelchairs who are more happy then most people, because they push themself and dont accept their position as a victim.
Its all about changing your attitude to life, and stop expecting happyness from doing nothing.

Most people chase instant gratification and constant dopamine hits that it produces.
Its not about putting vids on IG and getting likes.
Its about setting up realistic goals and pursuing them without excuses.

Anyone who are somewhat healthy should be grateful that you have the oppurtunity to improve and get better on a daily basis.
That will feed a slow and steady serotonin production and put the power of your life in your own hands.

Nowadays most people try to outsourca their health to a dysfunctional health care system that feeds on the sick and weak.
Guess what, if you stop being a cashcow for big pharma then you will know that only you are responsible for your health.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Those damn "philosiphers" and their "weakneses", right?

Society has segregated brain and brawn since the Greeks. It's no use calling a hand a kind of brittle foot any more than it is to call a foot a hopelessly clumsy hand.

Let's not go on any such tangents.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

I dont really see what about my argument is flawed.
Please explain the specific issues you have?

Either one can try to become a strong independent individual who will accept responsibility of ones own well being.
Or you can choose to be a weak and frail person who can only complain and expect others to fix your shit.

Of course reality is a grey area and everyone has different talents.
But there are plenty of phd's who are world class strength athletes while having well above average iq's.

So no you dont have to choose brain or brawn.
Get the best of both worlds and kick ass everywhere.

 

[Vastness]

^ I agree with you, I'm finding it hard to see a problem with anything you've said.

Society has segregated brain and brawn since the Greeks. It's no use calling a hand a kind of brittle foot any more than it is to call a foot a hopelessly clumsy hand.

I think to reduce what Bitchniggaz is saying to just "brawns over brains" is a bit of an oversimplification.

Although that said, it is a pretty simple idea, and not a new one - being physically healthy is important for your mental health. Is this something you would disagree with?

I presume that you took issue somewhat with the emphasis on physical strength and athleticism - although I think it's hard to dispute that these are very worthwhile goals, the argument can be re-interpreted as simply that working towards goals, any goals which will in the process of achieving them make you a better person, will inevitably have the side effect benefit of raising your baseline level of psychological wellbeing.

Obviously other routes exist to do this, pharmacological agents have their place for sure, and some people are struggling to such an extent that pharmacological intervention might be the only option, but I don't think it does much harm to point out that it may be that there are much simpler options to feel better.

Perhaps you're already eating well, and exercise regularly... or perhaps you don't do either, you've tried, but you just cannot... in either case this advice is presumably not aimed at you. Or perhaps you know this probably would help, but are just not interested in either idea, for whatever reason, and want to pursue a different option, for your own reasons! You are obviously free to live your life in whatever way you choose. But it doesn't mean that this is bad advice for anyone else.

 

[Chris Timothy]

The issue I have is that you're going physio coach on a thread for applying ketamine to mental health. It's the same issue I would have if a ketamine advocate walked into a gym and started pointing out all the silly variations on running in circles.

You might have valid points, but the context you're presenting them in renders them proselytic.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

The issue I have is that you're going physio coach on a thread for applying ketamine to mental health. It's the same issue I would have if a ketamine advocate walked into a gym and started pointing out all the silly variations on running in circles.

You might have valid points, but the context you're presenting them in renders them proselytic.

Thanks, this is a valid argument that you are getting at.
I agree i might have bumbed this thread a bit off topic with my comments.
However i did it for a reason.

I enjoyed the report of self medication experiments that the op shared alot.
But after reading a few posts i started to see a pattern i often find in these threads.
Its basicly people sharing their drug abuse disguisded as some kind of anti depression self medication routine.

Im no stranger to dissios and have battled some semi abuse issues when i was battling chronic back pain.
Where i agree that extreme situations can require medicinal interventions, its still just a symptom blocker.
Doing ketamine or any drug will never fix your underlying issues.
It will always fall on oneself to take care of whatever is causing pain or anxiety.

I also know that emotions can be extremely hard to understand and most people have no idea why they are in pain or cant get anything done because of crippling anxiety.
I know cause ive been there and know many others who currently are.

