Experience with ketamine therapy for depression

[Chris Timothy]

If there are still grand epiphanies to be had in the upper realms - which seems to be true, for me at least, about once a month for the dissociatives - then that's to be accepted. But pushing it beyond into diminishing returns, into that lovely feeling of cultivating onset Alzheimer's, just gets old, and it feels quite natural to seek out the win/win situation this protocol seems to provide. I'd argue split behaviour is a result from not seeing this clearly, rather than ketamine being inherently some kind of trap.

Though I say this as someone having never had an abusive relationship with ketamine in particular. I can't speak to the conditioning involved there.

 

[Vastness]

^ Would be very interested to hear what grand epiphanies you're having when travelling those upper realms of K-space. My own experience with dissociatives has been that they consistently overpromise and underdeliver as far as such things go...

 

[Chris Timothy]

I have no desire to derail this thread even more, but let's just say that when I write high-level visionary scientists, they tend to write back. I feel comfortable assigning usefulness to high doses of dissociatives, either therapeutic, artistic or intellectual in nature, if intended as such.

Edit: maybe it's the case that it works to the extent it counterbalances the underpromise of a persistently gloomy mood. If so then a successful microdosing protocol would void its use. This is speculation.

 

[Vastness]

Is it derailing the thread when we're talking about revelations which benefit one's life, as a result of using ketamine? Surely that's a very on topic diversion, if it is even a diversion.

Anyway, sorry, I have to ask you to be a bit more specific, I'm still not any clearer what you mean. Are you talking metaphorically when you're talking about these "high-level visionary scientists" or are you describing your actual social circle? Do you mean to say you're involved in some kind of research regarding the usefulness of these substances in therapy or otherwise?

Can you give some specific examples of realisations that you've had while under the influence of ketamine, and how this has altered your behaviour since then? Either as a direct result of being on ketamine, or a more gradual realisation from more subtle behavioural changes resulting from being on ketamine ("upper realms" suggests to me a more immersive experience and a higher dose, ie, K-hole or close to it, but perhaps that isn't what you meant).

Perhaps I'm taking your words too literally, but in the absence of much rigorous research in this and related topics, I feel some clarity in these areas wouldn't go amiss.

 

[Chris Timothy]

If I have to post my exercise schedule, my social network, my art, the more intimate details of my psyche, and convince you of my general philosophy, then I do feel we're straying away from the topic at hand, yes. I do mean it literally that my insights are apparently useful to some top people, against all odds. There are certain aspects I can be proud of, but I do admit my life is a mess according to most standards, and in need of a little help still. Always work in progress... so maybe I'll get around to setting up shop eventually, in which case I probably don't want anything linked to a drug forum.

You're of course free to be skeptical about any such claims to merit. Though I never meant to imply whatever's encountered in disso space doesn't require sober revision, just like music producers shouldn't do without sober editing. There's a certain technique to it, it's not a matter of simply going with it all the way. Maybe others have yet to learn it, maybe I'm just delusional. I'm fine with leaving that question open, and keeping the focus on the microdosing protocol.

 

[theballboy]

Have read through this thread with great interest. However im looking for a method to cook up a nasal spray. I did try one myself (saline heated with ket) but I imagine it was far from precise and Im not 100% sure what Im doing apart from trying. I only used it really to escape from a dark place i was in (periodically - once every 2 months per say) but ended up picking up an ear infection and a throat infection in the last 2 intakes respectfully (some 8 months after creating the spray which is now finished) so I guess there was bacterial growth due to the lack of any preservative. Anyhue, thanks to the OP for all the qualitative info. I dont have the opportunity to use IV or IM delivery. Could someone maybe signpost me to a 'how to' including 'recipe / quantatites' to try again for the year ahead. Thanks in advance

 

[Chris Timothy]

Alright, round two went much better. I cooked up some CBD oil to knock myself out in the evening, which kept the sleep deprivation to a minimum. Only required one extra nap towards the end of the week to catch up. Sluggishness in the morning was cancelled out by the usual mug of coffee, and by getting a run in early before the ketamine punished the kidneys for it.

I used insufflation. This made for a reorganization of my whole day, since after the 5 minutes of preparing the dose there's 10 minutes of lying down to avoid the drip. So there's only 45 minutes of activity per hour, and the tendency is to make it count. This gave spacing out the advantage of loosening the time restraint, making it desirable in itself.

I found I didn't need to worry about the dose that much. Typically I aimed for 12mg, figuring the maximum recommended dose to be appropriate to compensate for general tolerance and the lack of needle efficiency. It was frustrating to have a stuffy nose block the impact every now and then, but I found it to be no problem to up the dose to 15mg in those cases. Even in general it wasn't a problem to overshoot the dose, anything above 15mg lead to a slight headache. This might have been because I kept my focus on cognitively demanding task, I suppose I can't recommend dose fiddling without any such clear mental target. But assuming one's aiming for optimal performance of some sort, I think the dose is fairly self-regulating. And of course you want low doses so the buzz gets seemingly disconnected from them.