So yeah i felt the need to share some common sense, since it aint so common anymore.

Most people are very weak and uhealthy, they lack the most basic understanding of what is good for you.
So if even one person gets their ass off the couch and starts to trying to take control of their situation then its worth whatever butthurt im causing with my posts.

I know since the easy way is to try to live with the pain and just manage it with various drugs etc.
But i have never seen anyone truly get well from only doing that.
Even if its natural things like ayahuasca or mushrooms.
They can only give you a path to walk, im not saying everyone should strive to be a world class powerlifter or even have to go to a gym.
But we are made to move around and experience a plethora of complex movements.
That is what our brain has evolved to do for many thousands of years.

Its basicly the last 100years or less that our society has created this artificial system where the most successfull people are sitting all day in front of a desk.
We didnt need to train before since life required alot from out bodies to survive.

 

[Foreigner]

Thanks, this is a valid argument that you are getting at.
I agree i might have bumbed this thread a bit off topic with my comments.
However i did it for a reason.

I enjoyed the report of self medication experiments that the op shared alot.
But after reading a few posts i started to see a pattern i often find in these threads.
Its basicly people sharing their drug abuse disguisded as some kind of anti depression self medication routine.

Im no stranger to dissios and have battled some semi abuse issues when i was battling chronic back pain.
Where i agree that extreme situations can require medicinal interventions, its still just a symptom blocker.
Doing ketamine or any drug will never fix your underlying issues.
It will always fall on oneself to take care of whatever is causing pain or anxiety.

I also know that emotions can be extremely hard to understand and most people have no idea why they are in pain or cant get anything done because of crippling anxiety.
I know cause ive been there and know many others who currently are.

So yeah i felt the need to share some common sense, since it aint so common anymore.

Most people are very weak and uhealthy, they lack the most basic understanding of what is good for you.
So if even one person gets their ass off the couch and starts to trying to take control of their situation then its worth whatever butthurt im causing with my posts.

I know since the easy way is to try to live with the pain and just manage it with various drugs etc.
But i have never seen anyone truly get well from only doing that.
Even if its natural things like ayahuasca or mushrooms.
They can only give you a path to walk, im not saying everyone should strive to be a world class powerlifter or even have to go to a gym.
But we are made to move around and experience a plethora of complex movements.
That is what our brain has evolved to do for many thousands of years.

Its basicly the last 100years or less that our society has created this artificial system where the most successfull people are sitting all day in front of a desk.
We didnt need to train before since life required alot from out bodies to survive.

You're not wrong. Anxiety and depression are complex and often not related to one thing. The modern consumer capitalist lifestyle is destructive to us all. However, please keep in mind that this therapy is specifically geared toward PTSD type depression, which has been scientifically and clinically described as a neurological change. For those of us who have experienced severe, life altering trauma, it doesn't matter how much CBT we do or how much we modify life style, the traumatic brain loop can persist. For me, this loop was remedied with ketamine.

It did not stop all my depression for all times. Like... I still get down because of my other health issues, or the state of the world. There are a million reasons to be depressed, but that PTSD type short circuit in my brain that compromises my logic and ability to feel resolution is no longer an issue.

Ketamine therapy has specific indications and a narrow therapeutic window, in my experience. To be blunt, severe trauma causes brain damage, and ketamine can be reparative on that type of damage.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

You're not wrong. Anxiety and depression are complex and often not related to one thing. The modern consumer capitalist lifestyle is destructive to us all. However, please keep in mind that this therapy is specifically geared toward PTSD type depression, which has been scientifically and clinically described as a neurological change. For those of us who have experienced severe, life altering trauma, it doesn't matter how much CBT we do or how much we modify life style, the traumatic brain loop can persist. For me, this loop was remedied with ketamine.

It did not stop all my depression for all times. Like... I still get down because of my other health issues, or the state of the world. There are a million reasons to be depressed, but that PTSD type short circuit in my brain that compromises my logic and ability to feel resolution is no longer an issue.

Ketamine therapy has specific indications and a narrow therapeutic window, in my experience. To be blunt, severe trauma causes brain damage, and ketamine can be reparative on that type of damage.

Very good points, i agree fully.
Like I said there are def cases where there is some kind of mental/emotionall scars that people will have to deal with.
But i still want to point out that the solution should always have some kind of holistic approach.

After my own experience with ketamine i def see the potential in it being a part of a big ger picture.
It can def take the edge of some quite serious symptoms and seem to improve neuroplasticity when done in the right amounts.
But i still dont think it should be the only focus in a regimen.
So if ketamine can get you going then go for it.
Just make sure you use the emotionall release from it visely.
Since the improvement could be temporary and the window of time where changes can be done might be limited.

I know many people who went on various meds/drugs/diets/plant medicines that were super excited/happy/cured for a few months or so.
Then the mind adjusted like it usually does and their old emotions started to creep back.
Difference now is that they feel as bad as before but now needs to keep dosing to not fall even deeper in depression.
My opinion is that they hoped for a magic bullet and put the power of healing outside of themself.



I did mxe about once per week for over a year, i was on a roll and it totally made me feel on top of the world.
But in the end it totally messed me up and I was so glad when it got banned cause i was to weak to stop my self medication/abuse.

Later i did a bit to much K to deal with the chronic back pain that i somewhat blame on my mxe habit (long story but i think it messed with my proprioception for days after dosing and I could sometimes go train the day after a mhole)

Now ive basicly healed myself by retraining my fundamental movements etc.
So i rarely dabble with K anymore.
But except classical psychs, n20 and thc its basicly the only drug i enjoy sometimes.

 

[GearoftheYear]

Although i enjoy ketamine for its anti depression effects i think alot of people should be depressed.
What i mean is that most people have ni idea what their body/mind even needs to feel good.
We live in a super artificial world today, where most people abuse everything including other people.

Eat healthy foods, get a gymcard and go lift for strength and get rid of that victim mindset.

Being physicly weak makes you mentally and emotionelly unstable.
There is no excuse to let your body rot from inactivity and malnutrition.

I understand that some people feel to shitty to be able to take care of themself.
In those cases some medicinal intervention can be used.
However the main focus should always be to strengthen your entire organism.


There is a reason that ancient civilisations respected strong warriors.
The most famous greek philosiphers were all jacked AF.
If you only live in your mind then you will become delusional and think you understand things you do not.

It's a good point. Everyone can work on their weaknesses and we should (aka daily dosing), but to say gymcard is a load of rubbish. Some people don't want to go to the gym, it doesn't suit them. If it suits you fantastic, keep at it - but don't start forcing other people to. Also some people can't afford a gym card.

The most famous Greek philosophers are dead and they don't come to BL anymore. If we all went to the gym where would we be?

Exercise! Bring back MXE and eat some acid!!

 

[awesome31311]

Still fewer side effects than the shit psychiatrists give you

 

[Foreigner]

But i still want to point out that the solution should always have some kind of holistic approach.
...
After my own experience with ketamine i def see the potential in it being a part of a big ger picture.
It can def take the edge of some quite serious symptoms and seem to improve neuroplasticity when done in the right amounts.
But i still dont think it should be the only focus in a regimen.
So if ketamine can get you going then go for it.
Just make sure you use the emotionall release from it visely.
Since the improvement could be temporary and the window of time where changes can be done might be limited.

It's true, a holistic approach is needed. However, all of the variables in managing depression are beyond the scope of this thread's intended purpose. There are millions of webpages now about how to tackle mental health struggles, so I leave that for others to figure out.

There are no guarantees with any therapy. My long held view is that some degree of depression is part of the human condition. It is our special, existential nature. My inspiration for posting this thread was that it was the only thing that really worked for me in treating lifelong clinical depression. I'm talking clinical, as in... been on medications in the past (that didn't work), been so suicidal that I couldn't go to school or work, my logic was fried, constant brain fog, etc. This isn't just idle existential depression we're talking about.