Day six provided some evidence that's indeed the case. The elderly neighbors felt it necessary to cram all their chainsawing chores in a single day, at an excruciatingly slow pace. I couldn't concentrate, figured leaving the place would be impractical considering administration and urination, and at the end I was rendered quite mad and tempted to throw a party just to drown out the nerve-rattling horror with music. But I endured it, for science. It goes to show that at day six I was running more on behaviour patterns than on the ketamine. The doses themselves didn't quite do it.

This time I had procured two grams of S-ketamine, as I wanted to try out a high dose combo with DXM first. I noticed no ill effects having it preceding the microdose regime, other than that day one wasn't as mind-blowing as it was the first time around. It was worth it, but not sure whether I would repeat considering the total kidney load.

So with plenty of ketamine in store, I did take my time with the spacing out. Day three had 1h15 spacings, day four 1h30, etc.. I allowed some flexibility within, figuring that as long as the next day had a greater total sum of spacings than the previous one, I was going at least in the desired direction of zero doses a day. So by the next week I had used slightly over one gram, and was down to five doses a day, at which point I started counting down that number instead of counting up spacing. Which wasn't a problem at that point, novelty had worn off after a week, and I felt physically tired of hydrating so much. If I had to do it again, I would aim for getting down to one or zero doses by the end of the first week. For which one gram should indeed be enough.

The psychological results are impressive. I had zero desire for weed or alcohol or vegging out in front of crap on youtube. Less zoning out while reading, and improved capacity to cope with pains. Not quite the effect on memory I had hoped it to have, but can't complain. I would have liked to see how long these effects persist, but now there's suddenly this heat wave in Europe. I can't think straight above 30°C, so it messes with the behaviour patterns again. Creating a stress-free cocoon should again be emphasized: any sleep deprivation, chainsaw olympics and global heating disrupts the sinking in of the changes.

So that's been enough ketamine for the summer. I might try a third time later this year with optimized planning and timing, depending on how much the mood changes persist.


Edit: I should also mention a few physical side-effects towards the end. I had an irregular heartbeat a couple of times, and some bizarre arm muscle twitching once. Nothing major or worrying though. The kidney load is still the scariest. So sports drink could be considered next time, to make sure there's no water fatigue.

 

[Foreigner]

I think trip reports in this thread should be confined to their relationship to ketamine and depression. The philosophical/spiritual content can be discussed elsewhere. This thread has grown larger over the years and my wish is to keep it as concise as possible, so that it remains easily referenced, rather than having to dig through many pages of tangential content to find facts.

 

[Foreigner]

So how is your health nowadays?
Did you get any permanent effects or are you still doing some regular ketamine cycles?

My health is terrible now. I have a waxing and waning auto-immune disease that tries to kill me periodically, which is what it's currently trying to do. This has all kinds of deleterious effects on my psyche and well being.

I believe ketamine healed the subset of my depression that it was meant to. It repaired a deeply traumatic brain/psychology loop as well as gifted me with some other positive features that I mentioned earlier in the thread. Although I have no medical imagining to confirm it, I do strongly believe that it healed something structural at the time because my cognition changed permanently and for the better.

I am not free of depression for other reasons now, but that particular subset of trauma-brain still feels resolved. Unfortunately, my life is very unlucky in the health department so a variety of other complex traumas are currently ongoing and never ending, and I have to contend with those in other ways.

 

[Foreigner]

My attention was drawn back here tonight, so I thought I'd post an update, which will be a mix of medical protocol and personal story. My last post was September 2019, it's now 2022. Three years later. My health is magnitudes better now. I discovered a novel treatment for my disease and I have been in deep remission since April 2022. I'm resuming life activities that I haven't been able to fully do since 2015. So a major drag on my life is being eliminated, and I am cautiously optimistic. "Cautiously" because remission may not last, but if I get to 1 year of remission without any major gyrations, I will assume that this new method is golden as I have never made it 1 year before.

I resumed using psychedelic treatments for my mental health approximately one month ago, when my physical health reached a suitable threshold to tolerate it. When I was very physically ill, I had no physical resources to spare so even microdosing exhausted me.

I currently use ketamine intermittently now, as well as whole psilocybin mushrooms. I don't use them simultaneously, and I microdose both. Ketamine remains in the 10-15mg range, through IM injection. Mushrooms are 100mg or less. These seem to keep my mental health even keel. To help my recovery, I also do regular heavy exercise like weight lifting, swimming, long walks and nature hikes. My nutrition is on point, especially when it comes to minerals.

What I'm discovering now, after entering remission, is that I have a huge backlog of trauma and "stuff" that I had to stow away deep within myself in order to survive harrowing physical illness. When one is in survival mode, one doesn't have time to stop, catch their breath, and deeply reflect. I liken this to when you're in the middle of something important, like, say, trying to rescue a person from drowning. All of your energy and spirit are focused on keeping that person alive. Adrenaline is high. Everything is moving fast and you have to be 100% present, because one wrong move and it's bad news. Then you rescue the person, they're fine, and you go home. When you get home, you finally have a mental breakdown and sob for hours.

This is what is called healthy dissociation. Everybody does it. You stow something on the back burner because you have to, and then you unstow it later when you've reached safety. In my case, it wasn't another person I was trying to keep above water, it was myself.