The only critique I'll make about your above comment is that it's not about emotional release, at least that's not the objective. It's meant to repair a neurological consequence of trauma that prevents both clear thinking and a specific kind of conflict resolution from happening in one's mind. Have you ever met a traumatized person who is in a constant, hyperaroused state, and they are easily triggered into a fear-based memory so intensely that it's hard to function? That's the kind of damage I'm talking about. The original trauma was so intense on the mind that the brain protected itself through dissociation. So now, the person gets scared, but they can't resolve the reason why because the part of their mind that contains the answer is no longer accessible to them.

The brain damage is real. It's been documented over and over.

Rather than an emotional release, ketamine therapy was like a breath of fresh air. I finally had clarity on these old patterns and had the free will to change them. That was the real relief. It wasn't about emotional escapism.

I know many people who went on various meds/drugs/diets/plant medicines that were super excited/happy/cured for a few months or so.
Then the mind adjusted like it usually does and their old emotions started to creep back.
Difference now is that they feel as bad as before but now needs to keep dosing to not fall even deeper in depression.
My opinion is that they hoped for a magic bullet and put the power of healing outside of themself.

I can't speak to the people you know because I don't know their cases. Again, I'll repeat: ketamine is not meant to be a panacea for depression. It has specific indications and contraindications which I hope I've outlined in this thread.

If you think I'm trying to describe a magic bullet, I don't think you've read this thread properly.

Also, what you describe as a relapse without the drug is reminiscent of addiction, not therapy. What was the specific nature of their depression? How did they self-medicate? Which drugs did they use? At what amounts? How often? How long was the trial? What life events happened to them before and after the trial? These are rhetorical questions, meant to demonstrate that depression is complex.

I did mxe about once per week for over a year, i was on a roll and it totally made me feel on top of the world.
But in the end it totally messed me up and I was so glad when it got banned cause i was to weak to stop my self medication/abuse.

MXE is a different drug than ketamine and does not have the same therapeutic properties. They're not comparable.

Later i did a bit to much K to deal with the chronic back pain that i somewhat blame on my mxe habit (long story but i think it messed with my proprioception for days after dosing and I could sometimes go train the day after a mhole)

Now ive basicly healed myself by retraining my fundamental movements etc.
So i rarely dabble with K anymore.
But except classical psychs, n20 and thc its basicly the only drug i enjoy sometimes.

Awesome to hear that you've improved your mental health and your life! It takes real commitment and a relentless self-love to keep chipping away at it which is something that a lot of neurotypical people don't understand.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Hello foreigner.

My post was def aimed at you or your op.
Like i said i really enjoyed it, Esp the twist with the eastern medicine angle.
Def gave it a more comprehensive touch compared just to a regular report.

It was more at some comments like someone who did a gram of mxe per month and called it self medication.
A gram of mxe is almost 10 holes, so i just couldnt see how that was anything except drug abuse masced as a self help regiment.

I do def agree that there are extreme examples where people get totally of the rails from trauma.
And maybe in those cases just living somewhat normal with some medication is the only option.

My experience from my country is however quite different.
I live in sweden where we had it way to good for way to long so to speak.
So from my point of view alot of people here are basicly just priviligied and pussified.
So many here have every oppurtunity in the world but just get stuck in self destructive behaviours and projection.
I guess its the curse of a socialist mindset.

No need to take responsibility since the system is set up to catch you when ever you fall or just give up.
We dont have any war veterans here, just alot of self pitty and decadence.


So how is your health nowadays?
Did you get any permanent effects or are you still doing some regular ketamine cycles?

I do admit that the research about ketamine is very intruiging.
Ive def felt it give me some permanent release from long lasting physical and emotionell issues.
Too bad its so addictive for me, i have no issues if i dont have it around me.
But if i get some then om going to do it all.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Forgot to mention: I can confirm magnesium felt nourishing and mentally smoothing during the experiment. I used the citrate form. Many years ago I had used the oxide form alongside MXE, and I remember being not impressed.