So what I'm finding is that, now that I am actually safe and not threatened with being killed by a physical illness every day, I've become mentally and emotionally unstable. It's not 10 out of 10 bad, but it's like... HOLY SHIT, I SURVIVED. WHAT WAS ALL THAT BACK THERE? HOW DID I SURVIVE THAT? I CAN'T BELIEVE I WENT THROUGH ALL THAT. AM I REALLY HERE? FUCK FUCK FUCK.

And that's where psychedelics are helping me. To keep this topical, I will talk just about ketamine. I am doing 10-15mg by IM injection 1-2x weekly, usually in the evening. I accidentally titrated my original solution wrong and ended up IM'ing 50-75mg one evening, and I had a total meltdown. I felt like I was being pulled out of my body (dissociation) and it reminded me of all of the times I was on death's door and barely in the world. I was inconsolable and a friend had to come stay with me overnight. So I had to take a break and then return to microdosing at a later date. Now I seem okay. This is why I can't handle heroic doses of anything anymore. Where most people enjoy the "out of this world" feeling, I am desperate to feel in the world.

Small dosing is really helping me come to terms with my inner world. You know... the average person will immediately empathize with you if you say that you are traumatized from almost dying. But what most people won't understand is that there is trauma from not dying. Imagine, if you will, knowing with almost 100% certainty, with all your heart, that you're for sure going to die at some point in the not too distant future because your prognosis is terrible. You then construct a whole inner landscape based on the fact that you will be ending. Your whole world view, the way you relate to people, the way you take action in life, the things you prioritize, it all molds to the reality of impending death. It becomes a way of being.

Now imagine suddenly finding out that you're actually going to live.

Yes, of course you celebrate. But you also grieve, hardcore... because now there is this expansiveness of time in front of you, and a whole world of possibilities that you were not even prepared to deal with. To use an analogy, it's like grieving the fact that you didn't die. As weird as that sounds. I feel like a foreigner (no pun intended) trying to re-learn how to be in the world. Like I came back from the dead.

Ketamine is helping me with this. It's not only repairing the trauma brain, it's also granting gentle novelty so that I can become accustomed to the new reality that is in front of me. I still assert that ketamine's main benefit is for neurological changes associated with PTSD, whether it is simple or complex. It will not fix things like existential or situational depression. If your job sucks and you're depressed about it, ketamine won't help you. It has to be more like... your safety or very life has been in imminent danger in a sharp instance, or over the long term. Or you witnessed someone else's life being in danger. We're talking actual trauma -- the kind where adrenaline is high, hypervigilance is off the charts, and your poor human brain becomes like a deer in headlights, unable to process the immensity of it. So it doesn't try to process it at all. Your mind just splits off the full awareness of the event, and the physical brain obeys this command and shrinks back / down-regulates its own neurons so that you are blunted to reality. It's all self-protective, it's all about "getting away" from the thing that caused this. This serves you, to get you through the trauma, but once the trauma is long gone you are still brain dead and stuck in that configuration. Ketamine repairs the great web and helps your mind bloom again.

I'm concerned that many of the ketamine clinics appearing in modern medicine's "psychedelic therapy" world are using heroic doses, sterile environments, and charging obscene amounts of money. Don't get me wrong, if it's a choice between suicide and doing it their way, then just do it their way. But I personally would not be able to handle it. I obtain black market ketamine from a reliable source and I turn it into IM injections myself -- carefully. (If there is demand for the tech for this, I will make a post about it.)

A lot of these clinics are de facto IV k-holing patients and I'm not convinced that shell shocking a traumatized brain in this manner is appropriate. I think if you are deeply and irrevocably suicidal and you experience a k-hole, the psychological effect is shamanic and gives you a pseudo-death/life-reset experience. It makes you die without truly dying, which satisfies the suicidal mind-loop. That holds meaning. But... in terms of neurophysiological therapy, I am skeptical.

The institutions should not gatekeep this medicine. It shouldn't be super expensive. There should not be obscene profiteering. Ketamine's patent expireda long time ago. It's as simple as taking enough ketamine that you feel a VERY mild buzz without getting high. This repairs your brain. They need to begin trusting every day people to self-administer this and stop the proprietary crap through hospitals and outpatient clinics. I don't need a nurse to give me ketamine. I don't want a nurse to give me ketamine. When I do ketamine I require all human beings to go away.

Thank you for reading.

 

[Chris Timothy]

I'd like to respond but it's awkward because I've just closed off a summer in which I used a heap of O-PCE just for fun, which doesn't really harmonize with this thread. I messed up in the end, sleep skipped, delusion set in, angry neighbours again etc.. but nevertheless it serendipidously led me to integrate some trauma.

I suppose for the clinician that's an annoying perk of ketamine & co, that even if you abuse it, it might work anyway, heh.

I also suppose I should be curious whether instead of aiming for highs I can use more constructively.

My life still has problems and might need an intelligent ketamine protocol. Let's say I'm trying one now, just letting steam off on Sundays I suppose, but we'll see.