If ketamine's effect on the BDNF is important, which since this promotes neurogenesis it probably is, supplementing with niacin (vitamin B3) can also be considered. Or having strong ginger tea with your cereal and such.

Recent evidences suggest that niacin administration may up-regulate the expression of BDNF-TrkB. In a recent study, it has been found that niacin treatment increased synaptic plasticity and axon growth in rats.

The biochemical pathways of central nervous system neural degeneration in niacin deficiency

Neural degeneration is a very complicated process. In spite of all the advancements in the molecular chemistry, there are many unknown aspects of the phenomena of neurodegeneration which need to be put together. It is a common sequela of the conditions ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[checktest]

I had a ketamine infusion as part of research study a couple of Januaries ago. (Got to have an MRI done before and after, some testing). It was perhaps beneficial the first day, but I actually had quite significant suicidal thoughts the next day/afternoon and didn't notice much by the end of the week, let alone two weeks. I had been interested in the mechanisms and promise behind ketamine, but now have a healthy dose of personal skepticism in addition to scientific distance when it is touted as a cure-all or immense breakthrough. It certainly can be remarkable and hopefully can guide future treatments.

On the other hand I've responded well to memantine which has somewhat failed in many studies relative to ketamine, so I'm interested in the developments of the field. Choosing isomers like esketamine and 'unique' formulations seem a bit like a cash grab for a lot of companies from an old drug, but there has to be a degree of profit in some development. Not that it has to be quite that high, but that's a issue to be worked on. A nice change of pace from some typical monoaminergic approaches (though ketamine isn't just a glutamatergic drug.)

There definitely do seem to be people who withdraw from more holistic views of disorders and treatment, and become solely focused on 'biological' or drug treatments, rather than alternative approaches or combinations. Especially over a long course of illness, some people get stuck in a holding pattern of waiting on drugs or some cure for them. And it can be hard to break out of some of those patterns and take agency, and there are cases where it doesn't happen. But we should try to support approaching biological, psychosocial, and behavioral analyses and treatments, and help people on multiple levels, including ourselves

 

[Chris Timothy]

Yes, holism can't be avoided. But it's a shame to continue to clutter threads with it.

Because while, as we all know, ketamine lends itself for people to go off into the deep, the intention of this thread is in line with solving this as a problem. Pretending dovetailing ketamine use into psychological functionality can't but be an excuse is not very imaginative at best, and incuring opportunity costs at worst, not to mention insulting to the intellectual curiosity of the volunteers involved. It's understandable that such undertaking can be tempting to readers, but if there's an issue there I'm sure reasons not to engage can be found by rational argument and respectful discourse, instead of by projecting one's inner sinner on others and patronizing them accordingly.

As mentioned I haven't been able to replicate any results yet, but two aspects of this protocol are noteworthy thus far:

• structured microdosing seems to provide ketamine's levity without its memory-impairing side-effect
• reward and dose are somewhat disconnected: the buzz emerges as an interplay between barely noticeable amounts and the flow states that seep in afterwards. Once this is seen as perhaps the core feature of this protocol it's not that hard to stick with it. The indirectness forms the basis for the spreading out not to be experienced as a direct loss. It's a feature, not the kind of masochistic frugality that sets one up for excess.

It might work, it might not, it takes experiment to find out for sure. But like all science it requires an open atmosphere in which the method isn't undermined by ad hominem argument.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

I have SAD and feel badly depressed and anxious every winter especially around Christmas. Whenever I feel like this now I take bumps of ketamine weekly and it seriously helps me so much. I can even stop taking my benzos cold turkey and not have any problems (although I do use therapeutic doses for reference) and my anxiety is just gone for a week.

Only reason I don't do it more frequently is simply if I have a gram of ket lying around I'm gonna bloody do it. I end up doing lines instead of bumps and enjoying the disso effects. Too hard to resist the stuff.

Can't wait for pharma ketamine to become available through legitimate means for those with depression and anxiety. Assuming it means I get a controlled dose every week or two it'd be very good for me and likely reduce my use of traditional psychiatric drugs like benzos.